Trying to Start a B (GOT IT STARTED!!!)
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=133366
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Topic: Trying to Start a B (GOT IT STARTED!!!)
Posted By: AJ
Subject: Trying to Start a B (GOT IT STARTED!!!)
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2017 at 9:57pm
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Have a B engine I have been trying to get to start for the last three days. Just thought I'd throw it out on the table incase I'm missing something. Borrowed a carb from a running tractor. Engine is getting spark. And is timed correctly I'm pretty sure. I know this because when I went to double check the timing i hit the starter to bring it to #1 cylinder and the plug wire was touching the top of my hand and hit me at the same time when the distributor hit for spark for #1. Yes it getting fuel too. Engine will hit once in a while on one cylinder but that it. Thoughts? Questions? Ideas? ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Replies:
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2017 at 10:03pm
| Are you sure your timing isn't 180 degrees off? |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2017 at 10:14pm
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Pretty sure. I've tried the 180 rotation trick already. Not saying I'm correct but it has me scratching my head. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: JD Dan
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 4:42am
| Didn't the b have 2 different possible firing orders? Also, have you noted if the spark is consistent or erratic? In the last year I've had at least a half dozen customers that tried to save a few bucks on ignition parts only to wind up calling me to fix it. In every one of these cases the condenser was faulty causing erratic spark which appeared to be a good hot spark properly timed |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 7:03am
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Well Dan, I'm open to any possibility at this point. How do I check that properly?
------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Larry in NC
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 7:24am
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You have spark, but if you have not done so, pull the plugs and make sure you have hot spark all the way through the plugs. If the plugs are wet they are not firing. Fouled plugs can cause the problem you are having. Firing order is 1-2-4-3. clockwise. If the tractor has been sitting a long time, look at the ends of the spark plug wires in the distributor cap to see if they are corroded. If the tractor has a distributor, it could be set wrong even though timed correctly. You can try moving it clockwise to increase the timing. |
Posted By: Bull
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 8:55am
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Is your TDC timing mark showing when # 1 piston is up? While working on my C I mistakenly had it on the fire mark instead of TDC mark so it was off 30 degrees. ------------- WD45 Diesel, RC,CA,IB, B, G, 616, Early B-10, D-10, Terra Tiger, 95G spreader, SC blade |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 10:27am
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I have not check that yet Sam and I will. BUT I just realized something that I should probably look at again. I replaced the governor in it because the old one was shot and not sure if I paid attention to the timeing mark on it. That could possibly be an issue worth pursuing. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 11:57am
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This is the way the wires should be for the proper firing order. Make sure you are on the compression stroke for number one plug at top dead center when the magneto snaps. Make sure that TDC or CENTER line is in the inspection hole. If not seen adjust until it is. With all the plugs removed turn the engine over to where it snaps and you see spark for number by holding the wire close to the block. When you see this then check the number two plug wire the same way. You then check the number four wire by seeing the spark. then last check number three wire. When turning by hand watching spark on one wire and stopping then going to the next wire for the check you leave nothing to chance. You are able to see spark and know it is in time as long as you have number one correct.  |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 12:03pm
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follow Dicks procedure. I would bet the timing is off. pull the wires off and put a plug in #1 wire and ground it... turn the crank slowly with somebodys thumb over the plug hole to feel that your coming up on compression stroke... continue to turn until it fires on #1 and you see the spark. Look in the timing hole and should be TDC showing.. helps to have a second person looking in the hole to assist.... Im guessing your off on this. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 12:13pm
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Update. Went home on my lunch break because this is driving me nuts and want to get this figured out. The governor was out of time. Took governor out and turned the crank till the mark was visible. Put governor back in lining it up with the mark. Fixed that. Re-timed the engine to number one cylinder (blow the finger out trick) Think it was 180 out at that point. Adjusted the wires to firing order 1243. Engine still not doing anything ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 12:25pm
Not sure if this matters but I'm running a distributor Dick ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Dick L wrote:Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 12:29pm
| http://dueyschutter.freeservers.com/photo6.html" rel="nofollow - Here's a page that may help. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 12:32pm
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I just noticed that you have a distributor. http://dueyschutter.freeservers.com/photo4.html" rel="nofollow - Try this page. |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 12:52pm
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I thought I had done that. I must still have something off.
