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Gerald J. 
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 Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 6:20pm |
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By 1968 some 90,000 4020 had been shipped with the dry air cleaner the '68 model year ended with sn 201,999 and included 184,000. One reference I have says SN 91,000 began the 1965 model year.
I don't nap on the operator's deck and there are no gear shifts in the middle of the 4020 operator's deck so 6' feet of operator's deck serves no function for me.
I've not experience PS failures, nor heard of them ever having a problem. They were a tough transmission. The SR is easier to break according to all accounts I know of.
Gerald J.
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TerrySWIA
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 6:24pm |
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Could you John Deere lovers please explain, why when you hold in on the clutch for a couple of minutes on these new generation tractors, the pump kicks out and you lose steering and brakes. You can hold your clutch in on an Allis till the cows come home, and as long as the tractor is running you have steering and brakes. I was nearly killed one time pulling a trailer up a hill, when a 4620 spun out. I didn't want to put the tractor in park, because we all know how the JD transmission shifter binds up. While I was holding the clutch waiting for another tractor to pull me up the hill, I started rolling backwards, with no brakes or steering. I jack -knifed the trailer, to keep from rolling. The next morning I took the 4620 to my neighbor, who is one of the biggest Deere collectors in the country. I told him what happened, and asked how to fix it. He just looked at the ground, and shook his, and said " It wasn't one of their better ideas."
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Kcgrain
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 6:29pm |
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You actually have no idea of how many 4020 were built, one reason is John Deere kept the official numbers confidential and 2 John deere does not and will not run a consecutive serial number, unlike Allis Chalmers whose numbers were no secret. So your argument of they must have been good becasue they made so many is pure speculation
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Kcgrain
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 6:30pm |
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and the tranny should have been tough it was designed by ford and copied like most of JD accomplishemnts, from some body else
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Lonn
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 7:33pm |
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Your numbers are all messed up Gerald. Just how many 4020's do think were built anyhow? I know for a fact that all 4020's built in 1965 had the oil bath air cleaner. Just take the time to look at your next tractor show. Check the year and then look under the hood. Now I wouldn't want this discussion to get ugly. As of yet it's just been fun throwing facts around but just bring the facts or at least admit when it's speculation. I would love to own a 4020 some day and I don't think they were a bad tractor. Just that they certainly are not god like which is how many look at them. Oh, I would love to own a 4020 to bring to shows right next to my 190 XT. I just think that would be fun and also to give old fashioned type plow demo like there used to be back when these tractors were new. I would like to know for certain which one would end up on top, actually I already know as I have run both in the field and there is no other stock tractor of it's day that can out perform a 190 XT or 200.
Edited by Lonn - 02 Jan 2011 at 7:35pm
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BStone
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 7:36pm |
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I own more AC's than I do JD's.I love the orange....but lets be truthful .JD didn't get to where there at by selling a poor product.Yes they have the best marketing system for farm tractors the world.Some of you guys get turned down for JD financing?
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Lonn
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 7:46pm |
 BStone wrote:
I own more AC's than I do JD's.I love the orange....but lets be truthful .JD didn't get to where there at by selling a poor product.Yes they have the best marketing system for farm tractors the world.Some of you guys get turned down for JD financing? |
I agree and like I said........I don't think they were a bad tractor. Just that they certainly are not god like which is how many look at them
but I am absolutely sure my stock XT will out perform a stock 4020 too..
They sold a good product but did it with great marketing to the point that many think the 60 outsold the 45. The marketing not only promotes today's tractors but has also manage to fantastically hype up the legacy of past models. Does anyone here really believe that an A was better than a WD or a 40 was better than a CA or that an H was anything good at all? Some do I guess but I would guess most don't and that even many Deere nuts would agrre to a point.
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Eldon (WA)
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 7:53pm |
Here ya go....a side by side comparison. Which one looks meaner??
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BStone
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:00pm |
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Lonn I haven't owned a 4020, but have a 3020.I have owned a 190 and it was a good tractor.I never thought JD was in the tractor market until they came out with the 20 series tractors.I had a JD 60 and didn't care for it at all.
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Lonn
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:06pm |
Eldon (WA) wrote:
Here ya go....a side by side comparison. Which one looks meaner??
