| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
LangdonStevenson 
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: Possible broken drive axle D grader
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 7:11am |
While running my D model grader last week cutting in a drainage ditch beside a private road I bogged it down with too deep a cut. Before I dropped the clutch though there was a dull thump from down low in the machine. I also stalled it at that moment and was subsequently distracted by a coincidentally broken starter cable. When I got it running again I discovered that the right hand tandems were not driving - but the left side still is.
[Edit] I checked the right hand chain box and both chains are intact, so the problem is definitely not chains.
Having had a look at the diagram for the rear axle assemblymy conclusion is that the right hand drive shaft must have broken.
I have found a replacement (new apparently) driveshaft with seals and bearings for $2,000 delivered. I think that is a reasonable investment to keep the machine operational as I have a lot of work to do with it and it's working well since the hydraulic rams were rebuilt.
Has anyone ever replaced a drive shaft in a D/DD grader? From the service manual it doesn't look like a difficult task and I can probably do it without even removing the rear axle assembly.
Any thoughts and experience welcomed.
Langdon
Edited by LangdonStevenson - 05 Dec 2023 at 4:00pm
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
Mikez
Orange Level Access
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Location: Usa
Points: 8391
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 9:11am |
|
I’m curious Do you have part number
Edited by Mikez - 05 Dec 2023 at 9:12am
|
|
PaulB
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Rocky Ridge Md
Points: 4741
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 11:20am |
|
Before you sink a bunch into an expensive part you may not need, have you checked to see if a chain broke in the lower case?
|
|
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81242
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 12:28pm |
|
chain ties the two wheels together.... If it broke, the DRIVE wheel would still be turning ??
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
Points: 41600
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 12:59pm |
|
The guess of what might be wrong can be costly ,
The exploration to find the problem is well worth the time to find the actual problem .
|
|
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 3:52pm |
Hi Paul and Steve,
I should have mentioned in my original post that I checked the chains and they are both fine, so the problem has to be (as far as I can see) between the drive sprocket in the right hand tandem/chain box and the bevel gear in the axle housing, which also drives the left side which still has power.
Edited by LangdonStevenson - 05 Dec 2023 at 4:07pm
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 3:59pm |
Hi Mike,
No I don't have a part number sorry. I bought the service manual, but not the parts manual. It would be easy enough to get though. Do you have a line on a driveshaft?
Edited by LangdonStevenson - 05 Dec 2023 at 4:06pm
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 4:05pm |
Hi Coke,
Yes I plan on pulling the right hand axle to confirm that it is in fact broken, but I didn't want to go ahead and do that until I knew that the probable part was available and affordable. Since it is, the next step is to do that investigation and confirm the failure. If I'm right, then I'll take the plunge and order the parts.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81242
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 4:14pm |
|
I think your on the right track Landon... Axle shaft is a good possibility.. ALso could have broke the hub or torn splines out of the hub... Good idea to look further at this time.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
DiyDave
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Gambrills, MD
Points: 51703
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 4:20pm |
As Steve said, check the splines, these graders have a bit of a history of spline stripping, on the output end of the transmission... 
|
|
Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 4:41pm |
|
Thank you Steve and Dave, that's good to know. When I pull the shaft I'll know. I'll be very disappointed if the splines on the hub are torn out. That will be a significantly bigger job to fix - if I can get the part.
|
|
Ian Beale
Orange Level
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Location: New South Wales
Points: 973
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 5:18pm |
Just a thought
We've found that AC 45 graders have a habit of breaking the welds that attach the chain sprockets to the axles of the wheels.
Any chance that could have happened to the sprocket that drives your chain?
|
|
Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
Points: 41600
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Dec 2023 at 11:26pm |
|
Bought my Adams 411 grader cheap as they said clutch was out . When working on it I found one spring was broken but noticed the nut holding the clutch housing hub had play in washer behind nut .
Found the splines to drive that clutch housing were worn and housing moved and when it did it released the clutch disc .. Weird setup as engine flywheel drove a shaft that went to clutch housing that acted like a flywheel / clutch unit but a separate unit mounted under cab area .
So checked splines and did some welding and grinding to restore worn splines somewhat . Original nut on that shaft replaced with a self locking nut , and no problems since . I did have to go to a spring place and have the spring made as was a different geometry than even they had ever seen (coil spring with tabs like what might be on a door hinge)
|
|
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 09 Dec 2023 at 6:21am |
|
Hi Ian, thanks for sharing that. I don't believe that's the problem in my case, but I'll be sure when I start to disassemble.
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 6:02am |
I finally got a chance to block the grader up today and investigate the right hand drive shaft. Had to pull the two right hand wheels off, drain the chain box oil, and pull off the side hatch, split the drive chains, then take the drive gears off. All of that went pretty easily thankfully. Even getting the spring clip that retains the outboard bearing out was easy enough.
As soon as the chains were off it was clear that the shaft was broken near the chain box end. When it came out (with a little help from a slide hammer) you could see that it had sheared off very cleanly right at the point where the drive shaft had been machined to create a shoulder for the outboard bearing to sit against. The shoulder had created a stress concentrator and it broke from a crack that had started working its way into the shaft from the shoulder.
