The lust for john deere??
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23161
Printed Date: 10 Nov 2024 at 12:26pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The lust for john deere??
Posted By: Ryan Renko
Subject: The lust for john deere??
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2010 at 8:50pm
| A buddy of mine is looking for a mounted mower to put behind his ford tractor to take care of his recently purchased property. He is looking for something around 6 foot. I am trying to lead him away from the bargain mowers you may find at the farm stores for something better. We have a Rhino brand we use and Woods is a great name also. Just for sh*ts and grins I checked out john deere mowers that were similar. I ABOUT FELL OVER!! Are they gold plated or wtf???? How can they justify those prices?? Ryan |
Replies:
Posted By: Mike NEIN
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2010 at 9:26pm
| If you wear green underwear then they can sucker you into anything! LOL. |
Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2010 at 9:39pm
| In 1995 we traded off a 1969 John Deere 4020. This tractor had the original bearings in the engine, the original transmission and the original rear end. It also had 37,000 hours on it. That's how John Deere gets those prices. |
Posted By: Pat the Plumber CIL
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2010 at 9:54pm
|
I bought a new Woods brand finish mower 6' this past summer.Very happy with it so far.Paid about 600 to 700 more than the cheapies,but it is well worth it.Does a very good job and parts can be found easy ------------- You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails 1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2010 at 9:55pm
|
That would mean it was used a minimum of 4 hours a day for every day of its ownership to come out to 37,000 hours. No days off and no hollidays .
Or 6 hours a day for 5 days every week over 26 years
If he is going to be using it just a few times a year or just doing small plot then the lower price units might be the best bang for the buck. ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2010 at 10:14pm
I bought my MX8 used....saved about $2000. I'm not looking forward to when it wears out (which it shouldn't)...... I've put a lot of hours on LandPride 6 foot mowers. They held up well and I got most of my money back when I sold them with around 400 hours on them.
 ------------- ALLIS EXPRESS! This year: |
Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2010 at 10:26pm
| John Deere sucks! |
Posted By: Denis in MI
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2010 at 10:30pm
quite a statement, ------------- 1938 B, 1945 B, 1941 IB, 1949 C, 2 1938 WCs, 3 1950 WDs, 1951 WD, 2 1955 WD45, 1957 D-14 |
Anthony wrote:Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 12:24am
|
I have 3 John Deeres (4030,2440,350C Dozer) and they are really good tractors. But one thing that you find out quickly about a JD is that you are paying for the name and the green paint. For example, you could take a 80hp 4030 John Deere like ours and a 6080 AC with the same amount of hours and in the same condition and the John Deere would run you about 3-7 thousand more than the AC. The AC is just as good but the JD's definitely hold their values. My dad wants a 2 cyl. JD and it don't take long to find out that you will be in big money. ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 2:38am
| we've had (though the years) case, international,john deere, & allis, i started the farm with allis chalmers when i took the farm over. reason? could get more tractor for the money and a better warranty than other brands! i still have some of my fathers IH tractors, got rid of the john deeres as they were to hard on fuel consumtion compared to allis, the case was traded off a few years before i took over. i still like case and IH, but i love the allis's. when i bought the first allis...brand new, the local john deere dealer's salesman drove out to my farm and called me an SOB for buying the allis over the john deere! that...ruined his chances of ever selling me anything from that dealer! well...that dealer is no longer in business! imagine that! must have done the same thing to other farmers in the area! i had tried to buy another piece of equipment and stopped at a john deere dealer in another town, they asked me what i had for equipment then...and i told them allis. they didn't even want to talk to me. soooo...i didn't buy that piece from john deere either! i remember dad trying to work with john deere dealers when he was farming, and unless he bought new every year, they treated him like chit too! i'll stay orange and red, i won't even drive into a john deere lot anymore! |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 2:43am
| oh yeah...one more thing....they forget that it's MY money, and for ME to give it to them...they need to be a little more respectable! |
Posted By: powertech84
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 8:43am
| http://www.deere.com/specsapp/CustomerCompetitorDetailsServlet?sbu=Ag&userAction=GETCOMPMODELS&pciModel=0MX6XP&displayModelName=MX6%20Rotary%20Cutter&tM=FR&pNbr=0MX6XP - http://www.deere.com/specsapp/CustomerCompetitorDetailsServlet?sbu=Ag&userAction=GETCOMPMODELS&pciModel=0MX6XP&displayModelName=MX6%20Rotary%20Cutter&tM=FR&pNbr=0MX6XP See for yourself. I've used deere, landpride and rhino mowers, and i think the deere mowers are probly the toughest, although rhino's aren't bad either. Landpride seems like more of a light duty pasture mower type to me, just not quite as heavy but would be fine for triming weeds and stuff. Deere also sells the frontier line which is basically landpride painted an off color green. |
Posted By: Rick of HopeIN
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 9:00am
|
Deere usually runs at least two lines in small equipment. My brother got a JD mower with a used Deere 750 a few years back. The tractor has been great but the mower was built poorly and he ended up selling it with the small ford tractor he was replacing and keeping an old Woods that was built much better.
------------- 1951 B, 1937 WC, 1957 D14, -- Thanks and God Bless |
Posted By: BearcatnorthMN
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 10:29am
| I have had a WD for about 5 years now. My first tractor and I love it. I also bought a 5' brush mower at the Fleet in Bemidji. I cost about $800. I only mow about 4 - 5 acres and it works great for that. I use it twice a year. It is pasture and the horses don't eat the thistles and some other weeds so I polish things up with it. |
Posted By: Steve K
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 10:43am
|
I purchased a new John Deere 8120 in 1991 . I used it for eigth years and solld it for exactly what I paid for it. That is a major reason why I buy John Deere equipment.