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Looks like that XT gave the old 4020 a goose egg on top of the old noggin. LOL
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Lonn
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:12pm |
BStone wrote:
Lonn I haven't owned a 4020, but have a 3020.I have owned a 190 and it was a good tractor.I never thought JD was in the tractor market until they came out with the 20 series tractors.I had a JD 60 and didn't care for it at all. |
I really don't think a 4020 is a bad tractor and in fact is a good tractor and I also think that the XT was too easy to turn up and being an early turboed tractor I think Allis was caught off guard when farmers quickly turned a 95 hp tractor into a 125 or even up to 150 hp tractor. The 4020 wasn't so easy to turn up and ruin. That right there was the biggest problem for the XT. The 7000 series eventually fixed that problem.
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BStone
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:16pm |
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No I maid a mistake when I was talking about when JD got competitive in the market.The 10 series....3010...4010...etc were the beginning of there start.BStone
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BStone
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:19pm |
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Eldon Wa You've got the goods...which tractor is the best...In your opinion???
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Kcgrain
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:21pm |
To be truthful JD got to where it is by a very well managed company selling a mediocre product with a financing plan that could make just about anybody credit worthy. It really has nothing to do with the actual product.John Deere was very smart by keeping dealers they could control, and forse to to market they way the company wanted.By convincing the people that John Deere was a status symbol rather than apiece of machinery to make you money by the work it performed, not by the so called resale value, or status of owning. The actual truth and the myth of JD equipment is miles apart and I speak from expierence in owning and operating both JD and AC. JD is a big marketer not manufacturer or equipment. many of JD equipment in ag and construction is made by other companies and JD badged, the public buys this BS thinking they bought some piece blessed by the JD gods.I always love the argument that JD has to be best because they are the biggest or because they are still in business. Well the fact of the matter is New Holland is the worlds largest manufactur of tractors and combines in the world and have been for years, so if thats the thinking than they must be the best. Not to keep beating a dead horse here on John Deere, you like what you like your convinced they are what they are for what ever reason, but in the grand scheme of things had there never been a John Deere what difference would it really make in the world? None they introduced or perfected nothing no one else had not already done including the JD legend of the polished plow, actualy Oliver was first. Now for the sake of argument where would the world be had there not been an Allis Chlamers. Allis Chlamers broke more records in manufacturing in design and engineering than any company ever according to the ASE to date. Not one mention of any earth shattering record or design from JD NONE. Anyone living on the west coast should wake up every morning and thank GOD that Allis Chalmers had been around . The majority of your electricity is produced on AC equipment that has been in service for years with no down time. The worlds largest and most poweful generators are at Grand Collie that no one can beat, even China who built a larger damm that produces more power couldnt match the capacity of the AC at grand Collie. They will in all actuality go down as the largest most powerful turbines ever made, designed and manufactured by Allis Chlamers, John Deere couldnt even fathom such a task.
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beeman
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:24pm |
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I never owned a big Allis Chalmers . A WD45 and an ED40 were the largest. But I did once own a 4020 w/ power shift and a 401b loader tractor. All gave good service. But none of the Allis had to be woke up by shaking on the steering wheels while cranking....
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1949 B 3930 Ford- Have owned other Orange ,green,red,yellow,dark green tractors and equipment.
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Eldon (WA)
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:26pm |
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Bstone, the JDLP really doesn't compare to the XT diesel....and I think the XT is putting out about 40 more ponies....I've never put fuel in the JD in 3 years...not that is that fuel efficient LMAO! It does have good brakes, tho! It does take a good pull from an Orange tractor to get her fired up....
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BStone
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:32pm |
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Fair enough Eldon.I'll take your word.And yes Beeman your right.I had a 300B loader and now the 2640 and 2630 all you have to jerk and twist the steering wheel to get them started.BStone
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Lonn
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:51pm |
BStone wrote:
Fair enough Eldon.I'll take your word.And yes Beeman your right.I had a 300B loader and now the 2640 and 2630 all you have to jerk and twist the steering wheel to get them started.BStone |
I'm not familiar with this steering wheel thing to start them. Start the engine or to get the hydraulics to work? The 4020 and other 20 series I driven haven't need that but then almost every time they were all ready running when I would get on them. My father-in-law's 2010 never needed this but I certainly wouldn't brag about the rest of the tractor. It was a dog and hard starter and trying to move the rear wheel tread was impossible without major heat. I would rank a 2010 pretty low when I compare it to a D15 or D17.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 9:25pm |
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New generation JD tractors use two hydraulic pumps, one low pressure one in the transmission oils the transmission and keeps the oil reservoir/cooler up front filled. In the pre side console tractor there is a check valve that wears out and when then clutch is pushed in on the SR that pump starts and the oil leaks out of the front reservoir and you loose everything hydraulic. I found a Service Information on that adding a new check valve in an elbow outside the transmission. I have a web page about it at http://www.geraldj.networkiowa.com/4020si.htm I made that fix for my gas '68 4020 and I can let it set for months, push in the clutch, start it and holding the clutch in yet, lift the loader so the check valve really works. Many have been fixed based on my web page.