I don’t have any photos currently (as it started pouring rain just as I got the shaft out). I’ll take some tomorrow and post them here.
New drive shaft is ordered along with a new outboard bearing and seal. I should have them by next week and hopefully will have the grader running again the following week!
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81242
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 8:56am |
|
Thanks for the update Langdon... that makes a lot of sense.. and not as bad to repair as it could have been !
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 1:28pm |
Hi Steve. Yes I got *very* lucky with this failure. It could have been far worse. If it was the shaft spline then I’d have had a lot more work pulling off the tandem cases, and axle housing. As it is, it should just be a case of sliding in the new shaft. Frankly, cleaning up the tandem cases and getting the chains back on is probably going to be more work!
I will say though that I’m disappointed with the shaft design. Not machining in stress concentrators was pretty much “design 101” when I was studying these things.
Oh, something else I noticed with I pulled the broken shaft: the castle nut that holds the double sprocket onto the end of the drive shaft was missing its locking wire! Seems the last person to work on this machine just didn’t give a toss. I’m going to have to give it all a good look over at some stage and find what else has been ignored.
Edited by LangdonStevenson - 03 Jan 2024 at 1:31pm
|
|
Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
Points: 41600
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 2:13pm |
|
I had bought a couple used axles for my HD4 from small repair shop - had 2 failures on those axles - then when I asked the guy about them , he said he had a guy repair them , weld up worn area and turn down to size to fit old seal and bearing .
Seems he fixed them to the point that they became brittle at the end next to mounting flange for sprocket , where they ended up breaking each time .
Found a axle with just worn seal area , bought a speedy sleeve and proper seal to run with it and no more problems . Sometimes one persons idea of a fix - creates another problem if not done right .
Could be reason yours broke , a bad repair the last time with buildup to fix a problem !
|
|
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Jan 2024 at 3:18am |
Hi Coke. That would have been disappointing for you. Yes you really need to understand your metallurgy if you are going to do those sorts of repairs, otherwise you just create a new problem down the track.
My driveshaft doesn’t look like it was repaired though, as I mentioned above I think it’s just a design flaw. The shoulder for locating the bearing creates a stress concentrator and it just snapped clean as at that point.
I’ll post some photos.
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Jan 2024 at 4:24am |
So when I pulled the drive shaft out, this is what I found!
On the left of the image is the outboard end of the shaft with the bearing still in position. You can see that it’s a very clean break thankfully.
On the right in my hand is the inboard end of the shaft that fits into the gear box bevel gear. The break occurred right on the shoulder that locates the bearing. I’m supposing that the very sharp corner created a stress concentrator that lead to a little crack forming.
The last time I ran the machine I was improving an old V ditch and I got the left side chain box hung up the berm of the ditch and the wheels lost contact with the ground, so the all torque of the motor was going through just one shaft - which had this fatal flaw. And then it broke.
Anyway, I should have the new shaft next week and assuming the inner bearing is ok I can put it back together. Frankly, cleaning out the years of gunge in the chain boxes is going to be a bigger, nastier job than replacing the drive shaft. I’m seriously considering drilling and tapping a new drain hole in the chain boxes as the one that is in it is about 10mm above the bottom of the box, which isn’t very helpful.
|
|
Codger
Orange Level
Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Utopia
Points: 2041
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 6:15am |
Seen a lot of axles twisted and sheared much as you have experienced in heavy trucks. Mostly from harsh clutch engagement or sudden traction to a slipping wheel such as a hard surface while spinning in gravel. Bouncing is very hard on these things while power is applied also. Does that roller bearing abut against a shoulder on the shaft opposite the break? I too am trying to reason why the bevel on the shaft where it failed unless a circlip of some fashion was to go into a machined groove to retain the bearing? Definitely a stress riser and weak point. From your photo I cannot tell if the shaft in your hand is the long part with the splines, or the shorter broken part outboard?
Edited by Codger - 05 Jan 2024 at 6:19am
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 6:28am |
Hi Codger,
Yes I figure that the weight coming off the left hand wheels (even though it wasn't exactly sudden) probably just overloaded the right hand drive shaft. Also my grader (which originally had a petrol motor) has been engine swapped and now has a Cummins diesel which probably makes significantly more torque than the original petrol motor, so the shafts may just be a bit under spec'ed for that motor.
Yes the bearing sits against the shoulder - I assume that the shoulder is machined there to prevent the bearing migrating inward (the break occurred on the inboard/gearbox side of the bearing) there is a spring clip that I had to remove on the outboard side of the bearing to retain it in that direction.
Yes the part in my hand is the long section with the splined end that slides into the bevel gear in the gearbox.
Edited by LangdonStevenson - 05 Jan 2024 at 6:34am
|
|
Codger
Orange Level
Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Utopia
Points: 2041
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 6:51am |
Thanks for the clarification. Your explanation is how I seen it but have been wrong in the past. Yes, that Cummins engine will have significantly higher torque output than the former engine. Glad you are able to source parts. Definitely worthy of a repair as those machines are handy to keep around.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 6:59am |
Coger - yes, definitely worth clarifying. In the future I'm going to be a bit more careful about not pushing it too hard - it is after all only little!
