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Tbone95 
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 Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 6:45am |
 Coke wrote:
Lonn wrote:
BTW the reason you douse it with cold water is to freeze the metal in it's expanded state so you can just tap it off with a hammer. You do what is comfortable for you.
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But that's not how metal works, I mean I'm not a metallurgist or anything but I'm fairly sure it just contracts again when cooled. I do believe that the rapid cooling can change the metals structure tho' I beleve rapid cooling can change the hardness, maybe making it more brittle. These parts are cast iron, yes? |
Yes, this is an odd one.....kinda hate to wade into it. I've seen Lonn post this before, and I trust Lonn and have no doubt he's been trained this way, that it works, and that he's had multiple successes with it. Just not sure all the terminology and understanding is scientifically spot on..... In order for steel to change structure, it has to be cold worked to a certain degree ( I don't recall....seems like 15% runs in my mind, as in change in cross sectional area. Been a while). So like the final rolling at the mill can do this. Then it has to be heated up, VERY HOT, like WHITE HOT, and be cooled back to no color within a minute or 2. This changes the hardness and changes the structure. The change in grain structure causes the steel to "stretch" a very little bit and this change is "permanent". It can be undone by a full anneal. To do this in a controlled manner with a torch seems pretty difficult to me. And for cast iron? Whole different animal.....don't think it really works like the steel scenario I just described..... Did I mention I trust Lonn and believe his method works?   Interesting topic.
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Coke
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 7:25am |
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Well the reason to heat stuck metal is the different rates of expansion in the two pieces, causes the rusted bond to break. The reason to cool it is usually because when hot the metal is too soft to work, things like stuck nuts. But something this large, not sure if cooling is necessary?
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1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons
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Tbone95
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 7:48am |
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Yes, I understand you. When I say changes the hardness, I meant the cold hardness before and the cold hardness after is different.
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 8:23am |
Folks, The arm is probably cast steel, not cast iron. That's why you can get a fair weld on it. My guess in the factory the installed the arm with a press. Probably didn't need much pressure when all surfaces were new and machined. I would have called it a light press fit. All that is speculation since I wasn't there.:) Regards, Chris |
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Coke
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 9:48am |
Tbone95 wrote:
Yes, I understand you. When I say changes the hardness, I meant the cold hardness before and the cold hardness after is different. |
Yes, and that's another issue in of itself. Does the heating cause the part to be more susceptible to failure or less? Not knowing whether it's steel or iron, and also not knowing how hot we heat it (I'm asuming a light red glow) it would be hard to guess whether you make thing worse or better, it's at this point I wish my late Uncle, the blacksmith, was still around
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1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons
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Tbone95
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 9:58am |
Coke wrote:
Tbone95 wrote:
Yes, I understand you. When I say changes the hardness, I meant the cold hardness before and the cold hardness after is different. |
Yes, and that's another issue in of itself. Does the heating cause the part to be more susceptible to failure or less?
Not knowing whether it's steel or iron, and also not knowing how hot we heat it (I'm asuming a light red glow) it would be hard to guess whether you make thing worse or better, it's at this point I wish my late Uncle, the blacksmith, was still around
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Yep....lots to it. And heating it up and cooling it rapidly like pouring water on it versus heating it up and letting it cool slowly is very different. Since the latter is done when you put it back together, it should be relatively stress relieved and be ok. The blacksmiths like your uncle are extremely knowledgeable and get stuff done. It's just that......their terminology versus what is read in a metallurgy book don't necessarily sound the same, or "Jibe", but in the end both get results. That's why I was hesitant to wade into the fray, I don't want to tick someone off sounding like I disrespect an old school blacksmith, I surely have tons of respect for guys like that.
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Coke
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 6:00pm |
Now, I've seen welders (the people) heat up cast parts before welding, and then wrap them so they cool very, very slowly, so the weld holds. I'm hoping I don't have to heat up the new part, as the paint is nicely patina'd already. That said, still have to get the old one of, but this whole discussion reminded me, I could always take it to the local blacksmith, who kept my old mower going so long after I broke bits off it. I'm thinking I should probably rub the paint of the mating surface on the new one, yeah? Pardon the cat. 