Loss of steering hydraulics in later models (and the side console 4020) is not blamed on that check valve, apparently there isn't one but the index to service bulletins that I have blames it on hydraulic system leaks from the pressure circuit which might be any one of the valves, from steering to three point to brakes to remote to differential lock.
The steering wheel shake is to drop the stored hydraulic pressure so the front hydraulic pump turns easier and a not overly powered starter has a better chance of starting the engine. There are those (discussion today on New AG Talk Machinery) who advocate a larger starter for both gas and diesel 4020.
The production numbers I posted came from the Jan/Feb 2008 issue of the Two Cylinder Magazine and they based them on a count of the actual production logs from JDs Waterloo plant.
The case for the dry air cleaner and the wet are very similar. Not at all obviously different unless you drop the pan and check for oil at the bottom. The bottom looks the same from the outside and its mounted the same way.
The Deere PS transmission was NOT designed by Ford. It was designed by Ford's engineer then employed by Deere, no longer by Ford. He knew what was wrong with the SOS and compensated.
I'll check my parts book someday on the oil vs dry air cleaner, but I remember the break at 91,000 which began the 1965 model year.
Gerald J.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 9:27pm |
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The 1010 and 2010 came from the Dubuque works and were not Deere's best ideas. They are a world apart from good tractors and were hard to fix when new, harder now according to most that have had contact with them. The 1020 and 2020 are totally new designs again and good tractors though most outrageously priced when found used these days.
Gerald J.
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Jack(Ky)
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Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 9:37pm |
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Eldon, be careful with the MX8. I have a customer that has a MX10 and he hit something last year and broke the output shaft right off the bottom of the gearbox. Ordered a new gearbox from JD and then this year broke the other one. They do not sell the shaft separate and has had the gearbox ordered from JD this time since September and still hasn't shown up.JP
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Lonn
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Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 10:50am |
Gerald J. wrote:
New generation JD tractors use two hydraulic pumps, one low pressure one in the transmission oils the transmission and keeps the oil reservoir/cooler up front filled. In the pre side console tractor there is a check valve that wears out and when then clutch is pushed in on the SR that pump starts and the oil leaks out of the front reservoir and you loose everything hydraulic. I found a Service Information on that adding a new check valve in an elbow outside the transmission. I have a web page about it at http://www.geraldj.networkiowa.com/4020si.htm I made that fix for my gas '68 4020 and I can let it set for months, push in the clutch, start it and holding the clutch in yet, lift the loader so the check valve really works. Many have been fixed based on my web page.
Loss of steering hydraulics in later models (and the side console 4020) is not blamed on that check valve, apparently there isn't one but the index to service bulletins that I have blames it on hydraulic system leaks from the pressure circuit which might be any one of the valves, from steering to three point to brakes to remote to differential lock.
The steering wheel shake is to drop the stored hydraulic pressure so the front hydraulic pump turns easier and a not overly powered starter has a better chance of starting the engine. There are those (discussion today on New AG Talk Machinery) who advocate a larger starter for both gas and diesel 4020.
The production numbers I posted came from the Jan/Feb 2008 issue of the Two Cylinder Magazine and they based them on a count of the actual production logs from JDs Waterloo plant.
The case for the dry air cleaner and the wet are very similar. Not at all obviously different unless you drop the pan and check for oil at the bottom. The bottom looks the same from the outside and its mounted the same way.
The Deere PS transmission was NOT designed by Ford. It was designed by Ford's engineer then employed by Deere, no longer by Ford. He knew what was wrong with the SOS and compensated.
I'll check my parts book someday on the oil vs dry air cleaner, but I remember the break at 91,000 which began the 1965 model year.
Gerald J.
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I knew about loosing hydraulic power when clutching but wasn't familiar with the pressure build up that hampered starting. I do know that if you hold the clutch in on a 4020 SR that the hydraulics will quit after a few seconds. I don't think adding or replacing a check valve can fix that.
I found one book that says the dry air cleaner came in late 1966.
Deere was notorious for having hard to follow and sometimes impossible to prove production numbers. I did some very involved research years ago on the production numbers of the A. Deere and most all books written by or sanctioned by Deere always claim that there were 300,000 A's built and also that there were exactly 300,000 B's. Most of the early models Deere claimed exact rounded numbers like 60,000 H's. When I researched the A and all of it's variations I could only come up with around 240,000 (if I remember my numbers right) from 1934 to 1952. The Allis WC and WD produced from 1934 to 1953 totaled around 330,000 tractors including the WF.
