| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
ForgivenCreation 
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: WD Generator to 77 F250 Regualtor
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 6:50pm |
How do wire this up? The only one labeled is F for I would assume Field. The one below I have no clue and the one on the back goes to the brushes inside I believe.   
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 790
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 7:06pm |
Hmmm... I don't think that is a good plan; according to my Ford manual it looks like the Ford regulator sources the Field current whereas the Allis-Chalmers regulators sink the field current.
In other words, your generator is expecting the regulator to provide the ground for the field, and the Ford regulator is expecting the generator/alternator to provide the ground.
Your generator is set up as an "A" circuit and the Ford is a "B" circuit.
Unless I am reading the schematic wrong, which is always a possibility 
|
|
ForgivenCreation
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 7:11pm |
Here is the original that was on there. In the picture battery/ammeter would be far right, center was the one I don't know that went below the field post and the far left was the one on the rear of the generator. The field post went to ground. 
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81338
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 7:29pm |
That is for an Alternator with an External Voltage regulator... Will not work... You have to be before 1965 probabaly to get a Generator..
Are you going with 6 volts or 12 volts ?? Generator on a 1950 tractor is only about 8 amps.. You need a SPECIFIC regulator of LOW AMP generators... Look for one that is RATED at 9 amps..
Internet---- Ford began using alternators in their trucks in 1965, with the exception of trucks from 1964 and earlier, which still used generators. The C3SZ10316A alternator regulator was used from 1963 to 1973, and was replaced by the D4TZ10316A in 1974. Alternators became standard equipment on all Fords and Mercurys in August 1964, including Mustangs
Edited by steve(ill) - 27 Apr 2024 at 7:34pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
ForgivenCreation
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 7:40pm |
Ok since the ford one will not work. It's of my 77 f250. The one terminal that is rusted off went to the down and I would assume strapped to the part with the flathead. That is the only one as seem on the bottom that is isolated like that. Can I just run a wire out from the current rusted off connector to battery? I don't see why not.  
|
|
ForgivenCreation
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 7:56pm |
|
|
|
ForgivenCreation
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 8:14pm |
|
Does the field go to ground like they had it before?
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81338
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 9:52pm |
If you ground the "F" wire, the generator will go to FULL CHARGE... You should have 3 terminals and need to see how they are marked...
I dont know if you are 12v, or 6 v... - or + ground.....
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 790
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 9:52pm |
 ForgivenCreation wrote:
Here is the original that was on there.
In the picture battery/ammeter would be far right, center was the one I don't know that went below the field post and the far left was the one on the rear of the generator.
The field post went to ground... |
This is, of course, not the original equipment for a WD, so we are at best only able to guess as to just what it is that you have here.
IF your regulator is functional (and I doubt that it is) and IF the field was actually connected to ground then I have no idea what the generator configuration is. Or did you mean that the field post on the generator was connected to ground? Either way it makes no sense.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81338
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 9:59pm |
|
I would say there is a 99.9% chance that the regulator is no good.. I have seen regulators that are 10 x better than that physically, that did not work properly..
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
ForgivenCreation
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 10:02pm |
|
Thank yall for helping me out. Sadly I ran out of gas, figures.
Here is the setup, the regulator has no marking.
The post of the side that is higher has 4 or 5 F stamped around it. Looking inside through a vent this F post goes to the outer coil winding.
The one below that has no marking but I will assume it's A as most generators seem to have this configuration. This also has a wire inside but I can't see where it goes.
The one on the back of the generator goes to the brushes inside.
The furthest I have got is the two similar looking contactors in the regulator close, sometimes opening and closing rapidly with mini sparks. The end one connected to the battery doesn't seem to close unless forced close.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81338
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 10:03pm |
|
actually the generator dont look too good either.. Do you have a volt meter to test ? .... Start the tractor and measure OUTPUT across the "A" and "F" terminals on the generator... Without a battery connection, a 6V will read about 15v and a 12v will read close to 30v...... If you dont see ANYTHING, then the generator needs repaired or replaced.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81338
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 10:14pm |
|
Is it 12v or 6v ? What is the GOAL, to get original or just make it charge ? The CHEAP way is to charge the battery with a charger in the garage once a week or as needed. You dont need a "generator" on the tractor except to keep the belt tight... If you generator and regulator are both crap, and you DO want to charge... you might consider a 12v alternator with internal regulator... cheaper and better in the long run... BUT.. it needs to be a 12v system... easy to convert over if it is 6v right now.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
ForgivenCreation
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 10:34pm |
|
I'm honestly not sure if it's positive or negative ground. I would like it to charge but who knows if that can be done cheap. I do have a vw alternator I could try. I'll have to see if it's 6v or 12v tomorrow.