Edited by Coke - 17 Oct 2018 at 6:00pm
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 6:49pm |
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Gee like the kitty in the picture !!! He looks purrfect !
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Michael V (NM)
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Posted: 17 Oct 2018 at 8:09pm |
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Gettin a "cat scan" there
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Tbone95
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 7:41am |
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My prof back in the day told us if you were going to weld on cast, dig a hole in the sand beforehand. Heat them up hot but slow with a rosebud, do your welding, then place it in the hole and bury it to slow the cooling down. Obviously that won't work for everything, but the concept is there.
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Lonn
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 8:57am |
Coke wrote:
Lonn wrote:
BTW the reason you douse it with cold water is to freeze the metal in it's expanded state so you can just tap it off with a hammer. You do what is comfortable for you.
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But that's not how metal works, I mean I'm not a metallurgist or anything but I'm fairly sure it just contracts again when cooled. |
I'm not a metallurgist either but it is how it works as far as I know. Here's one that some do but I wouldn't. Cut it off with a torch, slot the new one so it will slide on then weld it up after it is on. I've seen it done.
I bought a 190 that was ran with a loose arm. It destroyed the arm and spindle where the key sets. I just welded the arm directly to the spindle because I needed it now. Still running that way today.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 9:46am |
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My thinking is......Lonn's method has good tried, true, and proven results repeated many times. Just that there is some inaccuracies in the explanation of what happened and the lingo that goes with it.
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Lonn
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 11:48am |
It's like explaining as to why my wife married me, I can spout a lot of reasons but I really don't know why, just that she did. 
Anyhow, Coke, if you don't feel comfortable doing it the way I was taught, then by all means try something else as suggested on this site. Get a good quality puller and pull it off and then pound or press the new one on. Either way it's not that difficult.
Edited by Lonn - 18 Oct 2018 at 11:49am
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Coke
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 12:12pm |
Lonn wrote:
It's like explaining as to why my wife married me, I can spout a lot of reasons but I really don't know why, just that she did.
Anyhow, Coke, if you don't feel comfortable doing it the way I was taught, then by all means try something else as suggested on this site. Get a good quality puller and pull it off and then pound or press the new one on. Either way it's not that difficult.
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Yeah, I think women are a bigger mystery than tractors. No, I'm not disputing atall that your way works, just the reasoning
behind it, like Tbone said. Also because at that point I didn't have a
torch. But just hitting it wasn't working either. I tried with a propane torch, got nowhere, and now have a borrowed cutting torch (no rosebud tip unfortunately) and am so far still unsuccesful, perhaps I need to just hit it like a rocket. 
Edited by Coke - 18 Oct 2018 at 12:13pm
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 3:30pm |
Pretty sure you're gonna have to "polish up" more than 1 section of paint after this ordeal 
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allisbred
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 4:19pm |
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Coke, You are correct, fast cooling such as water quenching will most likely ruin the material structure properties.
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FREEDGUY
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 4:50pm |
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My first thought on the "red hot" metal doused with cold water was the reaction of a baking dish(glass) fresh out oven that had a pitcher of cold milk overturned on it; glass everywhere !!
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Coke
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 6:52pm |
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Coke
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 6:53pm |
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Would the front loader have enough power to yank it off?
There's hooks on the bucket, I could run a chain to.
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DanWi
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Posted: 18 Oct 2018 at 9:36pm |
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You could pick the front of the tractor up with the loader and it wouldn't come off. Besides that you have to lift it straight off or it is binding any way.