Some will say that the WC and WD were two different tractors. They weren't that different and were in the same hp category and time frame as the A and never produced at the same time. As you probably know the WD replaced the WC. The early A was fairly different from the middle A and the late A was even more different. How many parts can be used from an early A to a late A? I know all the engine parts of the WD compared to a WC are virtually identical. The gears in the transmission are also the same and will swap but the WD gears are harder.
I guess my beef with Deere is all the mythology created around them. They made plenty of lemons too just like most all companies but that's hardly ever mentioned by anyone.
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Lonn
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Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 10:53am |
Jack(Ky) wrote:
Eldon, be careful with the MX8. I have a customer that has a MX10 and he hit something last year and broke the output shaft right off the bottom of the gearbox. Ordered a new gearbox from JD and then this year broke the other one. They do not sell the shaft separate and has had the gearbox ordered from JD this time since September and still hasn't shown up.JP |
Dad has an older Deere brush cutter bought in the 90's or later 80's that the shaft twisted off too. We could get a new shaft but it was very spendy compared to what the whole cutter cost. We set it next to a Woods once and the Woods was a much better built unit.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 11:03am |
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The check valve fixed my 4020. I was working on a basement excavation with a loader after that. I could sink the bucket in a wall, push in the clutch, break out that loader of hard dirt and spin the steering to the opposite stop (and the wheels followed) before I shifted to reverse and backed out. I've let it set 6 months, pushed in the clutch, started it and raised the loader off the floor without letting the transmission pump or the transmission run. Then turned the front wheels 30 degrees before letting out the clutch to spin the transmission and its pump. The check valve really did fix it.
There's about 5 gallons of oil in the front reservoir/cooler and double acting cylinders return to that reservoir, not to the transmision. So it can work for a long time so long as the differential between the two sides of the cylinders being used isn't more than those 5 gallons and there's no pressure leak in any of the control valves.
Worked for me and for many others that have worked from my web page.
The production numbers I quoted came from years of counting tractors from the actual Waterloo production logs. Which are incomplete in the early years not showing which transmission was on each tractor when there was an option of PS or SR.
The parts catalog will show when the change was from oil to dry air cleaner and there was also a retro kit to convert the earlier tractors that fit inside the oil bath air cleaner. Books based on remembering are as suspect as internet posts.
Gerald J.
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Lonn
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Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 2:33pm |
Gerald J. wrote:
The parts catalog will show when the change was from oil to dry air cleaner and there was also a retro kit to convert the earlier tractors that fit inside the oil bath air cleaner. Books based on remembering are as suspect as internet posts.
Gerald J.
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Interesting, never knew they made a retro kit to fit in the oil bath housing. I've often thought that if I had the time I would like to make one for my WD and D17 but I've never taken the time to do it.
The books weren't based on memory. My memory is based on memory. I do have all the paper work from the research I did on the A. I just looked at it a year or two ago so my memory might not get you the exact figure but I'm sure I'm real close. One day when I find all the figures I'll post them year by year.
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Ryan Renko
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Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 7:40pm |
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I'm amazed again. I'm checking out the classified and which would you rather have??? A 1979 john deere 7200 combine with 3800 hours for $15,000 or a 1979 Gleaner M2 with 2300 hours for $8,500??
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Kcgrain
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Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 8:12pm |
Actually on the 20 series tractors the hydraulic system works similar to what you explained with the exception that the tranny pump pumps oil to the 2 gallon tank on the front of the tractor directly over the main hydraulic pump, when you push in the clutch the tranny pump stops the tank runs empty you have no hydraulics, now maybe your loader is bypassing that system somehow but a standard 20 series JD runs out of oil not soon after the clutch is depressed, and there is no fix because the tranny pump needs to turn to fill that tank, and the only reason the tank is there is beause JD knew there hydaulic pump couldnt suck oil out of the tranny and not lose its prime with its overly comlicated power hungry hydraulic system that they marketed as being so great. Which brings me to why you have to shake the steering wheel to start them. When new with no oil leaks the pump has the ability to sence the need for oil, and goes into stroke to pump, as the tractor aged it develops internal leaks and the oil pressure leaks off of the system when you go to start the tractor the pump sences a call for oil and strokes the pump and the starter does not have enough power to turn the engine and a hydraulic system charging to high pressure at the same time, shaking the steering wheel sometimes tricks the system into releasing the high pressure so the engine can turn. John Deere than offeres a destroke kit which was standard on the newer tractors that was electric and when you hit the starter a solonoid destoked the pump mechanically to start the engine and as soon as you released the key swith it let the pump go into stroke.
