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Just purchased a HD4.

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    Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 4:00pm
Hi everyone, I just purchased a HD4 crawler, believe to be a 71 or 72. 
  I need to do alot of work to the track, the right side came off yesterday. I got it on today but found alot of looseness which I will have to address. I think the PO had the track too tight which caused alot of binding.
 One odd thing is I can't find any grease fittings for the track rollers, the manual I have with it says there's button head fittings on the pins, but nothing is there. I didn't think these early models would of came with sealed rollers, or could someone of modified these?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 4:37pm
Rails have no lube, Rollers under MAY have had when new, replacements not so much.  Rails for these are unobtainable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2022 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

Rails have no lube, Rollers under MAY have had when new, replacements not so much.  Rails for these are unobtainable.

 Yes, the rail pins wouldn't. I think the rails look pretty good, there seems to be alot of material remaining.
 The tensioner and front shims for the idler pulley has a few loose and missing bolts.
 Good to know about the roller pins, thanks for the information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 12:59pm
AC used sealed only grease every 1000 rollers rollers back as far as the 1950's. So I would not have expected them to do any less on your little guy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2022 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Ray54 Ray54 wrote:

AC used sealed only grease every 1000 rollers rollers back as far as the 1950's. So I would not have expected them to do any less on your little guy.

 That's good to know.
 But the only reason I ask is the Operation manual and shop manual both say they are greaseable and need to be done every 100 hours?
 So I'm assuming if they are sealed they need to be removed then dismantled every 1000 hours?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2022 at 7:18pm
Back in the 60 and 70 a white grease was what was used on the AC rollers. Pull the plug shove nozzle in, which put new grease in the back. You pumped until new clean grease was coming out around the pipe nozzle, put the plug in and you had it grease for the year.


When I ran out of the last bucket of the white in the 90;s just used what ever roller grease I had for Cat 100 hour rollers.

Well if the manual says a 100 hours, grease is cheap compared to parts, and labor to change parts.  On Cat 100 hour rollers you have be careful if you use a normal grease gun and not a low pressure volume bucket pump made to grease track roller. The grease gun puts out a lot more pressure and you can blow the rear seal out and not know it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2022 at 5:13am
Originally posted by Ray54 Ray54 wrote:

Back in the 60 and 70 a white grease was what was used on the AC rollers. Pull the plug shove nozzle in, which put new grease in the back. You pumped until new clean grease was coming out around the pipe nozzle, put the plug in and you had it grease for the year.


When I ran out of the last bucket of the white in the 90;s just used what ever roller grease I had for Cat 100 hour rollers.

Well if the manual says a 100 hours, grease is cheap compared to parts, and labor to change parts.  On Cat 100 hour rollers you have be careful if you use a normal grease gun and not a low pressure volume bucket pump made to grease track roller. The grease gun puts out a lot more pressure and you can blow the rear seal out and not know it.

 I just sold a JD40 which I used cornhead grease (90 wt and grease mixture) on the rollers, and it was the same way, you had to be careful not to pump the rollers with too much pressure or the seals would give out.
 I would use this grease on the AC rollers because the manual says to use 90 wt, but there is no way to grease them that I can find. The manual says there should be button head grease fittings but there is nothing there?
 So how do you service sealed rollers? If they aren't supposed to be serviced, can they be taken apart to be cleaned and greased? I dought I'd be able to find replacements for this HD4.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2022 at 2:36pm
I have had some Cat sealed for life rollers. The first one I saw a leak on lasted only a day or two. So the next one I made a grease fitting and pumped it full. Found a plug that screwed in and drilled it for a fitting. It has lasted at least a 1000 hours. I checked it several times and had a lot of grease and was not leaking so you could see it. Still good I hope but tractor is rusting away awaiting other work I may never get to. For a time every time something happened to one old D6 another was calling my name to put a offer on it out there.I lost track but pieces of 8 I think. The Cat ones look like they are filled with ATF or something equally thin. So I would fill any of them with cornhead grease. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2022 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by Ray54 Ray54 wrote:

I have had some Cat sealed for life rollers. The first one I saw a leak on lasted only a day or two. So the next one I made a grease fitting and pumped it full. Found a plug that screwed in and drilled it for a fitting. It has lasted at least a 1000 hours. I checked it several times and had a lot of grease and was not leaking so you could see it. Still good I hope but tractor is rusting away awaiting other work I may never get to. For a time every time something happened to one old D6 another was calling my name to put a offer on it out there.I lost track but pieces of 8 I think. The Cat ones look like they are filled with ATF or something equally thin. So I would fill any of them with cornhead grease. 

