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V-twin Honda mower won’t run when warm.

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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 May 2022 at 10:00pm
This is on a cub cadet zero turn.
It starts right up and mows perfect for a few minutes then dies and won’t restart.
After 20 minutes it starts right back up. What I’ve done so far.
Changed both coils and spark plugs. Cleaned gas tank, lines and carburetor. I’ve ran it with the gas cap loose.
Tested the fuel pump.
Added new non ethanol when I cleaned the carb.
I’ve cleaned every electrical connection on it.
I’m wondering if maybe a valve starts sticking when it gets warm?
I can’t tell if it’s running out of gas but I truly believe it’s electrical.
When it tries to start when warm it sounds like the timing is off and has a bit of spark knock and an occasional backfire. When cool it starts and runs perfect.
I’ve also wondered about the fuel solenoid.?
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 10:19pm
You COULD have a failing fuel solenoid.  You could ALSO have a fuel line with interior lining breaking down, and being drawn shut... probably between fuel pump and tank or selector valve.  Engine and driveline heat warms it up, softens it, and it draws in and constricts the fuel flow enough to cause it to run lean, and eventually stall.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Dave H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 7:04am
I don't think you mentioned changing the fuel filter, but you probably did?

My V Twin Kaw does that popping and pfarting right before it lights up, has for years.

Could try taking a fuel hose, stick it in some gas an hook the other end straight to the fuel pump and try it when it won't start.  If you use clear tubing you could see how/if that pump is sucking.

When she is dead in the water you could check to see if the fuel solenoid is getting juice.

What a puzzle.


Edited by Dave H - 15 May 2022 at 7:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 7:11am
To eliminate the fuel solenoid, you could carefully pull off the 'rubber' tip,then reinstall the solenoid. This allows gas to flow '24/7'. If the engine still dies then NOT the solenoid, so put the rubber  tip back on. Have seen 3-4 Kohlers do this..'bad' gas gums up the solenoid rubber....

Not low on oil  ??
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 8:11am
This has no rubber tip on the solenoid rod. Just a metal taper. It has a removable plunger. I could try that.
I can not find a low oil switch on this motor.
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 8:26am
pull a spark plug and see if it is sparking when hot.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

pull a spark plug and see if it is sparking when hot.

Got two hours out of it this morning before it quit.
I did test spark with a screw driver. It seems to be firing but possibly intermittent?
Broad daylight hard to see the spark.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 2:01pm
Adjust the valves.  Gets hot and clearances are closing up where valves are likely staying partially Open.
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Thad in AR. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

Adjust the valves.  Gets hot and clearances are closing up where valves are likely staying partially Open.

I believe this is exactly what’s happening.
Will adjust them tonight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 7:29pm
i have worked on several Briggs, and smaller Chinees engines that did not run when hot.. Valves too tight is a common problem.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 5:42am
I pulled the valve covers last night. The valves were in spec per the manual.
I reckon I’m on to the next phase of this nightmare.
Gonna get some marvel mystery oil and run in the gas and see if a little top end lube may help.
She was able to mow 2 hrs without it dying last weekend but it was much cooler that day.
Pulled the plugs.
They look good but possibly a little lean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 6:35am
OK, dumb questions but......

is there GREAT airflow from 'blower' past cylinders ? NO remnants of 'mouse house' constructions ?

is oil level  'at the mark' ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 9:16am
jay may be on to something.. Maybe the carb gets hot and gasoline  VAPOR LOCKS ?  See if adequate air flow around the carb ... no restrictions... no extra covers.. ? .......... assuming you DO have a spark ?
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 11:34am
I had the main cover off to change coils and clean carb.
I also rerouted the gas line Incase of vapor lock which the symptoms remind me of. It has some lower covers around the block and bottom of cylinders/heads. I’m gonna pull those off tonight and check.
I blew air in there but never removed them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 6:22pm
I've seen the remains of a real nice rider burned up cause of a 'mouse CONDO' in the blower  /cooling ductwork. It was soooo packed FULL of 'kindling'....

every spring I remove the covers and blow the KRAP out of neighbour's rider....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 7:55pm
Pulled every cover off tonight. All was clean as new.
Ready for the next try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 8:01pm
dang... I ain't got too many more straws to pull outta my magic hat.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

dang... I ain't got too many more straws to pull outta my magic hat.....
hope you know I appreciate all the help. Never hurts to check these things anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 9:08pm
This wouldn’t happen to be a 20 hp vertical?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by Kansas99 Kansas99 wrote:

This wouldn’t happen to be a 20 hp vertical?

Yes it is
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fjdrill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 9:46pm
coil?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 10:00pm
Thad, i think you do need to VERIFY a good spark next time it is HOT and STOPS... You have to determine if this is a SPARK or GAS problem to move forward.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 11:05pm
make sure the gas cap vents
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 6:39am
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

Thad, i think you do need to VERIFY a good spark next time it is HOT and STOPS... You have to determine if this is a SPARK or GAS problem to move forward.