------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 2:30pm
| Do you have a distributor or magneto??? |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 2:39pm
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Distributer ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 3:12pm
Here ya go. You find the TDC on the compression stroke again for number one. Remove the distributor cap. Loosen the base of the distributor. Make sure the rotor is pointing to number one terminal. You may or may not need to lift the distributor up and turn it so when setting all the way down it is pointing to number one terminal. With the points set at .020 when setting on the high point of its shaft cam. rotate the distributor base back and fourth with the switch on watching the points spark. Stop and lock the distributor down when the points are just about to spark. (just before) This will have it in time as close you will get it without a timing light. With a distributor you do not need to set the governor gear at the timing gear mark. That is for the magneto to make the magneto drive slot horizontal for proper magneto timing. The gear can be anywhere as long as the rotor is pointing to the number one terminal as a starting point. As stated above you lift the distributor out and turn it to where it needs to be. When I would put the distributor in my stock car after having the engine out I timed it in the dark with a flashlight more times than not. Which happened way to often trying to run two nights a week. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 3:21pm
WF owner - That's a great timing explanation. I have a thread on rebuilding my WD45. When I get to the timing portion, I'd like to make a link to your page or copy and paste to my rebuild thread. Good straightforward explanation. |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 4:14pm
Top Dead Center Distrubuter pulled out and turned to #1  Cap replaced on distrubuter, wires double checked  ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 4:16pm
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Still not hitting ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 4:25pm
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How old are those plugs and wires? The plugs look like they still have the original orange paint on them. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 4:33pm
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"distributor pulled out and turned to #1"............ and rotated and locked in position so that the point is just starting to open ?? ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 4:57pm
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Don't believe 'Gasoline' has been mentioned in any of the Posts. Have you got gas flowing in to the carb. ? Put some gas in a windex bottle. Spray a bit into intake side of carb, then try starting. You need fresh gas. Gary |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:16pm
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Plugs and wired are getting great spark at the plugs. Ive checked three times. Carb is off a running tractor. Just ran that tractor 10 min ago. Plugs have been getting hints of gas on them. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:18pm
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Its gotta be a timing issue. I might have it all jacked up now.... I've never had this big of an issue before. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:19pm
| Did you remove the rotor and rotate the distributor with the switch on watching it spark? |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:21pm
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Yes, getting lots of spark at the points ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:24pm
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All an engine needs to run is compression with a fuel mixture in the firing chamber with properly timed spark. If you are at top dead center with both valves closed on number one cylinder and have the spark at that time you are in time.
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:34pm
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The only problem I could see in your case would be would be lack of fuel or both intake and exhaust valves not being closed. If both valves are not closed you are not on the compression stroke. Because of my crippled left hand I can not check with my thumb and the valve position is how I check for compression stroke. If you had the crankshaft out the other thing I could see would be the camshaft and crankshaft were not in time. Checking for the valves being closed would mean that could not be the problem. |
Posted By: Richardmo
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 8:11pm
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Look for a stuck valve or bent push rod. That will cause a motor to have back pressure and not pull in the gas. |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 9:09pm
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The engine seems to have too good of compression to not be a decent runner. Ive owned engines with much less compression that ran ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: BenGiBoy
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 7:32am
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This is kinda a silly question... but did you turn the switch to RUN?? (assuming that you did, because there is a spark...) ------------- '39 Model B Tractors are cheaper than girls, remember that! |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 7:56am
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Yes. Wired straight to the battery right now. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: NICKMI
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 7:58am
| Try some ether just to make sure it's not a fuel related issue try thru carb and if that don't work try spraying a little in each cyl |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 8:48am
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Tried either several times. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Bull
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 9:01am
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I would pull valve cover and spark plugs, make sure each piston tops out as it should and valves close accordingly. ------------- WD45 Diesel, RC,CA,IB, B, G, 616, Early B-10, D-10, Terra Tiger, 95G spreader, SC blade |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 9:20am
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Done that too Bull ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: alan-nj
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 11:05am
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next stupid question: are you saying it has good compression because you've done a compression test, or because it feels hard to crank? ------------- If ignorance is bliss, than happy days are here again. |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 11:31am
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Have not done a test with a gauge. Didnt feel it was necessary. Just trying to figure out if the the engine runs well or not. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 12:02pm
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if it will not fire on ether, then it is not timed right........ still..If you are sure the camshaft / crank gear timing has not been changed since it ran last, then the distributor is still not set correct........
