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AJ 
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 Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 10:21pm |
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Pulled #1 cylinder to compression stroke.
Checked points
Positioned wires
Shot with ether
Nothing. Not even a cough
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AJ
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Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 10:23pm |
   
Edited by AJ - 05 Jan 2017 at 10:26pm
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desertjoe
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Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 10:45pm |
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Hey AJ,,,looks like you got two of the three things necessary for any engine to start,,,but,,,,get your compression testor and run a quick compression test,,,just to eliminate that pesky little possibility,,,,,
looks like you got the points set, wires as should be,,,,,
THEN,,,,we gonna get serious bout this thing,,,,!!!!
Edited by desertjoe - 05 Jan 2017 at 10:46pm
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Dick L
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 4:42am |
With the switch on and every thing together ready to run crank it over slowly by hand holding number one plug wire close to the plug or block. Stop cranking the instant you see the spark.^ Check the inspection hole and you should have the TDC in the center.^ If you do see the TDC line then check how much gap you have between the intake and exhaust valve stem and the rocker arm pad. You should have between .010 and .012. ^
^ what does the spark look like?
^ What is the actual gap?
^ If not on center which side of center? How far do you need to move the crank before you see the line? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do all of the above only after getting the proper timing line in the center of the inspection hole.
Edited by Dick L - 06 Jan 2017 at 4:56am
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Dick L
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 4:53am |
 AJ wrote:
Top Dead Center
Distrubuter pulled out and turned to #1
Cap replaced on distrubuter, wires double checked
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I seem to see fire on the line in the inspection hole rather than TDC or CENTER. You have another line 30º farther. It will never start dead timing to the FIRE line. The FIRE line is what you see with a timing light when running at high idle/wide open.
Re time as you have been doing only do it to the TDC or CENTER line and it will run.
Edited by Dick L - 06 Jan 2017 at 4:57am
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Dick L
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 6:23am |
An added thought---- If you tried to set the valve lash (gap between valve stem and rocker arm) you will need to re set the lash/gap to the actual TDC or CENTER line. (the flywheel can be marked with one or the other but will not be marked with both)
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It will run fine the way the wires are on the distributor but if you want it as they would have come from the factory you would not have the rotor pointing to the original number 2 cylinder terminal. No reason to change it as far as running. The distributors are marked for number one with a lobe, notch or something on the outside with the cap off normally for number one. (intended as a helpful detail only)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is another hand made tool for your tool box to find TDC.
Take a piece of wire about six inches long. Bend a sharp 90º bend 3/4" on one end. Place another 90º bend at the other end about 2" in from the end so it will lay flat on a table. (a square U longer on one end) Placing the 3/4" bend in the spark plug hole holding the wire loosely in the center with the long bend down. Turn the engine until you see the wire stop moving up and start down. The long bend acts as a weight and keeps the short end from turning side ways.
Not to confuse you but cylinder one and four are at TDC at the same time. You can check for TDC with the wire on plug hole 4 if the distributor is in the way. It will be up on the exhaust stroke at the same time as the 1 cylinder is on the compression stroke.
Edited by Dick L - 06 Jan 2017 at 7:11am
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AJ
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:11am |
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Thanks Dick, the line on the flywheel does say FIRE. I dont recall seeing a second line 30 degrees out but I wasnt looking for it either. So if I set the engine at the top of the compression stroke that second line should be visible or very close by on that flywheel? I did time it to that stroke last night and set the distributor to just before spark like was said previously. Never got a crackle out of her. I'm just saying there must be something small I'm missing.
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AJ
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:13am |
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Forgot, on the 30 more degrees you mentioned, does that mean the distributor should be timed 30 degree clockwise or counter clockwise? How do I know what 30 degrees is on the distributor? Guess?
