I need to do alot of work to the track, the right side came off yesterday. I got it on today but found alot of looseness which I will have to address. I think the PO had the track too tight which caused alot of binding.

 One odd thing is I can't find any grease fittings for the track rollers, the manual I have with it says there's button head fittings on the pins, but nothing is there. I didn't think these early models would of came with sealed rollers, or could someone of modified these?

 Yes, the rail pins wouldn't. I think the rails look pretty good, there seems to be alot of material remaining.

 The tensioner and front shims for the idler pulley has a few loose and missing bolts.

 Good to know about the roller pins, thanks for the information.

 That's good to know.

 But the only reason I ask is the Operation manual and shop manual both say they are greaseable and need to be done every 100 hours?

 So I'm assuming if they are sealed they need to be removed then dismantled every 1000 hours?

When I ran out of the last bucket of the white in the 90;s just used what ever roller grease I had for Cat 100 hour rollers.

Well if the manual says a 100 hours, grease is cheap compared to parts, and labor to change parts.  On Cat 100 hour rollers you have be careful if you use a normal grease gun and not a low pressure volume bucket pump made to grease track roller. The grease gun puts out a lot more pressure and you can blow the rear seal out and not know it.

 I just sold a JD40 which I used cornhead grease (90 wt and grease mixture) on the rollers, and it was the same way, you had to be careful not to pump the rollers with too much pressure or the seals would give out.

 I would use this grease on the AC rollers because the manual says to use 90 wt, but there is no way to grease them that I can find. The manual says there should be button head grease fittings but there is nothing there?

 So how do you service sealed rollers? If they aren't supposed to be serviced, can they be taken apart to be cleaned and greased? I dought I'd be able to find replacements for this HD4.

 Thank you for all the info.

 After doing some adjustments to the brakes and clutches, I was able to find out someone just put a new steering clutch and brake band on the right side. But I'm going to have to put a new steering clutch and brake band on the left side, I'm hoping it will work for the summer. Surprising they only replaced one side, if they had the whole thing apart?

 I also found out the track adjusters are all the way out, they are only grabbing on the lock plate, probably why I threw a track, looking on the brite side I was able to get all the bolts loosened with nothing breaking. So looking things over I decided I'm going to remove a track link on each side, for what I'm going to use this dozer for, I think that would be the best option.

 Does anyone know where I could get a couple master pins for this? The links are Berco MH228 if that helps.

 For the life of me I can't see how removing a track link can change the contact points on the sprocket, not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't see how? I understand the wear has changed things, but that has already been done and I look at it as the sprocket and links have wore together. Like removing a link from a motorcycle chain, it shortens it, but doesn't change its geometry? I know that's is over simplifying it.

 I'll look into flipping the bushings and pins, but I'm not sure that would be enough to remove enough slop for the tensioners to thread into the yokes properly.

 I checked the final drive oil and it looks new, so someone must of just changed it. I hope that is a good thing, and some serious issues didn't caused it to be pulled apart? But it all seems fine. I'm a little concerned about the torque converter, something is slipping but it may of just been the steering clutches not adjusted correctly. What RPM do you run your machine to get a good forward power?

 When I adjust the tracks to the proper spec of 1 1/2" to 3" following the maintenance manual I received, the track tensioner is completely out of the yoke and only threaded into the lock plate. Which causes the yoke and idler wheel to have alot of slop up and down and side to side. Someone even removed the front bolts on the spacers for the idler wheel so it could be adjusted farther forward. I'm wondering if even these tracks and links are not original AC.

I'd start off with measuring your track pitch and undercarriage evaluation to know where you are at the start. Here is a blurb from an HD4 service manual on the track pitch:

This also breaks track measuring down a bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCGxq4ivn_s

I've spent a lot of hours welding up chains, sprockets, idlers, etc. to allow remachining of the same to extend the service life of machines when parts are NLA as you will experience with most AC construction equipment. 

I also remember those machines on the grounds at the Springfield plant when they were new. 

For the life of me I can't see how removing a track link can change the contact points on the sprocket, not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't see how? I understand the wear has changed things, but that has already been done and I look at it as the sprocket and links have wore together. Like removing a link from a motorcycle chain, it shortens it, but doesn't change its geometry? I know that's is over simplifying it.

 I'll look into flipping the bushings and pins, but I'm not sure that would be enough to remove enough slop for the tensioners to thread into the yokes properly.

 Just to show what I'm dealing with, I turned the tensioner into the yoke about 1" to the end. At this point I don't think I have any choice but removing a link if I want to use the Dozer.

I have heard of some that use "OTHER CHAINS" not built for the HD 3-4.. You need to change the sprockets to match the NEW CHAIN PITCH, and make sure the top rollers can fit inside the rails, and the bottom rollers fit outside... Some modifications may be needed.......... i thought the CASE 450  was "close"... but you need to adapt the sprockets to the Allis machine.

https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/hd4-tracks_topic143798.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/hd4-tracks_topic143798.html

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=crawlers&th=107568" rel="nofollow - https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=crawlers&th=107568

 Thanks Steve, great information!

                                                  HECTOR

As a pushing dozer, worn out street pads will do you no favors and it looks like the track pad capscrews are just about the same height as the pads from wear.