with the plugs out , bar the motor over slowly until #1 (front) comes up on compression stroke. at the top (TDC) on the crank, you should see the point just break open inside the distributor... then the cap / rotor install should point at #1 plug wire. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 12:20pm
To agree with you Steve I have determined that it has to be something with the distributor. Just trying to figure out what it can be. I'm pretty sure is timing. Yesterday i did take the distributor out of the housing completely and turned it 180 due to a suggestion someone had made. Thinking its still not correct. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 1:48pm
Providing the valves were closed for most of the compression stroke. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 3:04pm
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Turning the distributor shaft 180 degrees is the same as turning the crankshaft 360 degrees. Try 90 degrees at the distributor. Gerald J. |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 3:42pm
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Hey AJ,,,Now,,I know you is a pretty good shade tree like me and sounds like you tried bout all these great suggestions,,,,,and since you HAVE tried ether,,,,,its gotta be timing,,, Only'ist thing I haven't read to make sure on the timing,,, is to pull valve cover and look at the valves to make sure they are both closed on #1 when piston is at TDC, dist pointing at #1 spark plug position, and timing mark in window,,,,and it should start ,,,,  Does the engine backfire when crankin it?? |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 5:09pm
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Pardon the ignorance gentlemen but I just want to make sure of the process that I need to do. First step: get to TDC by mark on flywheel? Doesn't that mark show twice per cylinder revolution? If so, does it matter which time it shows that it should be set to? Second step: look to see if the valves on #1 cylinder are both closed with the piston at the top of its stroke. Third step: see if rotor is pointing at #1 spark plug or #1 cylinder? That's probably a dumb question but I am past frustrated with this thing. So draw me a picture if I dont have it right. Like I said before, I've never had this much trouble trying to start a B or C.  Joe, the engine don't do much beside rotate when cranked. It was coughing back through the carb once in a while but it don't do that anymore. I did get it to hit on and run fir about 4 seconds at one time but it dont do that either now and it didn't sound organized when it did. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 5:22pm
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The timing mark comes up twice. Once on the compression and then on the exhaust stroke. As stated many times above it fires on the compression stroke. If you watch the engine as it is hand cranked with the valve cover removed the rocker arms will both be up when you get to TDC on the compression stroke. that is when you set the points to just be ready to open, which causes a spark when they open, and the rotor will need to point toward the number one plug wire. At this point it is in time.