Steve
|
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 10:47am
| I don't really know if it is lust. I think it is more about stability. Even the most avid JD haters have to admit that JD is a stable company. Now JD is cashing in on that stability by putting a premium price on their equipment. People that like stability cough up that extra premium cuz they think it is worth it. |
Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 11:14am
| Coke-in-Mn, this 4020 started out as Dad's main tractor, then spent the last 15 years on the feed wagon, feeding cattle 6 hours a day seven days a week. |
Posted By: acwdwcman
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 11:17am
|
well i have a buddy that has all of the 2 cylenders except a hwh (high crop h). he has an 830 rice special with a pony motor,a high crop g. 2 unstyled g's, styled g and almost everything else. thats alot of money. he wants a water loo boy, but he wont get one any time soon. he also has 2 steam engines: he has a keck gonnerman and a 1880's huber. ------------- wd with a freeman model 90 trip loader, wd45, 38 unstylled wc, b 10 garden tractor and 2-14 ac trip plow. grandpa has a 56 wd45. wd. allis chalmers snap coupler blade and 3 bottom snap coupler plow |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 11:22am
There you have it. In my area back in the late 70's we had a real good Allis dealer and he switched a number of John Deere farmers into Allis equipment. One of our best neighbors (they let Dad house and milk his cattle in their barns when Dad's barn burned in 76') were all John Deere but bought a new 7040 PS. The farmer loved it and it started better than his 4430 and 4630 so it got the winter chores. I remember his son's, who I idolized, hated this Allis because they were raised on John Deere. I would ride with them in the 7040 in the winter sometimes and they would rev it way up and dump the clutch to try to wreck it. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 11:25am
I think you better ask your Dad if the tractor really never had any major work done to it cause it sounds a bit far fetched unless it had an overhaul or 2. How many cattle did he have to feed for 6 hours per day? ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: norm[ind]
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 11:46am
|
allis chalmers quit making 2 cylinders in the 30's took deere 30 yrs to figure that out who designed the 6 cyl. for deere ??? was not deere you fellas are not old enough on some of the older stories we know backed more than one deere lover up when i mention it i got a $100.00 to bet where is yours??? end of conversation had a deere farmer
in this week that just a caseih for near &100,000 an larger than what deere jus priced him deere thought he had him fooled too wait till i drive it home this was in mich
|
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 11:50am
Was it Hercules? I know they used the Hercules for awhile in combines. I have a second guess but I think my second guess had more to do with Deere 2 cylinder diesels. My second guess is big and yellow today. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 11:53am
| Coke-in-MN, sometime in the late 80's the tractor had the sleeves/pistons replaced, and the head redone. At that time we were feeding about 12,000 head of cattle. So between feeding, cleaning yards, hauling bedding, the 4020 stayed busy. |
Posted By: norm[ind]
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 11:56am
|
you got me stated now went to a plowday thi spring with my grandson's first time was plwing away told him to look aroumd HE SAID WHAT LOOK AROUND ONLY ALLISCHALMERS & INT . IN OUR FEILD AS KEPT CATCHING THEM THE DEERE ALL WENT TO ANOTHER FEILD SO THEY WER BY THEMSELVES ASKED WHY AT NOON
NO ANSWER FROM THEM GOING BACK NEXT YR. TO AGITATE AGAIN
|
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 11:57am
Don't hold back bigal. LOL You forgot to say something here. I don't mean to offend you either but I have heard many like stories that it turns out when you dig there is more to it. I don't doubt that the 4020 was a good tractor. I've run one but this is an Allis forum so expect some grief. Good luck ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 12:05pm
If anyone here remembers (can't believe I forgot the guys name) at the LeSuer Pioneer Days they had a plowing area and this guy had a WD45 that he plowed with but the Deere folks told him to keep that little tractor out of the way if he was going to plow. He ended up waiting on big 720's and G's cause he would easily catch them. They ended up coming to him and telling him the plowing demo was going to shut down until the next day so he went to his display area with the 45. A couple hours later he looked and the Deere guys were out plowing by themselves. He just let them alone. I want to say his name was Dave ????????. He used to come into the Allis shop where I worked once in a while to gossip. That was 20 years ago and he's gone now. I'm sure there are people here that know who I'm talking about and know the details of the plowing demo that day. It's gonna bother me until someone tells me the name of this Allis man. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 12:10pm
|
The JD 350 I looked at was 2500 hours on it and when I ran it for demo I called it a BANG / SCREECH shifting process, jerk bang change direction, screech into other direction and then jerk bang shift again.
asked salesman about it and then mentioned i had A AC HD5G and HD5B I was going to replace one of them he waved it off as well you have to expect a little noise form older tractor , until I mentioned both the AC had over 10,000 hours on them and ran smoother than the 350. ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 12:18pm
| Lon, if you read my original post, I said the the 4020 had the original bearings in the engine. Yes the top end had been overhauled. Since this tractor was used so much, we changed oil in the engine every 75 hours, and the rest of the oils every year. You have to remember, for most of this tractors life, it was never worked hard. We also had a 7010 that had 17,000 hours on it. This tractor had one overhaul, and that was due to electrolysis in the lower part of the block. Also on the 7010, every year we would pull the top off the differential, and replace the shaft that went through the spider gears. Over the years, we have found that this was the weak spot of the rear end of these tractors, especially if used during the winter as yard tractors. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 12:27pm
|
Was looking at the Brush Hog and the Squealer mowers at the MF / former AC dealer here locally but still wonder if the Mower sold by Fleet Farm would not work as good for the limited use I need.
I have a 6' ford flail mower I use benind my IH 460 Industrial but it requires a lot of HP to run that mower for some reason . Would like to sell or trade it off and thats where might have to buy from dealer. ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: LoggerLee
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 12:30pm
|
Depends on what you like probably,my Uncle has a 4020,and it's a dang good machine,I won't pay the kind of money he did though,so I buy the value. Seems like green tractors with the jumping critter on them and yellow feline machines cost quite a bit more,so I don't have any of those yet,but if one presents itself at a fair price I'll snag it too. (those two brands also seem like the type you can put anyone on and they'll hold up,some other brands need to be run a certain way,by actual "operators") |
Posted By: Russ SCPA
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 12:33pm
|
If you are really serious about a good solid rotary cutter, hold your pocketbook, cry a bunch and buy a Schulte. The quality will be remembered long, long after the higher price is forgiven.
I have Schulte V-1280 and it is TOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 12:37pm
| Coke I have a squealer and wouldn't recomend it to anyone. Although living in the Ozarks will get the goodie out of any mower. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 12:47pm
Yes, I see that there was more than what I understood. Dad put 12,000 hrs on his gasser XT before I put in pistons and sleeves. It just needed standard bearings. Not bad for a gas tractor. It had 2,500 hrs on it when he got it and we don't know it's history before. I did hit a small sinkhole when moving round bales with it back in the eighties. Hit so hard I hit my head on the cab ceiling. A couple months later the axle bearing went out when plowing on that same side. The race was cracked. On the final drive of the 7010, when I worked at the Allis dealer back in the early 90's we rarely heard of any final drive problems but not too many were yard tractors. The 4 years I spent at the Allis dealer we had one go out in a 7020 and one in the abused 7040 that I had mentioned before earlier. Other than shift cables and nickel and dime minor things the 7000 series and 8000 series were very reliable for Allis. Other than the crank issues with some of the 7080's and the occasional burned through sleeve from a dripping injector and of course the electrolysis caused problems. But having worked at both CaseIH and Allis dealers I can say with confidence that the Allis tractors are much more reliable. They still don't carry the resale of a lot of IH tractors. So in short what I'm saying is Deere has great resale not just because they have good equipment but because of it's stability. I have old equipment guides from the 70's and Allis 7000 series had as good resale as Deere and the combines had superior resale even when the initial cost was lower when new. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 1:11pm
I've seen some toilets even in green that people, not operators, have managed to run into the ground so I wouldn't agree with that so much. Ever seen how costly syncronizers can get? Then there's the clutch jobs that a 4020 will need eventually after normal use. You can't slip that dry clutch much without eventually paying for it. Dad's D17 has had one clutch job all it's life or at least since 73' when he bought it cause the hand clutch was used for almost everything except when going from forward to reverse. It had a loader on it so that's why it got it's only clutch job. That tractor got ran everyday until he quit milking in 97'. One day Dad and I dug out all the receipts for work done to it. I overhauled the engine in 93' and that's when I put a clutch in it. Governor weights came apart in mid 80's. In 73 when he got it the hydraulic cylinder in the rear end needed a seal kit. New bushings in the front axle in 98'. That's it. Oh a new Nelson muffler in 93' too. Still on the tractor today as is the loader. That tractor did all the manure hauling in the winter every other day and all the snow bucking (lots of snow back then like this year). All the feed grinding. All the silage (bucking from a silage pile) and round bale hauling in the winter which was every day. A lot of the planting. Most of the discing and all of the cultivating until the D19 we got in 87 took over the discing and cultivating. It did all the square baling and all the grain drilling. Although the WD was the first tractor I ever drove it's the 17 I learned to do almost everything on. That was and still is a good tractor. Needs the hand clutch ramps and rollers replaced now. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: acwdwcman
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 1:19pm
|
4020 is one of the only john deeres that i like.