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Dick L
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:17am |
AJ wrote:
Forgot, on the 30 more degrees you mentioned, does that mean the distributor should be timed 30 degree clockwise or counter clockwise? How do I know what 30 degrees is on the distributor? Guess? |
(Re time as you have been doing only do it to the TDC or CENTER line and it will run.)
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Dick L
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:24am |
Dick L wrote:
AJ wrote:
Forgot, on the 30 more degrees you mentioned, does that mean the distributor should be timed 30 degree clockwise or counter clockwise? How do I know what 30 degrees is on the distributor? Guess? |
(Re time as you have been doing only do it to the TDC or CENTER line and it will run.)
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Just start over when you get the actual TDC line in the inspection hole and do the same as before. You will have to lift the distributor out and reset the rotor to point to your number one cylinder terminal. Before locking the distributor down twist it back and fourth watching it spark with power on so you know when they are closed and just ready to open. When you get done you will be able to do it in the dark without a flashlight. Are you old enough to remember math flash cards in school?  |
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:52am |
The official details on that engine are in the Allis service manual I have posted at: http://www.geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdfPage B-C 32 for ignition timing details. Cam shaft timing and valve setting other places. Wants the engine warm for setting the valves at .010". Gerald J.
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desertjoe
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 9:38am |
Gosh,,,I think ole Dick has hit the issue square on,,,,,with the second mARK,,,,  I don't know if can be done on these old tractors,,,but I have done the followin on 6 and 8 cylinder cars and really think will work on these 4 cylinders as well,,,, When you you get the correct mark on the flywheel in the window,,,,verify the piston is at TDC, both valves on #1 are loose,,, check where the distributor rotor is pointing to,,,and just move the #1 wire to THAT position on the distributor cap,,makin sure you can rotate distributor for advance,,,then rewire 1-2-4-3 from there and she will fire up,,,, The engine does not know or care where #1 is just so the wires are in order and in time. BTDT,,,,, Good Luck,,,,I know you must of not got too much sleep these nights,,,,   Hey Dick L,,I really like your idea on the bent wire trick,,cause it frees up YOUR hands for other things while you're doin this,,,,
Edited by desertjoe - 06 Jan 2017 at 9:42am
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AJ
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:20am |
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Well I did a compression check. Now first off the gauge tester I was using I am not confident it was working correctly but if it was here is what i found. Cylinders 1,2,3 are at about 42. Cylinder 4 is at 38. Not sure if that plays a big roll or not. Seems the engine has a little more compression than that but I dont know. Guessing it likely needs rings and a valve job anyway.
Edited by AJ - 06 Jan 2017 at 10:23am
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AJ
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:22am |
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On the TDC line (mine says FIRE) does not line up with the compression stroke. Does that sound right or am I an idiot?
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JD Dan
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:35am |
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Fire won't line up with tdc. Tdc or dc will line up with tdc
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AJ
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:40am |
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So is that TDC mark before or after the FIRE mark?
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Dick L
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:48am |
AJ wrote:
On the TDC line (mine says FIRE) does not line up with the compression stroke. Does that sound right or am I an idiot? |
No it does Not. Your not an idiot! Your confused! I have found flywheels without any visible lines but think someone had sanded the lines off with rust.
If you can not find the TDC line use the wire to get to top dead center and forget the line. I am sure you will find the proper line though when you get TDC with the wire.
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Dick L
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:55am |
AJ wrote:
So is that TDC mark before or after the FIRE mark? |
The fire line is 30º advanced. So that would show first.
The fire line is used to set the magneto in the instructions because it is just where the clock spring starts to wind so it will/can spin the magneto rotor when it passes TDC to make spark at start. After running it will be advanced to the fire line for proper running.
Just showing cause and effect!