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Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 5:26pm
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Got it. Thanks. I plan to go throught the entire process after dinner ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Ted in NE-OH
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 6:13pm
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Make sure you have compression in all cylinders, , valves could be stuck open. ------------- CA, WD, C, 3 Bs, 2 Gs, WC, I-400, 914 |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 6:19pm
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Thas what I'm thinkin now,,Ted in NE-OH,,,,,sounds like some valves too tight or hanging open,,,, since you've already had the valve cover off, AJ,,roll the engine and make sure all the valves do close and rocker arms slightly loose,,,or better yet run a quickie compression check,,that'll tell you lots,,,,, |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 7:28pm
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The timing mark does NOT tell you when it is on the COMPRESSION stroke. It HAS to be on the compression stroke with #1 at TDC to time it. With the valve cover on, you HAVE to put your thumb in #1 plug hole to find the compression stroke. This is WAY easier than people make it out to be IF you start by pulling the plug(s) and finding compression stroke first. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 7:31pm
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Charles I have been timing it with the finger in #1 cylinder. With #1 cylinder on the top of the compression stroke it does not show the TDC mark on the flywheel. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 7:36pm
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Where is the set screw for the front crankshaft pulley when you think it is at TDC without being able to see the mark? I have timed several engines after working on a distributor or Mag and NEVER looked for the flywheel mark. It isn't necessary IF you are at TDC of Compression on #1. I would also say, you are NOT at TDC if the mark isn't visible. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: bryan/silex
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 7:45pm
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looks and sounds like it time to sell it!!! lol ------------- WD's and 45's B's and c's and a few red ones , ALLIS EXPRESS also |
Posted By: allischalmerguy
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 7:56pm
------------- It is great being a disciple of Jesus! 1950 WD, 1957 D17...retired in Iowa, |
Posted By: Adam Stratton
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 7:57pm
| One crazy idea, are you sure there isn't a blockage between the carb and intake? I've had mud dauber nests, acorns and all sorts of things show up in dead tractors. Can't even get either past a good plug and then it won't fire. Wouldn't hurt to check. Also make sure throttle butterfly moves like it should while you are there. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 8:21pm
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Have you tried turning it over with the distributor cap off? Is the distributor turning smoothly when it's turning over? Is it possible that the advance in the distributor is stuck in the advance position and advancing the spark too much? |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 8:32pm
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Going through the process now. Will be posting pics and what I've done. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 10:18pm
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AJ, I don't mean to be harsh, but your not listing or understanding the procedure yet. I hope you have it now....... You REALLY need a second person to look in the flywheel hole and see the TDC since you don't have a good idea of where it is.. On the "B"s I have worked on , the crank arm (tool) is normally horizontal I believe when you are at TDC.... Crank slowly with someones finger over the #1 plug hole.. when you feel it coming up on compression, then have the guy look into the flywheel hole... continue to crank slowly about 45- 90 degrees until the piston comes all the way up and you see TDC in the flywheel inspection hole.......... I don't believe you have ever got to this point yet.. YOU CAN NOT install the distributor until you get the TDC in the hole visible and #1 piston is on compression .
With the motor set a TDC, slide the distributor into the hole with the rotor pointing "about" at #1 wire...... then rotate it back and forth until you see the point start to open, or start to close.. the break point is where you lock down the mounting bolt... should start now. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 10:20pm
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.......... if you cant get the point to start open- start close, then you are off a tooth or two on the distributor install... pull it up a couple inches, turn slightly and reinstall... then see if you can get the point to open. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 10:21pm
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Pulled #1 cylinder to compression stroke. Checked points Positioned wires Shot with ether Nothing. Not even a cough ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 10:23pm
    ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2017 at 10:45pm
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Hey AJ,,,looks like you got two of the three things necessary for any engine to start,,,but,,,,get your compression testor and run a quick compression test,,,just to eliminate that pesky little possibility,,,,, looks like you got the points set, wires as should be,,,,, THEN,,,,we gonna get serious bout this thing,,,,!!!! |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 4:42am
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With the switch on and every thing together ready to run crank it over slowly by hand holding number one plug wire close to the plug or block. Stop cranking the instant you see the spark.^ Check the inspection hole and you should have the TDC in the center.^ If you do see the TDC line then check how much gap you have between the intake and exhaust valve stem and the rocker arm pad. You should have between .010 and .012. ^ ^ what does the spark look like?
^ What is the actual gap?
^ If not on center which side of center? How far do you need to move the crank before you see the line? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do all of the above only after getting the proper timing line in the center of the inspection hole.
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 4:53am
I seem to see fire on the line in the inspection hole rather than TDC or CENTER. You have another line 30º farther. It will never start dead timing to the FIRE line. The FIRE line is what you see with a timing light when running at high idle/wide open. Re time as you have been doing only do it to the TDC or CENTER line and it will run.