but why buy an expensive john deere when you can buy an allis that is so much better ------------- wd with a freeman model 90 trip loader, wd45, 38 unstylled wc, b 10 garden tractor and 2-14 ac trip plow. grandpa has a 56 wd45. wd. allis chalmers snap coupler blade and 3 bottom snap coupler plow |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 1:19pm
|
I really think the dealer is the key. Sure there are people who bleed green or orange but if the dealer is fairly close, gives good service and is honest, they are the ones who are going to stay in business, and get the business. My nearest dealer is a JD/MF (mostly for the Hesston hay equipment) They nearly lost their JD dealership a couple years ago but only kept it because the BIG chain dealer 40 miles up the road didn't want to open another store, or take over the existing dealer, for whatever reason. The parts and sales people are great to work with and have gone out of their way to get an AC part for me when they didn't have to. Most of my hay equipment is Hesston so perhaps they want to keep me as a customer. The Ford (NH) dealer that went out of business a year ago was the one with an attitude. Most real farmers went up the road 45 miles to the next Ford store because of the way we were treated by the sales people. Parts guys weren't quite as bad but their prices were always 15% higher then the dealer up the road.
------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 2:48pm
|
JD engineers designed the 4020 and 3020 in isolation over about a four year period. The only constraint they had was to fit the size of the 720/730. They looked at V and flat engines. The transmission gets the effect of two separate gear boxes all in one short transmission with three shafts (plus a reverse shaft). Its confusing to shift until you learn it. The shifter is set up as three gears synchronized (two forward, one reverse) and four ranges unsynchronized. The dry clutch is fairly hefty and lasts pretty good. Its not messy to replace. When I went shopping for a taller tractor to suppliment my MF-135 on my farm but to allow more crop clearance for cultivating and spraying, I looked at AC and others, but for EACH AC I found for sale, I found 2 dozen 65 to 90 HP JD new generation tractors and when a dealer had an AC, he wanted more than the JDs brought. I bought a gas 4020 because the green paint premium wasn't nearly so much and I know how to tune a gas tractor. Its needed ignition work twice in the last decade, once when I got it and once last year partly from not being run for a year. At this age a diesel 4020 is on its first injection pump rebuild for about $500 (same pump was used on some AC diesels that shells out the plastic governor ring wiith age) that would have bought 15 or 20 sets of plugs and points for the gas 4020. Yes the gas 4020 is one of the poorest tractors for fuel economy, but with steering by power and brakes by power, its one of the tractors that takes the least effort to drive. No one ever looks for aftermarket power steering to add because it didn't come any other way. And for the $4k premium price of a diesel ten years ago, I figured I could buy all my gasoline for the 4020 for about 14 years. Turned out it needed a bit of tuning and I was able to improve on that considerably. Cut the consumption from 400 gallons the first year to 250 after that. Doing the same work that the MF-135 did on 110 gallons in three times as many days of field work. The AC 2000 monobeam plow was a good load for the 4020. And covered a lot more ground per day than the 2 bottom Case plow did with the MF-135. The selection of the used JD was much greater in that size tractor than any AC. So I went green. I pulled implements of all colors. Gerald J. |
Posted By: RSallis-pullinMD
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 3:37pm
| I don't lust for Deere,I just use common sense,we have to look at service and parts when we work our equipment for a living.I have 5 JD tractors and work all of these on a daily basis and our dealer is only 6 miles from my driveway.Have New Holland dealer about some distance but not the reputation of the Deere dealer.When my dad and I farmed all AC we had one dealer 5 miles and 2 more within 20 miles and 1 more about 30 miles.Today our closest AC dealer over 100 miles in another state.NO BRAINER!!! |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 6:53pm
|
The isolation Gerald talks about was a building I remember as a Super Valu grocery store on Falls ave just up from Ansborough ave in Waterloo.
Weather we like them or hate them, they had a power shift trans long before A-C did. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Russ SCPA
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 6:55pm
| R50 here has a sticker from a Deutz Allis dealer in Salisbury, Md. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 7:19pm
|
JD bought the patent rights to Ford's select O Speed transmission and then proceeded to remove two speeds from it. I do think linkage is better then cables for shifting transmissions but which is cheaper to rebuild/replace. Sometimes my 7580 is a mystery shift.
------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 8:09pm
|
And JD hired Ford's transmission designer so he knew what was wrong with his first design and avoided those problems with the JD Power Shift. Cables rust in place, linkages wear loose at the joints. Both need maintenance. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 9:09pm
|
I don't know about lusting for a Deere tractor, I'm not a Deere hater but the tractors aren't high on my preferences, though a old 60 might be tempting if was cheap and nice LOL.
We've had several green planters and combines but the only green tractor was dads first tractor, an A he bought brand new. He was never very happy with it. His next tractor was a Massey 44, then he replaced the A with a WD45. We've had AC's from then on, a series I D17 diesel, a series IV D17 gas, a couple 190 XTs, an 8600 Ford and a 7060.
As I grew up, besides our tractors I ran neighbors IH H, M, 460 and 560, assorted little Fords, JD 50, 60, 70, 3010 and 4020. I would take our series IV D17 over anything on that list other than the 4020, and I would preferr our series III XT to a 4020 any day.
Later on after we had the 7060 I ran friends 966, 1066 and 4430. The 966 and 1066 cabs and controlls were not as well designed as our 7060 and the IH rear ends howled like a banshi. The Quad range transmission on the 4430 was always getting stuck in park and the Sound Gaurd was cramped with poor visability compared to the 7060 not to mention I've always thought they were the ugliest tractor Deere ever built.
Today my work tractors are my 8050 and my venerable 7060. My neighbor and I work back and forth, he has a 4455 with a Sound Guard cab and a Quad Range transmission that always gets stuck in park (and it's butt ugly), and an 8100 that is a pretty sweet tractor. The 8100 is pretty close to what I think the 8050/8070 would have evovled into if AC had survived.