Steve I believe it has spark. It may be intermittent but it has spark. I pull a plug each time and never are they wet/gas soaked although o believe heat might be the cause.
I’m gonna buy two of those little spark checkers to test it with. Using a screwdriver shows spark to some degree.
Seems to try to run on right cylinder and the left seems to not hit at all when this happens. It tries to start with left plug wire pulled but doesn’t even try with the right wire pulled.
Wondering of it has a weak fuel pump or weak vacuum when warm?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 6:52am
Thad, I wish I could help but I had that exact motor on a landpride razor that did the exact same thing, although it would only do it when it was hot outside, at least 95 or more, if there was no wind then it would do it at lower temp.  I had dual tanks and could switch back and forth and help but not solve, I never figured out what the cause was, but I was almost certain it was a vapor lock issue.  I guess I really gave up because usually it was hot enough out that you didn't want to be on a mower anyways, so it was a excuse.  Mine was new enough that it had the black outer plastic cover, but my neighbor had same mower older red metal cover 20hp and it wouldn't do it.  I was almost at the point of putting a fuel can in the freezer and when it did it pour that fuel in or try rapping the black fuel tanks in white.  I changed fuel line routing checked everything, got nothing.  I don't know if that's your problem but I felt fuel was mine, just never got it figured out.  Have you had this mower a while?  I can't remember now but I think mine started first year or two I had it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 7:13am
ne of those ...be nice to be there to SEE it problems..

hmm 'dies'..
is it a slow, fumbly kinda death or  quick and stopped ?

does the carb have a drain to check if gas is in the bowl when it fails ? Be REAL careful, hot engine, gasoline......

does carb have an 'anit-dieselling' shuttoff solenoid ? Kohlers were nasty to fail('cure' was to remove the rubber tip...) usually you can hear it 'click' on/off with the key being 'on/off'.

hard to believe it's a mag issue, they 'usually' fail hard....eventually.

going to be interesting to see what CURES this PITA !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Kansas99 Kansas99 wrote:

Thad, I wish I could help but I had that exact motor on a landpride razor that did the exact same thing, although it would only do it when it was hot outside, at least 95 or more, if there was no wind then it would do it at lower temp.  I had dual tanks and could switch back and forth and help but not solve, I never figured out what the cause was, but I was almost certain it was a vapor lock issue.  I guess I really gave up because usually it was hot enough out that you didn't want to be on a mower anyways, so it was a excuse.  Mine was new enough that it had the black outer plastic cover, but my neighbor had same mower older red metal cover 20hp and it wouldn't do it.  I was almost at the point of putting a fuel can in the freezer and when it did it pour that fuel in or try rapping the black fuel tanks in white.  I changed fuel line routing checked everything, got nothing.  I don't know if that's your problem but I felt fuel was mine, just never got it figured out.  Have you had this mower a while?  I can't remember now but I think mine started first year or two I had it.
bought in late 2017.
Red main engine color the rest are black.
I do feel that re-routing the fuel line helped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Thad in AR. Thad in AR. wrote:

Originally posted by Kansas99 Kansas99 wrote:

Thad, I wish I could help but I had that exact motor on a landpride razor that did the exact same thing, although it would only do it when it was hot outside, at least 95 or more, if there was no wind then it would do it at lower temp.  I had dual tanks and could switch back and forth and help but not solve, I never figured out what the cause was, but I was almost certain it was a vapor lock issue.  I guess I really gave up because usually it was hot enough out that you didn't want to be on a mower anyways, so it was a excuse.  Mine was new enough that it had the black outer plastic cover, but my neighbor had same mower older red metal cover 20hp and it wouldn't do it.  I was almost at the point of putting a fuel can in the freezer and when it did it pour that fuel in or try rapping the black fuel tanks in white.  I changed fuel line routing checked everything, got nothing.  I don't know if that's your problem but I felt fuel was mine, just never got it figured out.  Have you had this mower a while?  I can't remember now but I think mine started first year or two I had it.
bought in late 2017.
Red main engine color the rest are black.
I do feel that re-routing the fuel line helped.

Has brand new coils.
Dies a slow fumbly kind of death. Spit spider n die.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 5:31pm
The carburetor may be getting hot and causing the VAPOR LOCK... the gas line can contribute to it.... But we have not discussed the gas tank location ?  Is there radiant heat on the bottom of the gas tank ?   Could it use an insulation blanket or baffle from the motor ?
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thad in AR. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

The carburetor may be getting hot and causing the VAPOR LOCK... the gas line can contribute to it.... But we have not discussed the gas tank location ?  Is there radiant heat on the bottom of the gas tank ?   Could it use an insulation blanket or baffle
from the motor ?

The gas tank is under a black cover on the left side to the left of the engine. It sits right over the left rear tire.
Fuel line comes out of the top of the tank ang runs in front of the motor then around the right side of the motor to the fuel pump then to the carb.
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