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 6:23am
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An added thought---- If you tried to set the valve lash (gap between valve stem and rocker arm) you will need to re set the lash/gap to the actual TDC or CENTER line. (the flywheel can be marked with one or the other but will not be marked with both) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It will run fine the way the wires are on the distributor but if you want it as they would have come from the factory you would not have the rotor pointing to the original number 2 cylinder terminal. No reason to change it as far as running. The distributors are marked for number one with a lobe, notch or something on the outside with the cap off normally for number one. (intended as a helpful detail only) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here is another hand made tool for your tool box to find TDC. Take a piece of wire about six inches long. Bend a sharp 90º bend 3/4" on one end. Place another 90º bend at the other end about 2" in from the end so it will lay flat on a table. (a square U longer on one end) Placing the 3/4" bend in the spark plug hole holding the wire loosely in the center with the long bend down. Turn the engine until you see the wire stop moving up and start down. The long bend acts as a weight and keeps the short end from turning side ways. Not to confuse you but cylinder one and four are at TDC at the same time. You can check for TDC with the wire on plug hole 4 if the distributor is in the way. It will be up on the exhaust stroke at the same time as the 1 cylinder is on the compression stroke. |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:11am
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Thanks Dick, the line on the flywheel does say FIRE. I dont recall seeing a second line 30 degrees out but I wasnt looking for it either. So if I set the engine at the top of the compression stroke that second line should be visible or very close by on that flywheel? I did time it to that stroke last night and set the distributor to just before spark like was said previously. Never got a crackle out of her. I'm just saying there must be something small I'm missing. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:13am
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Forgot, on the 30 more degrees you mentioned, does that mean the distributor should be timed 30 degree clockwise or counter clockwise? How do I know what 30 degrees is on the distributor? Guess? ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:17am
(Re time as you have been doing only do it to the TDC or CENTER line and it will run.) |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:24am
Just start over when you get the actual TDC line in the inspection hole and do the same as before. You will have to lift the distributor out and reset the rotor to point to your number one cylinder terminal. Before locking the distributor down twist it back and fourth watching it spark with power on so you know when they are closed and just ready to open. When you get done you will be able to do it in the dark without a flashlight. Are you old enough to remember math flash cards in school?
 |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:52am
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The official details on that engine are in the Allis service manual I have posted at: http://www.geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf Page B-C 32 for ignition timing details. Cam shaft timing and valve setting other places. Wants the engine warm for setting the valves at .010". Gerald J. |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 9:38am
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Gosh,,,I think ole Dick has hit the issue square on,,,,,with the second mARK,,,, I don't know if can be done on these old tractors,,,but I have done the followin on 6 and 8 cylinder cars and really think will work on these 4 cylinders as well,,,, When you you get the correct mark on the flywheel in the window,,,,verify the piston is at TDC, both valves on #1 are loose,,, check where the distributor rotor is pointing to,,,and just move the #1 wire to THAT position on the distributor cap,,makin sure you can rotate distributor for advance,,,then rewire 1-2-4-3 from there and she will fire up,,,, The engine does not know or care where #1 is just so the wires are in order and in time. BTDT,,,,, Good Luck,,,,I know you must of not got too much sleep these nights,,,,   Hey Dick L,,I really like your idea on the bent wire trick,,cause it frees up YOUR hands for other things while you're doin this,,,, |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:20am
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Well I did a compression check. Now first off the gauge tester I was using I am not confident it was working correctly but if it was here is what i found. Cylinders 1,2,3 are at about 42. Cylinder 4 is at 38. Not sure if that plays a big roll or not. Seems the engine has a little more compression than that but I dont know. Guessing it likely needs rings and a valve job anyway. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:22am
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On the TDC line (mine says FIRE) does not line up with the compression stroke. Does that sound right or am I an idiot? ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: JD Dan
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:35am
| Fire won't line up with tdc. Tdc or dc will line up with tdc |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:40am
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So is that TDC mark before or after the FIRE mark? ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:48am
No it does Not. Your not an idiot! Your confused! I have found flywheels without any visible lines but think someone had sanded the lines off with rust. If you can not find the TDC line use the wire to get to top dead center and forget the line. I am sure you will find the proper line though when you get TDC with the wire.
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:55am
The fire line is 30º advanced. So that would show first. The fire line is used to set the magneto in the instructions because it is just where the clock spring starts to wind so it will/can spin the magneto rotor when it passes TDC to make spark at start. After running it will be advanced to the fire line for proper running. Just showing cause and effect!
