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Power director for pulling

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NEVER green View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 10:55pm



Purchased this 7580 PD from a puller while back finally took it apart, he claimed it was used one season on a thousand horse tractor. As you can see he took high side clutch and gutted the insides and continued the separator slots so they meet the low side slots. Stacked inside a total of 12 plates were used, I discovered the three very center clutch plates slipped and warped.
Question for Doc and others, too many plates so the piston couldn't travel far enough to fully compress them??? I figured remove three and shim up difference? My calculations are .404 separation per clutch and separator plate, does that sound correct?
I started making second PD from 7060,the most challenging part is finding a shop to weld the high and low hubs together, could machine new one, very spendy! Don't know if you can see in photo the smaller low side splines were removed and only engages high side. This new PD would have 7or 8 plates. Also could leave low splines on and remove gear on back of low shaft, maybe?
Another puller on this site is considering this set up also, so comments welcome.
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2017 at 7:09am
I'd say you are probably correct on not enough stroke on the piston for all those discs/plates and not enough squeeze pressure from just one clutch piston.  I like my two piston design much better than that thing. Sure looks like a time bomb to me the way he did that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2017 at 10:37pm
Doc and I had a discussion on this a while back,,, a 7580 pd with the low and high center together for either low or high which ever needed, using the low side clutch pac to start, build boost, then apply pressure to the high side to lock it up - the low side would have the resistance spring washers to cushion the start . Might add more lube flow as well. The stock clutch valve could be modified - or replaced altogether with another type of valve (s) for pressure application..if you wanted to get really cute add in s pluse width modulated valve...























































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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyinWI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 10:59am
Doc - Could you explain your two piston design? I am in need of something, would like like something that would last me a while. getting sick of splitting this thing. Haha

Thanks - Andy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 3:34pm
You have to decide which range you are going to use, Low or High. No more on-the-go shifting. Remove the countershaft gear to the range you aren't going to use anymore. Either replace that gear with a spacer or just cut off all the gear teeth to that gear and use the hub. Figure out how to weld (or bolt?) the two clutch hubs together, similar to what these pictures show, or maybe a different method??  The clutch hubs still are used and supply lube oil to the clutch discs. Remove the Belleville piston washers from the low range piston but still use the bolts and stools to seal it up. Do whatever it takes to the P.D. valve to supply pressurized oil to BOTH low and high clutches at the same time. Not sure what that will take, but that is the premise of my dual piston clutch. Both sides are used at the same time. The input shafts are used to keep everything straight and stable. All the power goes thru the clutch hubs. Using a late model 7580 clutch, you'd had 5 discs in low and 3 discs in high for a total of 8 discs to absorb the heat. Using the thick separator plates everywhere would also be a good idea, as they will take a lot more heat before warping. The wave springs are all that returns the pistons back into their bores....just like a Power Shift tranny does. Reason for removing the belleville washers is two-fold. #1. it sees to it both clutches try and apply at the same time ( near equal wave spring pressures) and it allows the low range piston to squeeze the clutch discs tighter because there's zero resistance from the belleville return springs. I haven't done a clutch like this as of yet, soooo whomever beats me to it is a crash test dummy. Good luck !!   Also, don't forget to consider replacing 2nd gear with 4th gear from a 7030/7050 which is a little faster than regular 7040-60-80 4th gear. Then, you'd have two 4th gears, slow and fast and then 5th.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 5:09pm

Does the countershaft have to be dropped in order to remove low speed hollow shaft??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 7:16am
Technically, yes. But, if you trim away some of the shifting dogs (like a 190-200) the shaft will then pull out when rotated to the sweet spot. Clean the area with diesel fuel and a magnet. You still want to leave the low range input shaft in place to support the main shaft nose of the transmission. So, I guess remove the input shaft, grind off the gear teeth so it can't touch the countershaft and shove it back in there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 7:45am

Thanks Dr., I don't understand the purpose of those specific dogs, they wont be needed once I remove the gear?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 10:40am
Nope.  Any 180-185-190-200 didn't have a 100% shift dog count on the input shaft..  You do what you want.....tear down the whole transmission or make a slight alteration to the part causing the disassembly problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2019 at 6:02pm

    Two seasons no issues ,   first place, 317 ft, improved stock .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2019 at 6:08pm

   Second place 343 ft, little slow with the throttle was expecting red flag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2019 at 8:33pm
Can't see the gearshift. 3rd or 4th ?? and no shifting of the Power Director, right ?? Runs real nice. How heavy?? 12,000 ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frnkeore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 1:33am
If it's any help, the hubs can be joined by furnace braising.