So I start it unhook the battery and read across the terminals on the side?
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81338
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Apr 2024 at 10:37pm |
|
Yes... all you have to do with a generator is SPIN IT and it will put out voltage.. Leave all the wires off... start tractor and let it idle.. See i you have any voltage between the two terminals on the side.... "A" and "F"...... refer to the drawing in the post 3-4 above this.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
PaulB
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Rocky Ridge Md
Points: 4753
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Apr 2024 at 6:30am |
|
Is it really too much trouble to take the number off of your generator and get the correct regulator to go with it???
|
|
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 790
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Apr 2024 at 9:00am |
ForgivenCreation wrote:
...The post of the side that is higher has 4 or 5 F stamped around it. Looking inside through a vent this F post goes to the outer coil winding... |
This is almost certainly the Field
ForgivenCreation wrote:
...The one below that has no marking but I will assume it's A as most generators seem to have this configuration. This also has a wire inside but I can't see where it goes... |
Do not assume anything yet; I was assuming that you have an "A" circuit generator but from what you describe this could actually be a "B" circuit
ForgivenCreation wrote:
The one on the back of the generator goes to the brushes inside... |
This is the armature (A)
ForgivenCreation wrote:
The furthest I have got is the two similar looking contactors in the regulator close, sometimes opening and closing rapidly with mini sparks. The end one connected to the battery doesn't seem to close unless forced close. |
The one that doesn't close is the "Cutout" relay, it isn't supposed to close until the generator is putting out enough voltage to actually charge the battery.
The Volkswagen alternator is probably 12 Volts.
Do as Steve suggested above, disconnect ALL wires, run it, and test for voltage at the generator.
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 790
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Apr 2024 at 9:30am |
After digging through my archives (piles of junk papers) I see reference to a style of generator having three terminals similar to yours; this is called an 'insulated' generator and needs a return wire for grounding as it does not rely on the vehicle frame for grounding.
If that is what you have, then each brush is connected to one of the terminals, the third terminal will then be the field of course.
Run the engine and test as Steve suggested, but also test for voltage between the terminals rather than just testing to ground.
Edit: If you can take Ohm readings of the generator that would be helpful. A) Test between the Field terminal and ground (I think this should have continuity with a very low resistance value, probably less-than 10 Ohms) B) Test between the other two terminals (I think this should also have continuity with quite low value) C) Test between the field terminal and the other two terminals D) Test between each of the non-field terminals and ground
Please report your findings if you can, as this would help us to help you with your wiring needs.
Edited by Les Kerf - 28 Apr 2024 at 10:38am
|
|
ForgivenCreation
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Apr 2024 at 10:34pm |
Well... today was a mess. I can't figure out this generator, couple that with horrendous running issues it was a long day. Tested the generator with no voltage and everything unhooked but the battery lead,I think I had the battery disconnected then. Later on I got the tractor running and had it revved up when all the sudden sparks went flying and my red wire was white hot and melting away along with the insides of the regulator. Thankfully the red wire acted as a fuse. So somehow the generator despite having everything but the battery disconnected starting charging FULL POWER. Then of course my instinct was to disconnect Bat +.... it was still running SO THEN I just started ripping plug wires off, the mag really shocks when it works  This whole time the regulator looked like someone was welding on it Also this generator has no model numbers.
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 790
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Apr 2024 at 10:58pm |
ForgivenCreation wrote:
...This whole time the regulator looked like someone was welding on it |
Yup, that is exactly what you were doing!
ForgivenCreation wrote:
Also this generator has no model numbers. |
With no numbers then you really need to refrain from welding on it and take the Ohm readings on the generator in order figure out what you have, then maybe we can determine what you need for a regulator.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81338
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Apr 2024 at 11:10pm |
|
WE said NO WIRES ON THE GENERATOR... That means NO BATTERY WIRE "On the generator".... You dont need the generator to START the engine.. The STARTER needs power, but the GENERATOR should have NO WIRES ON IT... and dont let the BARE WIRES touch the frame.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
ForgivenCreation
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Apr 2024 at 11:30pm |
|
Yeah I'll see if I get back around to it tomorrow and get some readings.
However I am not sure how the generator starting charging the battery.... Everything was disconnected from the generator to the regulator.