 Thank you for all the info.
 After doing some adjustments to the brakes and clutches, I was able to find out someone just put a new steering clutch and brake band on the right side. But I'm going to have to put a new steering clutch and brake band on the left side, I'm hoping it will work for the summer. Surprising they only replaced one side, if they had the whole thing apart?
 I also found out the track adjusters are all the way out, they are only grabbing on the lock plate, probably why I threw a track, looking on the brite side I was able to get all the bolts loosened with nothing breaking. So looking things over I decided I'm going to remove a track link on each side, for what I'm going to use this dozer for, I think that would be the best option.
 Does anyone know where I could get a couple master pins for this? The links are Berco MH228 if that helps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2022 at 6:22pm
Removing a link will place roller to sprocket contact point in wrong place which will strain the machine -especially the rear outboard sprocket bearings - 
 After rebuilding both rear cases with new bearing holding machined parts welded into cases and at a $$$ cost it's not something i would do . 
 Find out if track can be turned on pins and bushings before going the extreme you mention 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2022 at 7:02pm
my h has one roller on each side that has the buttonhole, i don't have that fitting to grease them. the others have grease zerts, probably been replaced at some time or another.  the best advice i can give you is to make sure your final drives have oil in them.  hopefully you won't but some parts are very hard to find and expensive for sure.  the track is suppose to have 1 1/2 inch slop in it but one of the biggest reasons those tracks try to come off is the front idler. keep it full of grease will help. if those pins wear it causes the idler to wobble some. ive had mine for over 10 years. im in no hurry so it serves me well.  mine is a 2200 gas. yours is a 2200 diesel.    tae care of it, fix it right when needed and enjoy it, 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2022 at 5:27am
Originally posted by Coke-in-MN Coke-in-MN wrote:

Removing a link will place roller to sprocket contact point in wrong place which will strain the machine -especially the rear outboard sprocket bearings - 
 After rebuilding both rear cases with new bearing holding machined parts welded into cases and at a $$$ cost it's not something i would do . 
 Find out if track can be turned on pins and bushings before going the extreme you mention 


 For the life of me I can't see how removing a track link can change the contact points on the sprocket, not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't see how? I understand the wear has changed things, but that has already been done and I look at it as the sprocket and links have wore together. Like removing a link from a motorcycle chain, it shortens it, but doesn't change its geometry? I know that's is over simplifying it.
 I'll look into flipping the bushings and pins, but I'm not sure that would be enough to remove enough slop for the tensioners to thread into the yokes properly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2022 at 5:38am
Originally posted by pinball pinball wrote:

my h has one roller on each side that has the buttonhole, i don't have that fitting to grease them. the others have grease zerts, probably been replaced at some time or another.  the best advice i can give you is to make sure your final drives have oil in them.  hopefully you won't but some parts are very hard to find and expensive for sure.  the track is suppose to have 1 1/2 inch slop in it but one of the biggest reasons those tracks try to come off is the front idler. keep it full of grease will help. if those pins wear it causes the idler to wobble some. ive had mine for over 10 years. im in no hurry so it serves me well.  mine is a 2200 gas. yours is a 2200 diesel.    tae care of it, fix it right when needed and enjoy it, 

 I checked the final drive oil and it looks new, so someone must of just changed it. I hope that is a good thing, and some serious issues didn't caused it to be pulled apart? But it all seems fine. I'm a little concerned about the torque converter, something is slipping but it may of just been the steering clutches not adjusted correctly. What RPM do you run your machine to get a good forward power?
 When I adjust the tracks to the proper spec of 1 1/2" to 3" following the maintenance manual I received, the track tensioner is completely out of the yoke and only threaded into the lock plate. Which causes the yoke and idler wheel to have alot of slop up and down and side to side. Someone even removed the front bolts on the spacers for the idler wheel so it could be adjusted farther forward. I'm wondering if even these tracks and links are not original AC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2022 at 8:04am
Before you did anything I'd ensure you have at least eight inches of adjustment in your front idler. Six inches is your track pitch and if you remove a link and can only bring that idler back say five inches, you are not going to be able to remount the track without a lot of additional work. If you can only bring the idler back seven inches, it's going to be a stretch whether you will get the track remounted or not without another machine or hydraulics to assist you. On top of all that keeping proper track tension will be a challenge at best. Too tight and everything will be very short lived.

I'd start off with measuring your track pitch and undercarriage evaluation to know where you are at the start. Here is a blurb from an HD4 service manual on the track pitch:



This also breaks track measuring down a bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCGxq4ivn_s

I've spent a lot of hours welding up chains, sprockets, idlers, etc. to allow remachining of the same to extend the service life of machines when parts are NLA as you will experience with most AC construction equipment. 