Edited by Dick L - 06 Jan 2017 at 10:59am
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desertjoe
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 11:08am |
"" Guessing it likely needs rings and a valve job anyway."" Hey Alan,,,,,while those numbers seem a little low,,,I would not worry too much at this point,,,,cause if the engine has been settin,,the rings may be a little stuck and may free up after some runnin time,,,, ,,,if it was valves you'lda got some zeros,,,,,, One other trick I've used is to squirt a little 30 wt oil in each cylinder before you put spark plugs in for the re-try,,,that'll seal the rings and help with the low compression,,,,,,
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pumpkinman
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 12:16pm |
AJ= THE CENTER MARK IS AFTER THE FIRE MARK, SLOWLEY PULL THE CRANK ABOUT ONE INCH AT A TIME SPRAY THE FLY WHEEL WITH BRAKECLEEN / CARB CLEENER RUB THE CRUD OFF WITH YOUR FINGER AND A RAG THE CENTER MARK WILL COME UP. ALSO THE SET SCREW ON THE CRANK PULLY WILL BE AT ABOUT 11 O CLOCK. KENT
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 12:25pm |
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you should be rotating the motor with your finger over the #1 plug hole.. When you feel compression, the piston is starting to come up.. If you continue to rotate the motor 60 degrees you will be at the FIRE mark which is 30 degrees BEFORE TDC... If you rotate the motor a full 90 degress AFTER compression starts, you will be at the TDC mark. You can NOT INSTALL THE DISTRIBUTOR until you see TDC in the timing hole...... Dicks wire in the spark plug hole to FEEL the top of the piston can be a good test, but you MUST be on the compression stroke, measured with your thumb.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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AJ
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 12:46pm |
So I got smart. I have the round wire brush that just fits in that side hole. While pushing on that and cranking the engine at the same time so to clean all the crap off the flywheel I found that mark you all are talking about. Never saw this before. The set screw/ bolt for front pulley is at the 12:00 position.  
Edited by AJ - 06 Jan 2017 at 12:49pm
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AJ
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 12:52pm |
Position of the rotor with the engine having the Center mark showing in the peep hole. Guessing this is about 170 degrees off??? 
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AJ
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 12:56pm |
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So where is this mark on the distributor that I need to look for to se the distributor at #1?
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AJ
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 1:10pm |
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Took distributor out and made an educated guess where to place it. While putting the bolts back in for the distrubuter I noticed one of the bolts was sparking a little. I did have power to distrubuter at the time. Is that just the grounding?
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Dick L
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 2:27pm |
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Yes just grounding as what happens when the points close. That would be normal if the power was on. You do not need power on until your ready to test or start. Power on when not needed will burn points when the points are in a certain position.
Edited by Dick L - 06 Jan 2017 at 2:28pm
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DougS
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 2:50pm |
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Be sure you are at Center AND at TDC of the compression stroke - not the exhaust stroke. All valves closed on number 1 cylinder still applies.
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TramwayGuy
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 3:58pm |
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You mentioned that you had 'spark' at the POINTS, but do you actually have some spark where it counts --- at the plugs?
You could have a bad condenser and you will not get a good spark at the plugs. Or the coil could be deteriorating. So once again; what does the spark look like at the plugs?
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Bob D. (La)
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 4:51pm |
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Unless I am blind, which is a real possibility, I see you have the wires in 1234 order, instead of 1243. You can use any position of the cap as #1. Do the check again finding your on #1 cylinder, {front cylinder of engine} When you feel it building compression, stop. Put a wire in #1 plug hole and crank very slowly till piston is at highest position. Then, check where rotor is pointing and use that pole for #1 plug wire. Then, in ccw direction looking down on cap, place the remaining plug wires in 2, 4, 3 order. It will start and run, as long as there is compression, gas, and spark.
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When you find yourself in a hole,PUT DOWN THE SHOVEL!!!
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AJ
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Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 5:03pm |
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Thats what I thought in the beginning Bob but I musta had some real bad luck up front.
The cylinders front front to back in line go 1234 or 1243?
I know the plug wires are suppost to be 1243
Edited by AJ - 06 Jan 2017 at 5:10pm
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