I also think Deeres 7000 series is the best looking tractors they've ever built. I'd like a 7800 to replace the old 7060 but their high resale value means there are other colors just as good that will be a better buy. High resale value is great on your balance sheet or if you trade for new every few years. But if your like me and buy 10 or 15 year tractors and keep them for 10 years or more it's not really a plus.
|
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 9:45pm
|
I was told by one feller I know that the new generation engines (3010/4010)were designed by Mack. I have never heard or seen anything to confirm this though. Ed.
------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 11:52pm
|
The books on the design of the JD new generation tractors puts the engine design purely on the crew in isolation. They apparently didn't consider out side sources. All they knew was that the 2 cylinder production machinery was about worn out so it was all going to be replaced. Though it was shipped to South America and two cylinder tractors were built there for several years more after the new generation tractors came out in 1960. Gerald J. |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 2:44am
| at the time i bought my 7010 new in 1980, it was $7000 cheaper that JD, and $3000 cheaper that IH, and had a 3 year warranty compared to JD and IH's 1 year warranty. i still have the 7010! when i bought it, i hooked a 5-bottom plow on and went plowing bottom ground, my neighbor had a new JD, but i can't remember the # of it...he had one of those extra fuel tanks mounted on the front. at noon he left to go home to refuel. i kept plowing, at about 5 pm he stopped before going home and asked if i had refueled yet? i hadn't, but was low on fuel, had about an 8th of a tank left. i think the 7010 holds about 50 or so gallons, thinking he went thru about 100 gallons or better that day, plowed same area, he was just across the field road we both shared on the same type ground. |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 2:48am
| also....what did JD ever really invent themselves...the 1 bottom plow pulled behing an oxen or horse? everything else they copied from other brands! and they still try to do it! JD have lost so many patent infringement court cases than anyone else! |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 2:49am
| also.... i do know that val-mont in valley nebraska built their rear ends for them for many years! |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 3:03am
| i still have my 7010, still a good tractor, has never been apart for anything. i did have a new valve cover gasket put on once, and a new turbo this year, 1 new window glass that a neighbor kid shot out, other that tires/batteries/and the usual up keep, it still runs great and everything still works...oh yeah, i did replace the AC compressor last year. the neighbor i was talking about in the previous post, has replaced his JD tractors about 7-8 times since 1980.....whose pockets has he padded?? i just keep putting all that money in my pockets. that where all the resale money is! i think if i would just give that tractor away to someone, i would still be money ahead! |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 10:09am
|
Deere won one patent infringement case against IH for their corn head. IH copied it so close that IH parts would pass Deere parts inspections. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Terry G
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 10:58am
| My dad bought an almost new 4020 with power shift at a farm auction back in the 60's for $5000.00. A few years back he and his friend were at a farm auction and one sold for almost $10,000. His buddy that was with him at the first auction looked at him and said didn't you pay $ 5000 for yours 35 years ago? Dad is retired now in NE SD but still has his 4020 and 620. He and his friend did have reversed AC wc or wd's in the 70's. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 12:39pm
|
There are two generations of 4020. The older on has the hydraulic and three point controls on the dash, the later has a side console between the seat and the right fender. I think they sold in the $7K range when new depending on options. The older 4020s are selling today for 6 to 10K, 6 for gas, 10 for diesel. The later 4020 sell for up to 14 or 15K. The diesel aren't nearly the fuel hogs of the gas, but there were a few tractors with poorer fuel economy. But when I bought my gas 4020 about ten years ago for $5250, I figured I could buy all its gasoline for 14 years with the $4K price premium for a diesel. Gerald J. |
Posted By: BStone
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 1:50pm
| At the present time I have (2) 185's..A 6060..7045 and a 8070.I just sold my 7020 and 7060.On the JD side I have a 4640..2640....2630 and a 2030.I have always like the AC's and still do.BUT the JD's have been good tractors and theres no comparison when it comes to dealers,parts, or resale value.I have heard of how more economical the AC's are compared to the JD's in fuel consumption but I can't see that much difference.When pulling hard the 8070 and 7045 both use the fuel,I have heard that switching to Bosh injectors would really help but haven't changed any yet.I love the AC's and have heard how much better the 8000 series were than the 40 series JD but I'll have to say that the JD 4640 can stay up with the AC 8070 fwa in dry ground.If a younger man is planning on staying in business for the long term he needs to be running green tractors.I know some will totally disagree with me and I don't plan on selling any of my AC's (still love them) but thats the way I see it.BStone |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 1:55pm
| Ilove John Deere people they make life so much more interesting. A 4020 with 37,000 hrs thats impressive, but the first problem is John Deere ran a 45 minute hour so if this tractor actually logged 37,000 hrs that would be 27,750hrs actual. The second problem with this senerio is he must have a very special 4020 to have a tach that actully worked that long, and the fact it didnt have a 5 digit tach.I personally overhauled a 200 that had logged 27,000 hrs on it, it spun a bearing finally, and the owners knew it was gettingbad but wanted to see just how far it would go. And to be totally honest the last years of it logging alot of hours werent hard labor either, but these same guys had a 220 that had 21,000 hrs on it that did hard labor. They also had an 8070 Fwa that got sold off when they died that got them $12,000 more for it than they paid bought in 1985 sold in 2009. So your JD resale doesnt fly, also John Deere didnt build an 8120 in 1991 and you didnt sell it for the same price you traded it in to your JD dealer who inflated the number to make you feel good about being screwed. I started farming with AC switched totally to JD in the 1990's figured the scam out with my checkbook quickly and got rid of John Deere not long after that, with no regrets I might ad. I sold machinery for dealers and sold equipmet on my own and I can tell you that JD resale is on a JD lot only, in real life it doesnt bring squat if it doesnt have JD financing behind it. Yes auctions do sometimes bring high prices but not nearly as often as you think, its a always a big deal to hear about a high dollar JD selling someplace, but I have seen actions where AC stuff brings high numbers but its not publicated in every farm magazine. John Deere is a mediocre product at best with the greatest marketing department in the world and if you fall for it that they did there job. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 2:10pm
|
Yah you have to look at the teeth to know a 4020's work history. Particularly the steering wheel, the pedals, and the generator pulley. I suspect mine has been around a while, the sides of the generator pulley were worn parallel. Didn't pull the generator very good. The water pump pulley was worn but not as much. Many a tachometer hasn't lasted the life of the tractor, whether JD or any other make. If it wasn't the tach it was the tach cable. But will any tractor made in 2011 still be running in2061? Likely the electronic parts will have been forgotten by then and can't be replicated one at a time for restoration. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 3:31pm
|