In an originally positive ground system could this happen? Maybe a wire touched ground and kicked it on. My pops and I tried later doing this with each wire while testing for any sort of reading with nothing.
Edited by ForgivenCreation - 28 Apr 2024 at 11:33pm
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81338
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2024 at 8:25am |
The generator case is grounded so that could be one side... All you need is a battery wire touching the "A" terminal and the generator will go WIDE OPEN CHARGE, without the regulator... Hopefully the generator is still OK... You might have proved the generator can charge. ??
another option is the battery wire was laying loose by the generator and shorted to ground and caused the "HOT".
Edited by steve(ill) - 29 Apr 2024 at 8:27am
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 790
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2024 at 8:56am |
ForgivenCreation wrote:
However I am not sure how the generator starting charging the battery.... Everything was disconnected from the generator to the regulator. |
How do you know that the generator was actually charging rather than the battery simply feeding back at high amperage? Was the battery still connected to the ammeter and the rest of the system?
ForgivenCreation wrote:
In an originally positive ground system could this happen? |
You do not have anything even close to original equipment here, and polarity wouldn't matter even if you did. You have something wired incorrectly, and that is why Steve emphasized about having no wires connected.
ForgivenCreation wrote:
Maybe a wire touched ground and kicked it on. My pops and I tried later doing this with each wire while testing for any sort of reading with nothing. |
ForgivenCreation wrote:
Yeah I'll see if I get back around to it tomorrow and get some readings. |
Please, please, do NOT attempt to take any more readings with the tractor running, we need to figure out how your generator is configured internally. Someone has scabbed a completely different generator and regulator on your tractor, and we need to find out if there is any possibility of it being usable.
Please, take the ohm readings that I suggested above. If you do not know how to do that, either find someone who does, or post a picture of your meter and we can talk you through the process.
|
|
ForgivenCreation
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2024 at 2:22pm |
|
Alright.... I found marking after sanding and washing it.
Turns out it's a early 60s Ford 12v generator
Part# FAS10139B
Sorry about not seeing that earlier. I had to take the thing off and inspect to see what was the deal. The unmarked post below the F terminal looks to have a G stamped in it. The case is so rust there I can't tell.
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 790
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2024 at 3:41pm |
ForgivenCreation wrote:
Alright.... I found marking after sanding and washing it.
Turns out it's a early 60s Ford 12v generator
Part# FAS10139B... |
Nice! Now we are getting somewhere. You still need to do the Ohm tests in order to determine if you killed the generator with your little welding episode.
Since this is a Ford unit it may well be a "B" circuit, in which case your F250 voltage regulator might actually work (although without current limiting).
But first, we NEED TO KNOW what circuitry is actually still viable (if any) inside the generator.
Please, help us so we can help you. Do the Ohm tests.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81338
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2024 at 4:07pm |
Your regulator is from 1977.. It is for an alterntor... Prior to 1965 FORD used Generators with the 3 terminals ( one on the back)... The drawing below shows your GENERATOR in the top drawing... and the REGULATOR for the ALTERNATOR in the lower drawing..
That generator is an odd ball.. "NORMALLY" that terminal below the "F" is the "A" terminal and goes to the "G" terminal on the regulator... In this case YOUR Generator that "G" terminal is the GROUND.... the "A" terminal is on the back... I dont know if you could make this work with a "GENERIC" voltage regulator... but it will not work with your 1977 truck reg.
Edited by steve(ill) - 29 Apr 2024 at 4:11pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
WF owner
Orange Level
Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 4669
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2024 at 5:04pm |
|
When I see the price of new regulators, why would you not buy a new one instead of trying to cobble up one that wasn't meant for this application.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81338
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2024 at 5:50pm |
The FIRST thing would be to prove the Generator works.... With the engine running, you should have voltage out of the "A" terminal on the BACK of the generator.. The other side would be ground ... the "G" terminal (ground) on the side.. Is possible the CASE is not grounded on this type generator..
I would also check between the "A" (armature) on the back and the "F" (field) on the side for voltage.
Edited by steve(ill) - 29 Apr 2024 at 5:58pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
ForgivenCreation
Bronze Level
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Location: West Coast USA
Points: 57
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2024 at 6:33pm |
|
I would like to paint this thing before I put it back on. I can't get it to motor at all no matter the configuration of wiring I try .After many youtube videos I guess I'll ask on here.
What wires goes where to make it motor and polarize it.
|
|