I also remember those machines on the grounds at the Springfield plant when they were new. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2022 at 8:06am
With 6 different tracked vehicles over last 40 years and 2 now still used - 
With 15 or more Motorcycles with chain drive primary and final drives 
 The idea the chain pitch changes as chain stretches from wear is well known . 
You do not measure wear between pin to pin of 2 links but over 4 or more 
 The rollers or bushing has to align with sprocket tooth to index - inside wear is one part you can't see, outside wear at sprocket contact is easy to see and feel .
 If you have ever seen the inside of a crawler chain of the metal to metal wear with egg shaped inner hole in bushing and one side of the pin worn in over 1/4" it's easy to see how  alignment becomes a issue . 
  A motorcycle chain is something I replace at about 10,000 miles but lube several times during that period , in fact I keep a couple chains s I can remove and clean one chain while riding with another being cleaned and re-lubed as well as carrying a small bottle of chain lube on bike also .
 My H4 D was owned for over 10 years with one rebuild of tracks (turning) . My HD5G I have ran over 40 years and only ONCE did I shorten track one link - to get it moved from jobsite onto trailer to get it to the shop to replace the tracks .
 Removing that 1 link changes full geometry of track to sprocket wear pattern - in the short time it works but for machine life it's a real problem .
 If you ever noticed on a motorcycle the hooked shape pf a sprocket tooth it's from chain wear - and it's the same on a crawler  .  with an elongated chain, the rear sprockets will quickly get worn so the chain skipping  will occur with a new chain – due to worn rear sprockets. Rear sprocket wear (except an extreme one) is impossible to determine by looking. Even a fraction of a millimetre wear is enough to cause skipping of a new chain. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2022 at 8:19am
[/QUOTE]
For the life of me I can't see how removing a track link can change the contact points on the sprocket, not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't see how? I understand the wear has changed things, but that has already been done and I look at it as the sprocket and links have wore together. Like removing a link from a motorcycle chain, it shortens it, but doesn't change its geometry? I know that's is over simplifying it.
 I'll look into flipping the bushings and pins, but I'm not sure that would be enough to remove enough slop for the tensioners to thread into the yokes properly.
[/QUOTE]

Well, yes and no.
Removing a link allows you to take all of the slack out of the chain; the chain has already 'stretched' due to wear, and if you pull it tight like a fiddle string then each link is now slightly longer, thus preventing the bushings from settling down into the sprocket.

The contact point is now higher up on the sprocket tooth and above the previous wear area. Since the same amount of force is now concentrated in a smaller area, this area will wear more rapidly than before, hastening its demise.

If the pins and bushings have never been turned, it will indeed help to have this done because the bushing area would then fill the sprocket more fully, plus the pin and bushing contact area is at a different spot inside. The chain will appear to be shorter.

If the pins and bushings have already been turned, then your options are now:

A) Run it as-is and hope the track stays on
B) Find a better set of tracks (good luck with that!)
C) Park it and use it for a yard ornament
D) Scrap the machine
E) Remove a link and get what little life remains out of your machine

If you do remove a link, run the tracks as loose as you can get away with




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2022 at 10:17am
Thanks for the replies and information everyone, all very helpful!
I was able to get the fluids changed and everything adjusted, put the batteries back in and drove it a little to see how it runs. Everything seems to run good now except the track issues.
I checked out the bushings and they have already been rotated once. The tracks definitely can't be run the way they are now, just because with the threaded adjuster not in the yoke the tracks won't stay on very long with everything being loose, and I'm sure other things will break.
So the dilemma of letting it sit until I can possibly find replacement parts, or remove a link. I'll have to do more research and see what replacement parts I can find, if any.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2022 at 3:52pm
 Just to show what I'm dealing with, I turned the tensioner into the yoke about 1" to the end. At this point I don't think I have any choice but removing a link if I want to use the Dozer.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2022 at 4:24pm
I think removing a link, or maybe lengthen the adjuster rod a couple inches is a good SHORT TERM SOLUTION for a TEST. ..( im not sure there is enought LENGTH to remove 1 link and still FIT).... You just got the tractor, so you may want to RUN IT a little before you get in deeper..

I have heard of some that use "OTHER CHAINS" not built for the HD 3-4.. You need to change the sprockets to match the NEW CHAIN PITCH, and make sure the top rollers can fit inside the rails, and the bottom rollers fit outside... Some modifications may be needed.......... i thought the CASE 450  was "close"... but you need to adapt the sprockets to the Allis machine.





Edited by steve(ill) - 03 May 2022 at 5:50pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2022 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

some more data.......