This discussion is starting to look like fun. Like I said before Allis had real good resale according to my Equipment Guide books I have from the 70's. What has changed for Allis since then. Bankruptcy ring a bell? I would sure hope and expect that equipment from a company that is still in business would have higher resale than equipment from a company that has been gone for 25 years. What does a standard equipped 4020 have that a standard 190XT doesn't? I can tell you what a 190 XT has that a 4020 doesn't. Turbocharger for high torque and high fuel economy; opposed intake and exhaust for cooler running engine; an alternator instead of the pretty wimpy generator; dry air cleaner vs messy, frequently neglected oil bath; spin on oil filters vs messy canister style; easily power adjusted front and rear tread; tilt steering; big as a ballroom operator's platform; side console controls for all hydraulic functions, hi low shift and throttle; wet hand clutch; 48 gal fuel tank. Am I forgetting anything? 4020 has closed center hydraulics for fuel economy (how much more fuel would it have sucked with an open center pump?); power brakes; I can't think of anything else. Was the Independent PTO standard? If so then IPTO vs Live PTO. Significant options for each: 190XT hydraulically actuated PTO clutch 4020 8 speed Power Shift; Differential lock
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: BStone
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 4:57pm
| Your right Lonn.The AC's are a good investment for the money.I bought the 8070 fwa with 6675 hrs from the original owner in sept. of 09 for $10.650 55 miles from my place.He was a farmer who had been on AC tractors since the 60's but has gone to green.The JD dealer called me to come to the field and try it out.... |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 5:08pm
|
4020 had independent PTO always. Didn't need a 6' long operator's deck to fit over two transmissions one behind the other, did it all in one short transmission box. 4020 went to dry air cleaner about 1965 at SN 91000. And unlike the 190 XT, the 4020 had enough pinions in the differential it didn't self destruct when worked. Had differential lock as an option also. Power steering and power brakes. JD made 193,852 4020 and 4000 (stripped version) after 57,572 4010. Plus 87,993 3020 (four cylinder version) after 45,222 3010. AC only wished such production numbers. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 5:36pm
I knew I could get you going but the "6' long operator's deck" wasn't to cover up two transmissions. It was for operator comfort. The dry air cleaner came along in 68 for the 4020 I believe. True, the early 190's had differential problems but the 4020 Power Shift had it abortions too. They both had finger tip power steering. I don't know how many Deere heads I've talked to that thought no one had power steering like a 4020 and I mentioned the power brakes. If production numbers make them the best than you would have to admit the WD45 is better than a 60 or that any Gleaner Allis built from the mid 60's through the 70's is better than Deere's comparable models. I like this discussion.
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 6:12pm
| 4020 JD didnt destroy the tranny or rear ends because they had no power to do so the 404 engine even with a turbo was a huge Dog with a capitol D. Bolt a 301 turbo into your 4020 and see just how tough they actually are.Which reminds me of a story My friends dad had a 200 AC they bought new, for as long as they had it it pulled 5-18 plow and worked roughly 400 acres with a 18 ac disc and and a 20ft pony drag pulled behind. Around 1985 his son my friend bought a 4020, he was farming next door to his dad and didnt want to borrow the 200 anymore so he bought his own tractor and he thought the 4020 was just the greatest thing since sliced bread. He got the tractor around this time of year and in spring he decided to work his land for planting oats he went home unhooked the 200 from the disc pony drag combo hooked his 4020 to it and went home to work land unfolded the disc dropped the pony darg took off and sat right there, he unhooked the pony drag still couldnt pull it flipped up the wings on the disc and he could finally pull what a 200 had pulled for over 10 yrs. His dad thought it was hilarious and everytime I hear about how big and strong a 4020 is I remind of that day.The bottom line is the 4020 had features like a true live pto and hyd brakes, and a diff lock option, but at the end of the day an Allis Chlamers 190XT-200 would have buried that JD in work. And to any doubters, heres the challenge I have my uncles original 190xt S3 1970 model was the only 190XT AC made with 24.5-32 tires shipped from the factory, if you think your 4020 can take her in the field, on a chopper , blower or any other task bring it on, and bring money to bet because I know for an absoulute fact there is no standard 4020 even one with a turbo bolted on going to take it. We have had 4520 JD challenge it in the field, and 1066 IH both went home with there tail between there legs and the old XT standing proud. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 6:20pm
|
By 1968 some 90,000 4020 had been shipped with the dry air cleaner the '68 model year ended with sn 201,999 and included 184,000. One reference I have says SN 91,000 began the 1965 model year. I don't nap on the operator's deck and there are no gear shifts in the middle of the 4020 operator's deck so 6' feet of operator's deck serves no function for me. I've not experience PS failures, nor heard of them ever having a problem. They were a tough transmission. The SR is easier to break according to all accounts I know of. Gerald J. |
Posted By: TerrySWIA
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 6:24pm
| Could you John Deere lovers please explain, why when you hold in on the clutch for a couple of minutes on these new generation tractors, the pump kicks out and you lose steering and brakes. You can hold your clutch in on an Allis till the cows come home, and as long as the tractor is running you have steering and brakes. I was nearly killed one time pulling a trailer up a hill, when a 4620 spun out. I didn't want to put the tractor in park, because we all know how the JD transmission shifter binds up. While I was holding the clutch waiting for another tractor to pull me up the hill, I started rolling backwards, with no brakes or steering. I jack -knifed the trailer, to keep from rolling. The next morning I took the 4620 to my neighbor, who is one of the biggest Deere collectors in the country. I told him what happened, and asked how to fix it. He just looked at the ground, and shook his, and said " It wasn't one of their better ideas." |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 6:29pm
| You actually have no idea of how many 4020 were built, one reason is John Deere kept the official numbers confidential and 2 John deere does not and will not run a consecutive serial number, unlike Allis Chalmers whose numbers were no secret. So your argument of they must have been good becasue they made so many is pure speculation |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 6:30pm
| and the tranny should have been tough it was designed by ford and copied like most of JD accomplishemnts, from some body else |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 7:33pm
|
Your numbers are all messed up Gerald. Just how many 4020's do think were built anyhow? I know for a fact that all 4020's built in 1965 had the oil bath air cleaner. Just take the time to look at your next tractor show. Check the year and then look under the hood. Now I wouldn't want this discussion to get ugly. As of yet it's just been fun throwing facts around but just bring the facts or at least admit when it's speculation. I would love to own a 4020 some day and I don't think they were a bad tractor. Just that they certainly are not god like which is how many look at them. Oh, I would love to own a 4020 to bring to shows right next to my 190 XT. I just think that would be fun and also to give old fashioned type plow demo like there used to be back when these tractors were new. I would like to know for certain which one would end up on top, actually I already know as I have run both in the field and there is no other stock tractor of it's day that can out perform a 190 XT or 200.