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Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 11:08am
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"" Guessing it likely needs rings and a valve job anyway."" Hey Alan,,,,,while those numbers seem a little low,,,I would not worry too much at this point,,,,cause if the engine has been settin,,the rings may be a little stuck and may free up after some runnin time,,,, ,,,if it was valves you'lda got some zeros,,,,,,One other trick I've used is to squirt a little 30 wt oil in each cylinder before you put spark plugs in for the re-try,,,that'll seal the rings and help with the low compression,,,,,, |
Posted By: pumpkinman
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 12:16pm
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AJ= THE CENTER MARK IS AFTER THE FIRE MARK, SLOWLEY PULL THE CRANK ABOUT ONE INCH AT A TIME SPRAY THE FLY WHEEL WITH BRAKECLEEN / CARB CLEENER RUB THE CRUD OFF WITH YOUR FINGER AND A RAG THE CENTER MARK WILL COME UP. ALSO THE SET SCREW ON THE CRANK PULLY WILL BE AT ABOUT 11 O CLOCK. KENT
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 12:25pm
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you should be rotating the motor with your finger over the #1 plug hole.. When you feel compression, the piston is starting to come up.. If you continue to rotate the motor 60 degrees you will be at the FIRE mark which is 30 degrees BEFORE TDC... If you rotate the motor a full 90 degress AFTER compression starts, you will be at the TDC mark. You can NOT INSTALL THE DISTRIBUTOR until you see TDC in the timing hole...... Dicks wire in the spark plug hole to FEEL the top of the piston can be a good test, but you MUST be on the compression stroke, measured with your thumb. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 12:46pm
So I got smart. I have the round wire brush that just fits in that side hole. While pushing on that and cranking the engine at the same time so to clean all the crap off the flywheel I found that mark you all are talking about. Never saw this before. The set screw/ bolt for front pulley is at the 12:00 position.   ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 12:52pm
Position of the rotor with the engine having the Center mark showing in the peep hole. Guessing this is about 170 degrees off???  ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 12:56pm
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So where is this mark on the distributor that I need to look for to se the distributor at #1? ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 1:10pm
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Took distributor out and made an educated guess where to place it. While putting the bolts back in for the distrubuter I noticed one of the bolts was sparking a little. I did have power to distrubuter at the time. Is that just the grounding? ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 2:27pm
| Yes just grounding as what happens when the points close. That would be normal if the power was on. You do not need power on until your ready to test or start. Power on when not needed will burn points when the points are in a certain position. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 2:50pm
| Be sure you are at Center AND at TDC of the compression stroke - not the exhaust stroke. All valves closed on number 1 cylinder still applies. |
Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 3:58pm
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You mentioned that you had 'spark' at the POINTS, but do you actually have some spark where it counts --- at the plugs? You could have a bad condenser and you will not get a good spark at the plugs. Or the coil could be deteriorating. So once again; what does the spark look like at the plugs? |
Posted By: Bob D. (La)
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 4:51pm
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Unless I am blind, which is a real possibility, I see you have the wires in 1234 order, instead of 1243. You can use any position of the cap as #1. Do the check again finding your on #1 cylinder, {front cylinder of engine} When you feel it building compression, stop. Put a wire in #1 plug hole and crank very slowly till piston is at highest position. Then, check where rotor is pointing and use that pole for #1 plug wire. Then, in ccw direction looking down on cap, place the remaining plug wires in 2, 4, 3 order. It will start and run, as long as there is compression, gas, and spark. ------------- When you find yourself in a hole,PUT DOWN THE SHOVEL!!! |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 5:03pm
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Thats what I thought in the beginning Bob but I musta had some real bad luck up front. The cylinders front front to back in line go 1234 or 1243? I know the plug wires are suppost to be 1243 ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 5:32pm
The engine is 1-2-3-4 from the radiator back. The wires go 1-2-4-3 clock ways. You do have them wrong in your pictures. I missed that in looking at your pictures. Go back and follow the wires in my picture of the magneto to see how they go from the cap to the plugs.