 Thanks Steve, great information!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gemdozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2022 at 7:18pm
You should turned the rod adjuster on the other side and maybe  the tread in yoke are no more good and if the adjuster rod tread are in good condition  you need to turning the nut until the track are oké and dont forget to lock the nut with the 2 bolts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2022 at 5:33am
This is a pic of the left side I have adjusted to the factory 1 1/2" of sag. The tensioner rod is adjusted completely out of the yoke and only grabbing on the lock plate. Notice the front of the slide is completely forward, even the front bolts were removed on the shims to allow it to move further forward. So even if I shimmed the tensioner rod there is only about 1/4" the idler wheel could go further forward, but then the issue of the tensioner rod allowing the yoke to move around would still be a problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gemdozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2022 at 6:14am
The rode adjustement right side is adjusted correct and we can see the tread on rod but the left sde we can't se any traid he is complet desajusted we should see the tread on rod .
                                                  HECTOR
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Is the parts wear pretty even side to side on the undercarriage, or is the right worse than the left? From your first photo it looks as you may have a skipping problem with the chain and sprocket wear once the track is tightened up. I'm not certain you will be able to fit the track with a link removed as Steve pointed out also. Thinking I would fabricate another adjusting rod of additional length to tighten them up and prove the tractor worthy of further investment?

As a pushing dozer, worn out street pads will do you no favors and it looks like the track pad capscrews are just about the same height as the pads from wear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2022 at 8:30am
Originally posted by Codger Codger wrote:

Is the parts wear pretty even side to side on the undercarriage, or is the right worse than the left? From your first photo it looks as you may have a skipping problem with the chain and sprocket wear once the track is tightened up. I'm not certain you will be able to fit the track with a link removed as Steve pointed out also. Thinking I would fabricate another adjusting rod of additional length to tighten them up and prove the tractor worthy of further investment?

As a pushing dozer, worn out street pads will do you no favors and it looks like the track pad capscrews are just about the same height as the pads from wear.


Yes, the wear is even on each side.
The little bit I drove it, the sprocket didn't skip.
And yes, even the capscrews are worn. The problem with making an extended tensioner,is there is no more forward adjustment, it's maxed out now.
So really, the cheapest alternative right now is remove a link. There's plenty of slop right now that removing a link should be no problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2022 at 8:54am
It may work Vetter.... but each link is 7-8 inches between the pins ?  That seems like a lot to make up..... But you dont know till you try........

You have one side stretched out to the proper adjustment... When you relax that side, does the front idler move back ( or can it move back ) 7-8 inches as needed ?? ...... or maybe you only need 4 inches as you gain length on the TOP chain and the BOTTOM chain going around the  idler.....


Edited by steve(ill) - 04 May 2022 at 8:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2022 at 9:05am
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

It may work Vetter.... but each link is 7-8 inches between the pins ?  That seems like a lot to make up..... But you dont know till you try........

You have one side stretched out to the proper adjustment... When you relax that side, does the front idler move back ( or can it move back ) 7-8 inches as needed ?? ...... or maybe you only need 4 inches as you gain length on the TOP chain and the BOTTOM chain going around the  idler.....



Yes, when I take tension off the yoke by threading the tensioner all the way into the yoke, the idler moves back 6" no problem. I'm hoping that is enough, since these links are 6" pin to pin.
I'm working on getting the pads off now, not bad just going slow because the bolts are worn. Atleast there isn't much corrosion seizing everything together with this machine. Trying to look at the bright side!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2022 at 1:52pm
Your left side track is facing the wrong way - and also it looks like sprocket teeth are SHARP and worn beyond limit .
 Track pads are loader pads not dozer - 
Kind of a point where it might be a time to find another owner rather than chase good money into something - One reason my H4 got traded off - became anothers problem and not mine 
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Joined: 28 Apr 2022
Location: Michigan
Points: 20
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vetter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2022 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Coke-in-MN Coke-in-MN wrote:

Your left side track is facing the wrong way - and also it looks like sprocket teeth are SHARP and worn beyond limit .
 Track pads are loader pads not dozer - 
Kind of a point where it might be a time to find another owner rather than chase good money into something - One reason my H4 got traded off - became anothers problem and not mine 

 Thanks about the track info, I didn't even notice that. I did know about the loader tracks, I assumed that was original because it was setup for a backhoe too? My initial intent was to weld on some grousers eventually, but with all the wear that isn't going to happen.
 I just bought this thing, looking back at things when I bought it, that's exactly what they did I think.
 I couldn't consciously sell this to someone knowing the issues, and if I was upfront with them I certainly could never get close to my money back.
 This is my mistake at this point, so I'm committed to get it running as it should. I've done dumber things in the past, but not willing to give up just yet.
 Anyone know a set of tracks and sprockets for sale?LOLLOLLOL
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