As far as John Deeres numbers on production, like I said in the past JD numbers are not consecutive, and actual numbers are near impossible to find out, using the the two cylinder magazine as a guide would be like asking a chevrolet dealer if he thought chevy made a good product, that cat is john deeres biggest cheer leader and half the stuff he publishes is pure BS with no proof other than what JD has told him, and when challenged about his "facts" he gets very diffensive , him and that JR Hobbs are both full of crap on there statistics and history of Deere products and are written as a giant ad propigating the Deere "legend".
The message about the combines numbers Im not sure what you mean but your not comparing apples to apples, a 7720 Deere is L2 size and M2 would be 6620, Ive had a M2-L2 66-77 8820 and a 9500, and honestly the M2 would be a far better deal for 8500 than a 7720 at 15,000, but here in Wisconsin you can buy a 9500 in the lo 20's and L2 bring almost that much so Im not sure of your point.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 8:26pm |
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Kc GRAIN YOU ARE WRONG. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE 4020 hydraulics. I do and I know adding the check valve fixed at least 40 tractors since I found out about it. So long as the check valve doesn't leak and the hydraulic loads are properly connected to return oil to the front tank that front reservoir holds enough to allow continuous cylinder cycling, steering, and braking.
The article in the Jan/Feb 2008 two cylinder magazine is based on the JD production logs that the magazine has, based on COUNTING the tractors as logged. It does not depend on serial numbers alone.
Gerald J.
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Kcgrain
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Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 8:51pm |
Well sorry to say Gerald I am not wrong we went threw this whole procedure on a 4520 John Deere and a 4020 I personally owned the 4520 and my friends 4020 is the same way but smaller. I personally owned a 4520 4320 4440 4640 4455 4955 4960 7520 and 8640 and we installed the destroke kit on all of these tractors except the 4955 and the 4960, and even the 8640 had the same hydraulic system that if the clutch was down the system ran out of oil, and actually lost a transmission in the 8640 because when the tractor goes up a grade the oil flows to the back of the housing starving the tranny of oil which lets the bearings fail. I have probably had as much expierence with these JD tractors as anyone, and can tell you from expierence and with my check book what a JD tractor is all about. Now your 4020 may be some what different than I described and maybe you have a PS which keeps that tank full, but on the rest of the older 20 series tractors there is no oil flowing to the front tank with out the tranny spinning, the remotes flow back to sump the power steering flows back to sump the 3 pt flows back to sump, and tomorrow when I am back in our shop I will dig out our service manual we still have on the 20 series tractors to confirm it.
I do not believe anything written in Green Magazine and wouldnt believe John Deere would ever release actual production numbers to him. John Deere isnt even honest enough to include the weight of there tractors, its another gaurded secret. Look up any Jd literature or operating manual and it gives operating weight, what the hell is that. AC always posted shipping weight the actual weight of the tractor before options, front weights duals quick hitch etc. I wish I had a dime for everytime a JD guy told me how much heavier built a John Deere was compared to an AC, how would anyone know unless your a tractor puller and actually weighed your tractor you have no idea, and a JD manual or sales lit never published it, or what they considered operating weight.
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Lonn
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Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Location: Назарово,Russia
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Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 8:51pm |
Gerald J. wrote:
Kc GRAIN YOU ARE WRONG. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE 4020 hydraulics. I do and I know adding the check valve fixed at least 40 tractors since I found out about it. So long as the check valve doesn't leak and the hydraulic loads are properly connected to return oil to the front tank that front reservoir holds enough to allow continuous cylinder cycling, steering, and braking.
The article in the Jan/Feb 2008 two cylinder magazine is based on the JD production logs that the magazine has, based on COUNTING the tractors as logged. It does not depend on serial numbers alone.
Gerald J.
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It took a fix though didn't it. Was that fix around 30 years ago? Maybe. I don't remember covering it in school but that's been 20 years ago so maybe I forgot.
About the combine prices. Like I said before, I would hope that a machine built by a company that is still around would have a better resale value than a machine built by a company that's been gone for 25 years. But, take a look at the Equipment Guide books from the 70's and it's clear that Gleaner combines had THE highest resale over any other make period. Couple that with them being lower cost to buy and it added up to real good value. Probably not you Gerald, but many Deere people just can't accept those facts. It's like a bitter pill or something and although I can show them the books they just can't fathom that something like a Gleaner was at one time thought of as a better value than the Deere.
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