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Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 7:47pm
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The manual that I linked says compression pressure is 94 to 115 pounds for various variations of the B/C gas or low octane fuel engine. It doesn't give any details about making the test. I'm sure that it is crucial to make sure the choke and throttle are full open. Then take the pressure as it builds, usually in my experience it stops rising after 5 or 6 compression strokes. The highest pressure reached is considered the proper reading.The starter or cranker work faster if all the plugs are out and the clutch pedal is pushed even with the transmission is in neutral. Checking for ignition power by looking at a plug removed but grounded is not a good test of ignition. At atmospheric pressure it takes a lot less voltage to spark than it does at 100 psi or so for a normal compression. A system that sparks a plug at atmospheric pressure may not fire at the higher pressure. A more conventional test is to expose the end of the plug wire and hold it between 3/8" and 1/2" from the block or head. A good ignition system will spark that gap at atmospheric pressure. The spark has to be fat and blue. A skinny or yellow spark shows problems in the ignition system. A bad coil probably won't get voltage to jump any gap. A bad condenser will make the thin and yellow sparks and the engine won't run well with a yellow spark. When preparing to set the timing it is important to set the point gap first because changing the point gap changes the timing. Gerald J. |
Posted By: AJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 8:51pm
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I want to thank all you guys for the help, suggestions, ideas, and putting up with me. The problem was figured out. I had it timed correctly the very first time so timing wasn't the main problem. Turns out it was the plugs. Had someone call me to tell me to try a hotter spark plug. Just happened to have some laying on the shelf. Put them in, gave the carb a shot of ether, hit the starter and she fired off the second revolution. Put it on gas and hit the starter. Fired up and ran. I'm going to play with it more to get it timed exactly right and some other adjustments to see if the engine is worth a darn. Thank you guys, I appreciate the help. ------------- Can't fix stupid |
Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 9:57pm
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Hey Thas great,,,,but,,,,when are Ya gonna break out the Black Label,,,,,???? |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2017 at 10:42pm
| Aj, while you have it open I believe it would be a good idea to check the valve adjustment. It seems strange to me that ALL cylinders would be so low but relative even. You could be the victim of wrong adjustment (to tight) and the overlap is bleeding off the comp. Easy enough to check. Glad you got her going! |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2017 at 5:28am
| I did mention upthread that the plugs looked old. The wires probably could be replaced too. When you feel rich I'd go with new points, rotor, cap, wires and plugs. That pretty much takes care of the ignition system. |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2017 at 5:58am
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Interesting to read the thread. How confusing it quickly gets. I thought it amazing when TDC mark was found, I zoom picture in and squinting, I think that spells "FIRE". I read the thread late, or I would have replied on that. There was confusion about plug wire order. My first thought was which way does that rotor turn? By looking at b/c/ca tractor pictures on the net the answer is clockwise. Magneto or distributor, they both rotate clockwise. You can now see the Fire and Center marks, get some paint and fill in the engraving for the line and letters, for yourself and for future generations. I didn't see anyone ask you to test for side play in the distributor shaft and bushing. If this is worn the engine will run poorly, due to "random" spark. If it were mine I would verify valve lash, check point gap on all 4 lobes. Start it up run it at top speed, use a timing light with that FIRE mark, set the timing. Start reducing rpm with throttle at 900 rpm and below, the fire mark should start moving down out of the inspection hole as the distributor advance alters timing closer to TDC. And if you don't have a nice blue spark, file points ,replace points, replace capacitor. You replaced plugs and now it works, so I have my doubts about the quality of the spark. Another sideshow is do you have the right coil? Things get botched up with 6 to 12v conversions, coils and resistors... Glad it is running. |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2017 at 10:33am