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Lonn
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Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 4:50am |
FREEDGUY wrote:
My first thought on the "red hot" metal doused with cold water was the reaction of a baking dish(glass) fresh out oven that had a pitcher of cold milk overturned on it; glass everywhere !! |
At the dealership I had worked at I'd done that on everything from D15 to 7060's and it always worked good. And they weren't the only dealership doing it that way. My own 7050 I did this to about 20 years ago. Still does my heavy tillage and zero problems.
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Coke
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Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 6:26pm |
Fought me every step of the way, we tried Lonn's way, we tried smacking it off hot, we ended up having to cut both ends off. I feel a little bit better about it breaking, my mate pointed out it had been welded there previously.  Was unable to get the new one on, even with heating it, before the rain came down. I think I'm gonna clean it up, and get it bored out enough that it fits on properly.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 8:58pm |
You might wanna try freezing the spindle shaft, and heating the new arm to 500ºF, in an oven. Do this when the wife is out...
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Coke
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Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 9:40pm |
I was thinking of just running a hone round the large hole in the arm, but worried about what it'll do to the key slot if it catches?
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HudCo
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Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 11:21pm |
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looks to me in the first picture that the axle and spinlde needs to be rebushed real badly
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JC-WI
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Posted: 21 Oct 2018 at 9:46pm |
Just got through reading this thread. When Lonn wrote about quenching with cold water couple years ago, The next day I was out baling and had a ball bearing failure on one of the rolls... Balls all gone and smoking... I grabbed my water bottle and squirted the race that was on the shaft right then and there... then drove up to the garage to work on pounding or cutting that race off... and low and behold that inner race of the previously sealed bearing slipped off like it was a size to big... I thought CRAP, the shafts worn out and I will have a sloppy fit bearing, I put the new bearing up on the shaft and had to tap it on... and was back to baling in less than a half hour, thanks to the information Lonn had said. How it works I don't really know but the fact was it did work.
Second thing Coke of Midwest, is, you did not take the outer axel assembly out and turn it upside down so you could give the arm down with a harder sharper blow when it was red hot or redhot chilled cold..
One of my axle assemblies snapped off at the bottom so it came out the top real easy and I put it in a press and I don't think I had over 5-6 ton on it before it started moving... and when I was putting the new shaft in, I had it in ice and the arm was laying on the hood of the tractor...90+ degree day. Measured the verticle tube, measured the shaft, put shims on the shaft and slipped it in, and blocked it up and then smeared some anti-seize on and drove the arm on, and put the snap ring on. Don't know if the antiseize helped or not, but it is still tight 15 years later.
3rd thing, check out HudCo's comment. replace them bushings now while it's apart if they are worn. Sure helped replacing them in the ones I did.
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Coke
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Posted: 22 Oct 2018 at 2:00pm |
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Well in good news, I got it together, I got it moved back to the shed.
I did it by taking the spindle and the arm to a machine shop, and having them fit it, so I could fit it with a few good taps of a mallet. Yes, I may live to regret this, but I needed it out the yard. I didn't even fit the tie-rod on all the way, just enough to get it moved.
It's all coated with anti-seize, so I can pull it apart and do the bushings, I don't see any bushings in mine, could I maybe not have bushings, it's a very early model, or are they disintegrated? The service manual shows two bushings and two thrust washers, with it fitted: bushing, bushing, then washer, washer, I have two washers on the end of the spindle.
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wfmurray
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Posted: 22 Oct 2018 at 5:40pm |
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I may not total correct on this but metal like that was called maleded ironn (molded iron).You can cut and weld like mild steel. Been around a long time .Uncle Henry used it on his model Ts and As.
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Lonn
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Posted: 22 Oct 2018 at 8:33pm |
Coke wrote:
Fought me every step of the way, we tried Lonn's way, we tried smacking it off hot, we ended up having to cut both ends off. |
takes a rose bud torch and it has got to be red hot.......the arm that is all around the spindle....not the spindle although that will get very hot too. Then poor a pail of water on it while red hot. but without a rose bud it won't work well. Sometime I'm gonna do a video on it to prove how easy it is.
Edited by Lonn - 22 Oct 2018 at 8:37pm
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