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: BStone
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 7:36pm
| I own more AC's than I do JD's.I love the orange....but lets be truthful .JD didn't get to where there at by selling a poor product.Yes they have the best marketing system for farm tractors the world.Some of you guys get turned down for JD financing? |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 7:46pm
I agree and like I said........I don't think they were a bad tractor. Just that they certainly are not god like which is how many look at them but I am absolutely sure my stock XT will out perform a stock 4020 too.. They sold a good product but did it with great marketing to the point that many think the 60 outsold the 45. The marketing not only promotes today's tractors but has also manage to fantastically hype up the legacy of past models. Does anyone here really believe that an A was better than a WD or a 40 was better than a CA or that an H was anything good at all? Some do I guess but I would guess most don't and that even many Deere nuts would agrre to a point. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 7:53pm
Here ya go....a side by side comparison. Which one looks meaner??
 ------------- ALLIS EXPRESS! This year: |
Posted By: BStone
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:00pm
| Lonn I haven't owned a 4020, but have a 3020.I have owned a 190 and it was a good tractor.I never thought JD was in the tractor market until they came out with the 20 series tractors.I had a JD 60 and didn't care for it at all. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:06pm
Looks like that XT gave the old 4020 a goose egg on top of the old noggin. LOL ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:12pm
I really don't think a 4020 is a bad tractor and in fact is a good tractor and I also think that the XT was too easy to turn up and being an early turboed tractor I think Allis was caught off guard when farmers quickly turned a 95 hp tractor into a 125 or even up to 150 hp tractor. The 4020 wasn't so easy to turn up and ruin. That right there was the biggest problem for the XT. The 7000 series eventually fixed that problem. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: BStone
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:16pm
| No I maid a mistake when I was talking about when JD got competitive in the market.The 10 series....3010...4010...etc were the beginning of there start.BStone |
Posted By: BStone
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:19pm
| Eldon Wa You've got the goods...which tractor is the best...In your opinion??? |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:21pm
|
To be truthful JD got to where it is by a very well managed company selling a mediocre product with a financing plan that could make just about anybody credit worthy. It really has nothing to do with the actual product.John Deere was very smart by keeping dealers they could control, and forse to to market they way the company wanted.By convincing the people that John Deere was a status symbol rather than apiece of machinery to make you money by the work it performed, not by the so called resale value, or status of owning. The actual truth and the myth of JD equipment is miles apart and I speak from expierence in owning and operating both JD and AC. JD is a big marketer not manufacturer or equipment. many of JD equipment in ag and construction is made by other companies and JD badged, the public buys this BS thinking they bought some piece blessed by the JD gods.I always love the argument that JD has to be best because they are the biggest or because they are still in business. Well the fact of the matter is New Holland is the worlds largest manufactur of tractors and combines in the world and have been for years, so if thats the thinking than they must be the best. Not to keep beating a dead horse here on John Deere, you like what you like your convinced they are what they are for what ever reason, but in the grand scheme of things had there never been a John Deere what difference would it really make in the world? None they introduced or perfected nothing no one else had not already done including the JD legend of the polished plow, actualy Oliver was first. Now for the sake of argument where would the world be had there not been an Allis Chlamers. Allis Chlamers broke more records in manufacturing in design and engineering than any company ever according to the ASE to date. Not one mention of any earth shattering record or design from JD NONE. Anyone living on the west coast should wake up every morning and thank GOD that Allis Chalmers had been around . The majority of your electricity is produced on AC equipment that has been in service for years with no down time. The worlds largest and most poweful generators are at Grand Collie that no one can beat, even China who built a larger damm that produces more power couldnt match the capacity of the AC at grand Collie. They will in all actuality go down as the largest most powerful turbines ever made, designed and manufactured by Allis Chlamers, John Deere couldnt even fathom such a task. |
Posted By: beeman
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:24pm
|
I never owned a big Allis Chalmers . A WD45 and an ED40 were the largest. But I did once own a 4020 w/ power shift and a 401b loader tractor. All gave good service. But none of the Allis had to be woke up by shaking on the steering wheels while cranking.... ------------- 1949 B 3930 Ford- Have owned other Orange ,green,red,yellow,dark green tractors and equipment. |
Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:26pm
|
Bstone, the JDLP really doesn't compare to the XT diesel....and I think the XT is putting out about 40 more ponies....I've never put fuel in the JD in 3 years...not that is that fuel efficient LMAO! It does have good brakes, tho! It does take a good pull from an Orange tractor to get her fired up.... ------------- ALLIS EXPRESS! This year: |
Posted By: BStone
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:32pm
| Fair enough Eldon.I'll take your word.And yes Beeman your right.I had a 300B loader and now the 2640 and 2630 all you have to jerk and twist the steering wheel to get them started.BStone |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:51pm
I'm not familiar with this steering wheel thing to start them. Start the engine or to get the hydraulics to work? The 4020 and other 20 series I driven haven't need that but then almost every time they were all ready running when I would get on them. My father-in-law's 2010 never needed this but I certainly wouldn't brag about the rest of the tractor. It was a dog and hard starter and trying to move the rear wheel tread was impossible without major heat. I would rank a 2010 pretty low when I compare it to a D15 or D17. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 9:25pm
|
New generation JD tractors use two hydraulic pumps, one low pressure one in the transmission oils the transmission and keeps the oil reservoir/cooler up front filled. In the pre side console tractor there is a check valve that wears out and when then clutch is pushed in on the SR that pump starts and the oil leaks out of the front reservoir and you loose everything hydraulic. I found a Service Information on that adding a new check valve in an elbow outside the transmission. I have a web page about it at http://www.geraldj.networkiowa.com/4020si.htm I made that fix for my gas '68 4020 and I can let it set for months, push in the clutch, start it and holding the clutch in yet, lift the loader so the check valve really works. Many have been fixed based on my web page. Loss of steering hydraulics in later models (and the side console 4020) is not blamed on that check valve, apparently there isn't one but the index to service bulletins that I have blames it on hydraulic system leaks from the pressure circuit which might be any one of the valves, from steering to three point to brakes to remote to differential lock. The steering wheel shake is to drop the stored hydraulic pressure so the front hydraulic pump turns easier and a not overly powered starter has a better chance of starting the engine. There are those (discussion today on New AG Talk Machinery) who advocate a larger starter for both gas and diesel 4020. The production numbers I posted came from the Jan/Feb 2008 issue of the Two Cylinder Magazine and they based them on a count of the actual production logs from JDs Waterloo plant. The case for the dry air cleaner and the wet are very similar. Not at all obviously different unless you drop the pan and check for oil at the bottom. The bottom looks the same from the outside and its mounted the same way. The Deere PS transmission was NOT designed by Ford. It was designed by Ford's engineer then employed by Deere, no longer by Ford. He knew what was wrong with the SOS and compensated. I'll check my parts book someday on the oil vs dry air cleaner, but I remember the break at 91,000 which began the 1965 model year. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 9:27pm
|
The 1010 and 2010 came from the Dubuque works and were not Deere's best ideas. They are a world apart from good tractors and were hard to fix when new, harder now according to most that have had contact with them. The 1020 and 2020 are totally new designs again and good tractors though most outrageously priced when found used these days. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Jack(Ky)
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 9:37pm
| Eldon, be careful with the MX8. I have a customer that has a MX10 and he hit something last year and broke the output shaft right off the bottom of the gearbox. Ordered a new gearbox from JD and then this year broke the other one. They do not sell the shaft separate and has had the gearbox ordered from JD this time since September and still hasn't shown up.JP |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 10:50am
I knew about loosing hydraulic power when clutching but wasn't familiar with the pressure build up that hampered starting. I do know that if you hold the clutch in on a 4020 SR that the hydraulics will quit after a few seconds. I don't think adding or replacing a check valve can fix that. I found one book that says the dry air cleaner came in late 1966. Deere was notorious for having hard to follow and sometimes impossible to prove production numbers. I did some very involved research years ago on the production numbers of the A. Deere and most all books written by or sanctioned by Deere always claim that there were 300,000 A's built and also that there were exactly 300,000 B's. Most of the early models Deere claimed exact rounded numbers like 60,000 H's. When I researched the A and all of it's variations I could only come up with around 240,000 (if I remember my numbers right) from 1934 to 1952. The Allis WC and WD produced from 1934 to 1953 totaled around 330,000 tractors including the WF. Some will say that the WC and WD were two different tractors. They weren't that different and were in the same hp category and time frame as the A and never produced at the same time. As you probably know the WD replaced the WC. The early A was fairly different from the middle A and the late A was even more different. How many parts can be used from an early A to a late A? I know all the engine parts of the WD compared to a WC are virtually identical. The gears in the transmission are also the same and will swap but the WD gears are harder. I guess my beef with Deere is all the mythology created around them. They made plenty of lemons too just like most all companies but that's hardly ever mentioned by anyone. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 10:53am
Dad has an older Deere brush cutter bought in the 90's or later 80's that the shaft twisted off too. We could get a new shaft but it was very spendy compared to what the whole cutter cost. We set it next to a Woods once and the Woods was a much better built unit. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 11:03am
|
The check valve fixed my 4020. I was working on a basement excavation with a loader after that. I could sink the bucket in a wall, push in the clutch, break out that loader of hard dirt and spin the steering to the opposite stop (and the wheels followed) before I shifted to reverse and backed out. I've let it set 6 months, pushed in the clutch, started it and raised the loader off the floor without letting the transmission pump or the transmission run. Then turned the front wheels 30 degrees before letting out the clutch to spin the transmission and its pump. The check valve really did fix it. There's about 5 gallons of oil in the front reservoir/cooler and double acting cylinders return to that reservoir, not to the transmision. So it can work for a long time so long as the differential between the two sides of the cylinders being used isn't more than those 5 gallons and there's no pressure leak in any of the control valves. Worked for me and for many others that have worked from my web page. The production numbers I quoted came from years of counting tractors from the actual Waterloo production logs. Which are incomplete in the early years not showing which transmission was on each tractor when there was an option of PS or SR. The parts catalog will show when the change was from oil to dry air cleaner and there was also a retro kit to convert the earlier tractors that fit inside the oil bath air cleaner. Books based on remembering are as suspect as internet posts. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 2:33pm
Interesting, never knew they made a retro kit to fit in the oil bath housing. I've often thought that if I had the time I would like to make one for my WD and D17 but I've never taken the time to do it. The books weren't based on memory. My memory is based on memory. I do have all the paper work from the research I did on the A. I just looked at it a year or two ago so my memory might not get you the exact figure but I'm sure I'm real close. One day when I find all the figures I'll post them year by year. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Ryan Renko
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 7:40pm
| I'm amazed again. I'm checking out the classified and which would you rather have??? A 1979 john deere 7200 combine with 3800 hours for $15,000 or a 1979 Gleaner M2 with 2300 hours for $8,500?? |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 8:12pm
|
Actually on the 20 series tractors the hydraulic system works similar to what you explained with the exception that the tranny pump pumps oil to the 2 gallon tank on the front of the tractor directly over the main hydraulic pump, when you push in the clutch the tranny pump stops the tank runs empty you have no hydraulics, now maybe your loader is bypassing that system somehow but a standard 20 series JD runs out of oil not soon after the clutch is depressed, and there is no fix because the tranny pump needs to turn to fill that tank, and the only reason the tank is there is beause JD knew there hydaulic pump couldnt suck oil out of the tranny and not lose its prime with its overly comlicated power hungry hydraulic system that they marketed as being so great. Which brings me to why you have to shake the steering wheel to start them. When new with no oil leaks the pump has the ability to sence the need for oil, and goes into stroke to pump, as the tractor aged it develops internal leaks and the oil pressure leaks off of the system when you go to start the tractor the pump sences a call for oil and strokes the pump and the starter does not have enough power to turn the engine and a hydraulic system charging to high pressure at the same time, shaking the steering wheel sometimes tricks the system into releasing the high pressure so the engine can turn. John Deere than offeres a destroke kit which was standard on the newer tractors that was electric and when you hit the starter a solonoid destoked the pump mechanically to start the engine and as soon as you released the key swith it let the pump go into stroke.
As far as John Deeres numbers on production, like I said in the past JD numbers are not consecutive, and actual numbers are near impossible to find out, using the the two cylinder magazine as a guide would be like asking a chevrolet dealer if he thought chevy made a good product, that cat is john deeres biggest cheer leader and half the stuff he publishes is pure BS with no proof other than what JD has told him, and when challenged about his "facts" he gets very diffensive , him and that JR Hobbs are both full of crap on there statistics and history of Deere products and are written as a giant ad propigating the Deere "legend".
The message about the combines numbers Im not sure what you mean but your not comparing apples to apples, a 7720 Deere is L2 size and M2 would be 6620, Ive had a M2-L2 66-77 8820 and a 9500, and honestly the M2 would be a far better deal for 8500 than a 7720 at 15,000, but here in Wisconsin you can buy a 9500 in the lo 20's and L2 bring almost that much so Im not sure of your point.