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AJ, You did very good with a lot of good instructions! I have had similar issues with tractors. and Its just a lot of checking! for spark, compression and gas. If they have those things they should run, Maybe not very well but they should fire and try to run. So taking number 1 plug out and grounding to the block and looking for spark might have given you a lead on the problem sooner. That's what hind site is good for! Glad you got the B running. I bet the compression is better now too? Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 9:13am
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Craziest thing- I've been resurrecting a B that had a stuck piston (among other things) and finally got it to the point I was ready to try and start it. I timed the magneto...timed it again...tweaked it a little, etc. Then I changed 3 of the spark plugs back to the Champion J8s that were in it when I got the tractor, the 4th was rusted badly from the cylinder that was stuck, and after the plug change, she started up and ran like a champ for the first time in years. So...why would it start on 3 J8s (and one AL 295), but only sputter a few times with 4 AL 295s? Voodoo? Luck? ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 12:14pm
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The question isn't why it would start on some and not others, it's what would prevent it from starting. Spark plugs are doing a seemingly simple job, but it's not that simple of a situation. The concept is to provide a spot for a spark to form, and create enough heat to ignite fuel. In order to have a spark, you have to have an open circuit... meaning, the insulation between center electrode and outer exists. If the insulator has carbon built up on it, electricity will leak across the carbon, preventing a spark from forming. There is a reason why spark plugs come in different 'heat' ranges. It's obvious to most why you'd not want to 'hot' a plug... 'autoignition temperature' is the temperature AND PRESSURE at which point a volatile mixture will just ignite. IF a plug's electrode was so hot that it was glowing red, you wouldn't need a spark to cause the fuel/air mix to touch off... as soon as the compression pressure is high enough for the fuel... and that hot spot... to light up, you'd have fire... This is exactly how 'hot bulb' diesel engines work... but in a gasoline engine, we call it 'pre-ignition'. (it's bad in gasoline and gaseous-fuel engines because the flame speed and expansion/pressure rate is really high compared to 'heavy oil' engines) So what about a 'cold' plug? Well, fuel burns... it's called a 'chemical reaction'... and in any chemical reaction, you start with one thing, get some energy out or in (exothermic or endothermic), and when that's done, there's always stuff left over. If it was a pure fuel, and the mixture was ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, you'd have a very predictable basket of leftovers. In the case of a hydrocarbon fuel, the results of a 'perfect' burn are MOSTLY carbon dioxide and water... but usually some carbon monoxide, and some other nasties, and leftovers of whatever dust, dirt, crud, corrosion, etc., found it's way in through the intake, fuel system, whatever. Aluminum oxide from the inside of the carb bowl, bits of bug guts, some oil through the rings and valve guides, a little iron dust... 'yknow... crud. And to make for clarity... NO engine I've ever seen, manages a 'perfect' burn. If you feed it ordinary pump gas, you ain't gonna get one... because it's a mixture of hydrocarbons... and frequently a carbohydrate (ethanol), and of course, crap and water. So what happens, is the leftovers of the burn accumulate in places where they 'like' to stick. Typical barnyard carbon likes to stick to hot surfaces... it kinda likes to 'coat' them, and the spark plug electrode is one of those places. Carbon ain't much of an insulator... matter of fact, it's really handy for making resistors (electronic parts). It actually conducts electricity, but not very well... but enough so that it'll 'bleed off' your spark energy before the VOLTAGE across the plug electrodes reaches high enough to 'excite' the atoms between the gap... and the result, is no sparky arkey. Remember that there's 'water' as a leftover? Well, wet carbon turns into a dead-short really fast. Lots'a guys will check for spark by lifting a wire off the terminal of a plug, and see a nice blue flash... but that doesn't mean you're getting a flash across the electrode inside. You can also pull the plug and watch it spark on the outside, but once it's threaded into that dark hole, and there's watery oily used-to-be-gasoline in there, it'll be just another dead-short. So putting three new plugs in, made those three fire. What about the fourth? Well, once the engine's turning fast and warmed up, the mere presence of airflow through, and a rise in temp, will eventually clean up that one plug enough so it'll start to pop, then run. Cleaning up the old plugs may very well result in them working fine, now that the engine's been fired up, warmed up, and happy. Matter of fact, now that it's been warmed up and cooled down a few times, a socket on that last plug, and light tap from a hammer on the side of the socket may break those threads loose and back it out nicely. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |