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V-twin Honda mower won’t run when warm.

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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2022 at 6:58am
Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:


 had a look.... #1 in the right dwg...

/carburetor
..
hopefully you CAN remove and plumb up a 'bypass'......

Kohlers were(are?) bad for 'gumming' up the innerds of the solenoid valve(varnish from E10 gas...). quik test is to remove the rubber tip and reinstall it. no rubber, no stopping the gas..

I may have said all this before ??



Jay these don’t have a rubber tip.
The plunger is also removable. I’m gonna remove it, screw the outside part back in and no electric to it and give it a try.
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2022 at 8:54pm
I removed the fuel solenoid plunger and started the mower. I let it run for about 20 minutes. I noticed the fuel filter started to look empty and then it sputtered and died.
I quick checked compression. The left had a quick 120 lbs. the right built a slow 90 lbs.
I will check them cool tomorrow and see if there is any difference.
I’m wondering if a weak cylinder could cause low vacuum and cause the fuel pump to quit?
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2022 at 9:56pm
i would buy a small electric pump for $10. and bypass the vacuum pump.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2022 at 6:24am
re: a weak cylinder could cause low vacuum and cause the fuel pump to quit?

maybe, if that's the cylinder that the pump is connected to. but that's a long shot.
more likely the rubber 'vacuum' hose is not '100%' perfect and tight fitting. add a little heat and vibration and you could lose vacuum and then gas ,over time.
I've replaced a lot of fuelpumps on riders with B&S engines over the decades, have to be CAREFUL removing the hoses from them ! Otherwise you break the 'spigot'...... I now use a 'trim removal tool', looks like bent screwdriver with slotted face. Great at GENTLY pushing the hoses off. Last batch of pumps came from Banggood.com WITH fuel filters AND clips. This ones are screwed together so can be 'inspected'..unlike the US welded ones.
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2022 at 9:25pm
Update
I installed an electric fuel pump. It started and ran perfect for about 5 to 10 minutes and dies as it has been.
I was very unhappy.
I started checking for spark and it was very weak and sometimes not at all.
I even grabbed the plug and didn’t get hit.
I started watching a video on how to test 4 prong coils. It said unhook the ignition wires and hook them together and see if it has spark. I did and it started right up and ran perfect for a couple seconds. I hooked them back up and it would try to start but not start.
Again I hooked the two together and it started instantly but only for a couple seconds.
There has to be a sensor or something getting hot and causing it.
I see an oil sending unit but it has no wires to it.
I don’t see an oil switch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2022 at 6:06am
sadly, it's really pointing to a bad 'coil pack'. One that when heated, fails, then once cooled 'repairs' itself. In my case one was DEAD. Kohler offers a kit( to old skool mags and a some wires. Honda may offer the same 'repair kit' ?
Depending on the MFR of the rider, they may/may not use an oil sensor. While the Kohler was wired for it, the Cub dash wasn't. A proper wiring diagram for your rider will tell the story.
It's really a TERRIBLE environment for 'electronic mags' to be used. LOTS of high heat, hot-cold 'cycles', vibrations, EMI (noise)...really amazing they work at all.

Cub Cadet is made by MTD, so you can get manual from them. If you really like the unit,contact Honda or local small engine place, ask/buy the  'regular' coils.


Edited by jaybmiller - 01 Jun 2022 at 6:11am
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2022 at 7:11am
Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

sadly, it's really pointing to a bad 'coil pack'. One that when heated, fails, then once cooled 'repairs' itself. In my case one was DEAD. Kohler offers a kit( to old skool mags and a some wires. Honda may offer the same 'repair kit' ?
Depending on the MFR of the rider, they may/may not use an oil sensor. While the Kohler was wired for it, the Cub dash wasn't. A proper wiring diagram for your rider will tell the story.
It's really a TERRIBLE environment for 'electronic mags' to be used. LOTS of high heat, hot-cold 'cycles', vibrations, EMI (noise)...really amazing they work at all.

Cub Cadet is made by MTD, so you can get manual from them. If you really like the unit,contact Honda or local small engine place, ask/buy the  'regular' coils.


I believe this motor should run on one cylinder. If a coil is bad the other should run.
Hard for me to believe all four the (original two and the brand new two from Honda are all bad.)
Also when it dies when hot unhook the ignition wires and hook the motor wires to each other and it fires and runs perfect but only for one second. I believe it runs this short time because of one of those wires that are unhooked , puts voltage to the fuel solenoid.


Edited by Thad in AR. - 01 Jun 2022 at 7:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2022 at 8:40am
I commend you for not giving up.

Fuel solenoid to my knowledge  physically blocks off the main jet
when power is removed. All the YouTube videos  say remove a rubber plunger cap or
cut the plunger stem. Then you know it is not in your way. I would hook up the wire also, in case the engine is so smart it needs to sense the solenoid current draw.
Ya never know. Or at least until you get your degree in Honda small engine technology.

I was looking for info on the 4 wire coils, could not get much info. Can you post a link to the stuff you found. I was thinking like Jay, oh no, 4 wires, they made it "smart".