|
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 8:26pm
|
Kc GRAIN YOU ARE WRONG. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE 4020 hydraulics. I do and I know adding the check valve fixed at least 40 tractors since I found out about it. So long as the check valve doesn't leak and the hydraulic loads are properly connected to return oil to the front tank that front reservoir holds enough to allow continuous cylinder cycling, steering, and braking. The article in the Jan/Feb 2008 two cylinder magazine is based on the JD production logs that the magazine has, based on COUNTING the tractors as logged. It does not depend on serial numbers alone. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 8:51pm
| Well sorry to say Gerald I am not wrong we went threw this whole procedure on a 4520 John Deere and a 4020 I personally owned the 4520 and my friends 4020 is the same way but smaller. I personally owned a 4520 4320 4440 4640 4455 4955 4960 7520 and 8640 and we installed the destroke kit on all of these tractors except the 4955 and the 4960, and even the 8640 had the same hydraulic system that if the clutch was down the system ran out of oil, and actually lost a transmission in the 8640 because when the tractor goes up a grade the oil flows to the back of the housing starving the tranny of oil which lets the bearings fail. I have probably had as much expierence with these JD tractors as anyone, and can tell you from expierence and with my check book what a JD tractor is all about. Now your 4020 may be some what different than I described and maybe you have a PS which keeps that tank full, but on the rest of the older 20 series tractors there is no oil flowing to the front tank with out the tranny spinning, the remotes flow back to sump the power steering flows back to sump the 3 pt flows back to sump, and tomorrow when I am back in our shop I will dig out our service manual we still have on the 20 series tractors to confirm it. I do not believe anything written in Green Magazine and wouldnt believe John Deere would ever release actual production numbers to him. John Deere isnt even honest enough to include the weight of there tractors, its another gaurded secret. Look up any Jd literature or operating manual and it gives operating weight, what the hell is that. AC always posted shipping weight the actual weight of the tractor before options, front weights duals quick hitch etc. I wish I had a dime for everytime a JD guy told me how much heavier built a John Deere was compared to an AC, how would anyone know unless your a tractor puller and actually weighed your tractor you have no idea, and a JD manual or sales lit never published it, or what they considered operating weight. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 8:51pm
It took a fix though didn't it. Was that fix around 30 years ago? Maybe. I don't remember covering it in school but that's been 20 years ago so maybe I forgot. About the combine prices. Like I said before, I would hope that a machine built by a company that is still around would have a better resale value than a machine built by a company that's been gone for 25 years. But, take a look at the Equipment Guide books from the 70's and it's clear that Gleaner combines had THE highest resale over any other make period. Couple that with them being lower cost to buy and it added up to real good value. Probably not you Gerald, but many Deere people just can't accept those facts. It's like a bitter pill or something and although I can show them the books they just can't fathom that something like a Gleaner was at one time thought of as a better value than the Deere. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 8:54pm
|
The article in the Jan/Feb 2008 two cylinder magazine is based on the JD production logs that the magazine has, based on COUNTING the tractors as logged. It does not depend on serial numbers alone. Gerald J. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 9:10pm
|
Lonn if your expecting JD to be honest you must believe in Santa Claus .......just kidding |
Posted By: Ryan Renko
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 9:12pm
| Check your facts KCgrain. The 7720 is closer to a M2 than a L2. So whats your point now again? Ryan |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 9:24pm
| You better check you facts a M2 competed with the 6620 combine it was a 6R machine a 7720 was an 8r machine and competed with the L2 . The facts on your side are the ones that are wrong, I sold Gleaners I know what was competing machines, I know what we sold against and I know what Allis Chlamers used as competitive models at the college of Knowledge. so now what your point??? |
Posted By: Jack(Ky)
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 10:43pm
| I read the book about the development of the "new generation" tractors. It was very interesting but it was comical at least once when they were having trans noise problems (and this was like later in the sixties) and they came up with the idea to use helical gears. They made it sound like they invented the helical gear and AC had been using them since the early fifties.JP |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 11:09pm
|
All those JD you mentioned KcGrain are later than the early 4020. The early 4020 like I have had a check valve AT the transmission pump and works like I described. The later tractors didn't. The check valve does fix the problem in the pre side console 4020. Like I said on my web page. The JD service bulletins I have say at least in the index that loss of hydraulics with the clutch pushed in the later tractors isn't from a bad check valve, because there isn't one but is from a high pressure leak which could be plumbing or any of the valves that have pressure on them all the time. My service bulletin collection is missing those issues that cover the later tractors. In my 4020 the remotes return TO the transmission oil filter that is at the pressure of the output of the transmission pump, not to the sump. And my loader returns there too. A single acting cylinder that has no load will only open, it won't close because it has that 250 psi or so pressure still applied. If the remote return went to the unpressureized sump that wouldn't be a bother. That way the reservoir up front only has to supply oil for single acting cylinders and the difference between the front and rear sides of any double acting cylinder so it can run a while with no transmission pump. Has to be that way because the capacity of the transmission pump is a fraction of the capacity of the front pump. I said NOTHING about Green Magazine, the article I reference is from Two Cylinder Magazine out of Grundy Center, IA. When checking shop manuals you have to go to the OLD 4020 manual SM-2039, not the TM for the side console tractor. The only things the hydraulics of the two share is oil, and the front pump, maybe 2250 psi closed center. Everything else, including the remotes is wildly different. The side console remote was used for decades after 1970. The shop manuals for the two vintages of 4020 are completely separate as are the parts catalogs. That's because the two tractors are too different to be covered in the same books. Some parts interchange, some don't. Some that fit don't work right. AC didn't get to helical gears until the very last of the WD and the WD45. When shifting sliding gears, I suspect helicals shift a lot tougher than straight cut gears and cost several times as much to buy or make. Though the noise of straight cut gears didn't seem to bother Massey-Harris and their model 44 or a late Cockshutt where the whine of the gears, even unloaded is louder than the engine exhaust. The 4020 SR (and PS) don't slide gears about, the SR uses cogged clutches of which some are syncrhonized and some not and the PS uses disk clutches with hydraulics to do the shifting. I've not memorized the PS portion of the shop manual, don't have one, don't plan on working on one. Nor do I want to work on my 4020 innards. Gerald J. |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2011 at 3:00am
| my dealer told me that the "g" combines had more claening capacity than a 7700 combine...i don't know, i never checked |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2011 at 6:36am
|
Gerald and Jack, Allis was using helical gear transmission by 1947 in the crawlers and by 1950 in the CA. Shameless, I don't know about the sieve size of a G compared to a 7700 but the G has the two stage air cleaning system like all Gleaners Allis ever built and that gives the G a distinct advantage over a 7700. No Deere walker machine was much of a capacity monster cause they all put grain over the walkers and are well known for doing just that. Another advantage was the standard equipment rock ejection door. Even my old mechanics teacher, who was a strong IH fan, said to my brainwashed fellow students that you'll probably never see a conventional Gleaner's cylinder beat up from stones. Some in the class were so brainwashed they just wouldn't accept that. Every Deere and IH in our area has stone damage even when equipped with a rock trap as rock traps do not catch every stone.
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Ryan Renko
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2011 at 6:47pm
| Great posts Shameless and Lonn!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: David (in Mi.)
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 12:32am
| I want to thank you both for the good reading. You both have made good points, i will not pick sides, but i was born and raised on AC all the way threw childhood, knew a lot about all there products and loved most. I am 62 years old now and farm 1300 acres with almost total JD equipment. At age 20 , i went to work at local JD dealer and spent 10 yrs. there , mostly as a mechanic, and know 4020 very well. I have 2 Jd 4020's as of today, one is a 65 (first yr.) and one is 72 (Last yr.) both is excellent condition, and just to let you know i also have my dad's orginal WD-45 Diesel completely restored to showroom condition with the orginal purchase agreement from the dealer with the date and price of sale. So i just wanted to Thank You both for the interest in the subjects and to let you know this will proably not be the last word about those 2 companys and there products. Dave( in Mi.) |