Yes I am really lucky that there was a brand new part available on the shelf. And I agree about these small machines. I can do work with it that I couldn't do with a bigger machine and it's cheaper to get it trucked from one site to the next because it's so small.
I think that the owner of the farm I'm working on at the moment would buy it off me just to maintain his roads if I offered.
|
|
Codger
Orange Level
Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Utopia
Points: 2041
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 7:55am |
|
I understand that for certain. Seemingly these older motor graders can be purchased reasonable and if a guy can work on them himself, do quite well. I've never been around them myself nor really operated one where it counts, but an experienced operator can make some nice work on short order; especially ditching and sloping.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
Points: 41600
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 1:26pm |
|
I have a full size grader setting out back Adams 411 - vintage of around 1938/40 or so and with a IN UD-4 4 cylinder gas / diesel power .
All mechanical blade system and steering - something i have not used in 20 years - now if someone needs a grader ????
|
|
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 4:05pm |
Codger - yes they are still very productive machines. Not as comfortable, powerful, and fast as modern machines, but they will get the job done if you let them. Take small bites, repeat. There is literally no other machine that will do the same job.
As for price - they are a lot more expensive (still) here in Australia, even for a very tired old junker like my D Model than they are in the US. Mine cost $14,000, but it has paid for itself in a couple of projects. If I get even a couple of years out of it without too many issues then it will have been very profitable to own.
The key thing here though is that the machine doesn't do a lot of hours - but having it lets me win jobs that I wouldn't otherwise get that include a *lot* of hours doing other work. The project I'm working on currently will only require a day of grader work probably, but I'll rack up 100+ hours of excavating gravel/clay on site to use on the road that the grader will finish. Without that machine I wouldn't have gotten the job at all, so it's been an excellent investment.
|
|
Codger
Orange Level
Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Utopia
Points: 2041
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 5:13pm |
That is the same way with my 11-B dozer. I know enough people needing work from a medium sized machine it will pay for itself in just a couple of small jobs. Running near perfect with no mechanical problems I'm aware of it a large bonus of course to start out with. Like you, a medium sized machine is much easier to move than something larger. Though not as productive on a large job, (not my focus) several small bites will get the job done. With no debt or encumbrances on a machine, you can charge less and still operate profitable and productive which on the backside will get you more work. I've only done a couple of small jobs for family for some very poor wages, but I've certainly learned lots as there is no better training than time in the saddle. These basically low paying jobs have garnered other work in the same area for others whom had they not seen me would not have materialized. Nothing like completing one job to throw tires down to cross the street to start the next. Now I just need warm weather..... The only grader I was ever around was an older Caterpillar 12. Guy that owned it used this to maintain his "Standard Bred" horse training track. I'd have to get it going a couple of times per year after he'd starve it out on fuel but somehow never caught on to the simple fix for that..... 
Edited by Codger - 05 Jan 2024 at 5:14pm
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
LangdonStevenson
Bronze Level
Joined: 03 Jun 2023
Location: Australia
Points: 73
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 1:13am |
Hi Codger - that's a pretty cool dozer. I'm working on rescuing an old D6 8U that's a similar size. I have a lot of work that i could do with a machine like yours. Yeah the transport cost can be a real killer, especially here in Australia where heavy trailers cost a *lot* to register ($14,000 per year for a two axle low loader).
Yes - the same thing has happened to me multiple times. I get onto a job then have a neighbour come over and ask if I can do something for them! Love that photo of you walking the dozer over the road.
Ha, yes keep that fuel topped up - especially in older machines so you don't pull the crud in the bottom of the tank through!
|
|
TramwayGuy
Orange Level Access
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Location: Northern NY
Points: 11445
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 8:54am |
 LangdonStevenson wrote:
So when I pulled the drive shaft out, this is what I found!
On the left of the image is the outboard end of the shaft with the bearing still in position. You can see that it’s a very clean break thankfully.
On the right in my hand is the inboard end of the shaft that fits into the gear box bevel gear. The break occurred right on the shoulder that locates the bearing. I’m supposing that the very sharp corner created a stress concentrator that lead to a little crack forming.
The last time I ran the machine I was improving an old V ditch and I got the left side chain box hung up the berm of the ditch and the wheels lost contact with the ground, so the all torque of the motor was going through just one shaft - which had this fatal flaw. And then it broke.
Anyway, I should have the new shaft next week and assuming the inner bearing is ok I can put it back together. Frankly, cleaning out the years of gunge in the chain boxes is going to be a bigger, nastier job than replacing the drive shaft. I’m seriously considering drilling and tapping a new drain hole in the chain boxes as the one that is in it is about 10mm above the bottom of the box, which isn’t very helpful.
|
Check the new shaft to make sure there is a radius where the shoulder is. If not, it would pay you to have one machined in it. Stress risers occur without one.
|
|