I assume the carb has a drain plug. If you remove the plug and turn on the new fuel pump, do you get gas constantly? My last adventure with a mower was a plugged elbow at the tank. Thiis would prove that the pump is reliably delivering, and the needle is
passing fuel. It is possible that sometimes the needle sticks shut. How to check for that, uhmm, maybe put your finger on the drain hole to let the float rise, then remove, repeat and repeat. If you loosen the drain plug so it just dribbles, it should do so for as long as there is gas in the tank.

Being down 30lbs on compression test is not good. The engine has mechanical problems. Try the old squirt of oil and retest. Rings, head gasket or poorly seating valve.
Does it have a compression release gizmo? More "smart" stuff.

And then the spark system. You are up against a marginal design, not enough info about how it works and how to diagnose... Good luck on that.

Honda engines, are they losing their reputation?






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Dave H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2022 at 10:28am
Yeah, you have really busted your buns on this one.  I run a KAW V on the Z but it is a 1999.  It has two old style coil packs with just the spark plug wire coming out and one spade for the kill wire.  I recently slapped a new pair (either amazon or ebay) on since one was not ohming our t right.  when I hit the start the thing blew out a small cloud and has been running like a race horse since.

I been wondering all along if a bunch of that fancy techno crap could be trashed and slap a couple of the good ole days coils on it.

There has got to be the info out there some where,

Just spent some time on you tube.  Found a video titled (Kohler CV25S Ignition Repair (eliminating the external module).  It shows taking all the smart stuff off and strapping two of the old style coil packs on with no mods other than yanking the new fangled stuff and putting two used coils of the old style on.  I recommend dialing that video up and checking it out. 


Edited by Dave H - 01 Jun 2022 at 10:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2022 at 11:00am
re: Hard for me to believe all four the (original two and the brand new two from Honda are all bad.)

Not had for me, if it's a bad design/build from the drafting table, they ALL can be 'bad',only a matter of time and location.
I know about the Kohler Koils.. Cub Cadet only had them 2 years, then NLA,so the 'retro kit' was 'invented'. Since I didn't need the rider, sold it as it WITH FULL DISCLOSURE about the problem. Guy bought it, ripped out engine put a 'normal' B&S into it.
You get A+++ for effort though !!!
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2022 at 12:28pm
For parts for MTD try www.ghlenssurplus.com or www.theshelbymall.com. They get all parts from MTD and have them in stock at a reasonable price.
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2022 at 8:46pm
When I got home I pulled a cover, gas tank and some other parts to get a better look at the wiring harness.
I traced that ignition wire towards the rectifier where there were two relays. I knew of them but assumed they were for the charging.
I replaced the one the ignition ran to. It now runs perfect. I mowed for several hours with it.
Thank you each for the help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2022 at 9:06pm
Thumbs Up

I wonder if that was all that was wrong with mine,  I'll tell the guy that has it, of course he's never mowed in the afternoon when it's hot, he's usually drunk and passed out by then.LOL



Edited by Kansas99 - 01 Jun 2022 at 9:08pm
"LET"S GO BRANDON!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertjoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2022 at 9:37pm
 Well, Thad,,I been following your thread and rooting for you knowing what  great shade tree you are,,,
 I was just going to suggest like ole Dave H had in mind as that is what I done with the Grandson's little Side by Side. My son bought it for him not even a year old and it got to where it would not run and after calling the vendor in next town,,,he wasn't much hellp cause he told me,,Those little Chinese Quads got all kinds of  chit like horn, lights electric start even a "Remote Safety Stop" For parents to watch Junior,,,,He told me there is SO MUCH that can go wrong all they can do is start replacing parts til they find the culprit,,,BUT,they will NOT remove the parts already installed and their flat rate is $90 per hour,,Jimminey,,,!!
 Anyway, there is a dude on YouTube that shows you how to cut all thet extra BS wiring and "Extras" and install what he calls a "PIT BIKE" kit that installs ONLY what the engine needs to start and run! I removed all the factory wiring and made my own simple wiring harness with a push start button and a toggle switch kill,,, It now  runs flawlessly and starts every time!!  Don't got no horn, lights remote kill nuttin,,I even decided to do away with the charging system and just charge the battery every week. When you remove all that new fangled stuff ,,,what is left is a chinese clone for a good ole Briggs And Strattton.  Glad you got your mower going,,,I know how bad you was wantin to cut some grass,,,,,LOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2022 at 6:09am
You replaced a relay and that fixed it?
I wouldn't even think there would be a relay in there.

Perhaps they should retire the entire flywheel magnetic
iron coil design. The added complications of variable timing.




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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2022 at 7:18am
Originally posted by BrianC BrianC wrote:

You replaced a relay and that fixed it?
I wouldn't even think there would be a relay in there.

Perhaps they should retire the entire flywheel magnetic
iron coil design. The added complications of variable timing.





And no mention of it in the book or Cub website either.
Honda tech it top Secret
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2022 at 8:18am
Way to go Thad.

Gees what is next, an ecm port on the new fangled lawn mowers?  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2022 at 11:00am
Your right Thad.... I tried to GOOGLE it several times as you added more info... Seems like Honda and CUB are pretty Stingy with their access to wire diagrams.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2022 at 11:43am
what 's the cub model ? I'll ask MTD Canada for the wiring
I'm super HAPPY it's 'up and running' and 'curious like my cat' to see how/why the relay makes it work.
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