A braising compound can be selected that has a tensile as strong as the hub material.

The compound is in the form of a paste. You apply the past and align the hubs, bring the parts to the melting temp of the compound, in a furnace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 9:07am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:


Can't see the gearshift. 3rd or 4th ?? and no shifting of the Power Director, right ?? Runs real nice. How heavy?? 12,000 ??


5th gear, no shifting up or down, classes run from 11,000 to 12,500.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 9:10am
Originally posted by frnkeore frnkeore wrote:

If it's any help, the hubs can be joined by furnace braising.

A braising compound can be selected that has a tensile as strong as the hub material.

The compound is in the form of a paste. You apply the past and align the hubs, bring the parts to the melting temp of the compound, in a furnace.


Very interesting, can it be used in large gaps? Some of the gaps are nearly half an inch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 10:18am

3rd place finish, some showboat showed up from WI.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 11:12am
What was with the throttle hang on first vid? This running an A pump, and what size charger? Gotta be over 800 hp to hack road gear! Nice to see a strong running orange one!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 2:17pm

Good question Ed, pump guy thought seal was leaking on turbo but its only got ten runs on it ands its nice and tight and dry, sent in the pump. AMBC 100 running 540cc, 2.8 s400, I was told need over 800 hp to compete in this class.

Hopefully pump guy can increase to 630cc depending on my head, don't want to spend 4900 on new head and work to get to 630cc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 2:55pm
Those hi-lift M100's do require some extra work to get enough governor travel to get them to cut off completely. One of the many reasons I got away from building the hi-lifts. 
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frnkeore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by NEVER green NEVER green wrote:

Originally posted by frnkeore frnkeore wrote:

If it's any help, the hubs can be joined by furnace braising.

A braising compound can be selected that has a tensile as strong as the hub material.

The compound is in the form of a paste. You apply the past and align the hubs, bring the parts to the melting temp of the compound, in a furnace.


Very interesting, can it be used in large gaps? Some of the gaps are nearly half an inch.

After furnace braising, you can fill gaps with a high strength silver solder rod. The braising paste is also a silver solder.

Contact your welding supply to see what's available.


Edited by frnkeore - 07 Dec 2019 at 5:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 8:30pm
OK.....5th gear in what would be "LOW" button on the Power Director clutch ?? That thing runs really nice  !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:


OK.....5th gear in what would be "LOW" button on the Power Director clutch ?? That thing runs really niceĀ  !!


Nope high side, fast as she can go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2019 at 10:46pm
So, now we need 7045-50-60 final drives which are FASTER !!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2019 at 8:32am

   Really, didn't know that, actually own a 7060 parts tractor! Was considering making up custom 4th gears one tooth faster then 5th.   How much faster???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2019 at 8:54pm
3.5 % faster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 8:08am

Thanks Doc!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 6:10pm


   Question for all you hard core pullers.... rules allow for hitch to be 18 inches back from center of axles, I can only get 21 inches from center of axles. Am wondering how much this costs me??? The rear end casting under the pto is in the way.

   

Edited by NEVER green - 09 Dec 2019 at 6:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 6:27pm
There comes the matter of balance and weight placement, I got a 180 puller years ago that had one stuck out 25 inches from the center of rear axles, they said it worked best that way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 7:17am
There has been a handful of 7000/8000 series tractors that ran with the NTPA over the years and they were allowed to cut/grind/modify the rear end to get the drawbar to the legal shortness and max height. It does make a difference. When you spin out in the holes of the leader in the class.....you lose, because your drawbar is longer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 10:28am
Originally posted by DougG DougG wrote:

There comes the matter of balance and weight placement, I got a 180 puller years ago that had one stuck out 25 inches from the center of rear axles, they said it worked best that way


I know some guys who embrace that theory, the longer drawbar acts like a longer breaker bar so you front end comes up easier. But also have noticed sleds making the chain longer to stop the big tractors.
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