You have one side stretched out to the proper adjustment... When you relax that side, does the front idler move back ( or can it move back ) 7-8 inches as needed ?? ...... or maybe you only need 4 inches as you gain length on the TOP chain and the BOTTOM chain going around the  idler.....

 Thanks about the track info, I didn't even notice that. I did know about the loader tracks, I assumed that was original because it was setup for a backhoe too? My initial intent was to weld on some grousers eventually, but with all the wear that isn't going to happen.

 I just bought this thing, looking back at things when I bought it, that's exactly what they did I think.

 I couldn't consciously sell this to someone knowing the issues, and if I was upfront with them I certainly could never get close to my money back.

 This is my mistake at this point, so I'm committed to get it running as it should. I've done dumber things in the past, but not willing to give up just yet.

 Anyone know a set of tracks and sprockets for sale?

 I was able to remove a link on each side, and get the LH track going in the proper direction while I had it apart. The pic shows the RH side adjusted to the 1 1/2" sag per the maintenance manual, while the LH hasn't been adjusted yet. I feel much better now that the tensioners are threaded into the yokes, and the whole idler assembly tracks better. I can start putting some of the bolts back in the shims that were removed to tighten it up more.

 I will only be using this for light duty such as driveway grading, until hopefully I can find replacement tracks and sprockets. At least now I can run the machine and get the feel of everything and start cleaning it up with some fresh paint.

 I used a old ball joint press I've had for about 30 years, it fit perfectly. The pins were very tight, I found if I tightened up the press as much as I could, then hit it with a hammer the pins moved, did this a couple of times and they came out.

 I used my tractor to pull the track when I removed it, and a comealong to tighten the tracks together.

 Thanks! The threads on my ball joint press are almost done, I will have to be doing the same soon.

There are still several H, and HD 3, 4 series out there needing new pins and bushings and if the participants would come together and share an order placement, great savings could be spread amongst the masses. Sad to say you'd be hard pressed to find an american machine shop to make p&b sets for the price.

Your track pads only seem to be worn down near smooth to the bolt heads. 7024 rod is a great filler to use for bonding "grouser" bars to the existing pads but it is a horizontal and flat only filler rod as has a very "fluid" puddle. Great rod for platform decking as instance. 1/2" strip about 1-1/4" tall/wide welded on both sides to the pads would really dig well and not fold over very easy. 

I like Lincoln 7018 Excalibur rod better myself and still use it quite a bit. Seems to be just as strong and much easier to control as it's an all position rod where 7024 is not. 

I never really seen them again unless a local job.

C1045 strip welded to track shoes and capped with either Stoody 31, or 35 hard facing wears pretty well in abrasive conditions which I would recommend the original poster does with his machine. The choice of 7024 rod and patience play handsomely together in this type work. 7024 in the horizontal position when joining dissimilar thickness baseplates in "tee" joint configuration is great as the edge wetting ensures penetration into the thicker material without burning through the thinner, (within reason).

I have a lot of time, and some money vested in setting up the ability to order from China so going to be vague in my response(s). I will say a trial set is installed on an older HD-7 at my uncles place and the tractor currently has about 250 operating hours on the set. I'm told there is no noticeable wear to anything that was either built up, or replaced at this time and the dozer is used routinely. The P&B sets came from China. I had a friend make the master P&B sets. The "masters" were almost twice the cost of the China produced sets per each.

Price to end user? About $87.50 each after customs entry fees and taxes delivered to my shop on a P&B set matching specifications. There is a nine to 12 week turnaround to reception timeframe also with a 200pc minimum order. It would take a few people going in together as cost prohibitive for a single user.

It can be done albeit expensive. Keep in mind the cost of sublet repair labor also if you cannot do the work yourself. Even on a small crawler, it is a lot of work to replace the undercarriage; and many unknowns till broken into. 

Going to add to this just a bit. Once I have both this tractor, and another currently in testing evaluated fully, I will offer the service to rebuild tracks. I have a mobile Rogers track press with most any adapter set needed and can push any pins & bushings up to and including HD21 size tractors. My future plans are to travel and do some on site work in the warmer months in different parts of the country. Pricing will be "reasonable" for on site service.

I am working an angle to rebuild chains, rollers, idlers and sprockets but not complete on those yet. My uncle, (who we did this together) has passed on so I'm looking to replace his service(s). There are a couple of interested parties in negotiations currently.

Hopefully, in the near future this can all be brought to fruition and benefits can be had by those struggling to locate parts. I'm not really new at this kind of work so once acceptable sublet services are in place, it will be a go.

Spoke with uncle yesterday and asked him to measure wear on the P&B's of the HD-7. There appears to be about .009" wear on the left track and about .0075" wear on the right track measured over four pins reference points I'd indented into the chains for trammel points install. This measurement is easily taken after the areas are cleaned and tracks tensioned properly.

There are 267 hours on the P&B's since install for reference. The dozer is not used hard but routinely to clean the feed lots. I don't know if the P&B's will wear faster once more clearances open from usage or not, but would expect so as foreign abrasive matter will inevitably find it's way in and exacerbate wear.

I've asked to be updated at 250 hour intervals to keep a log of the wear as it progresses. So far I'm quite impressed with what I've seen.

I do have the feeling that if a guy is willing to spend the money we can rebuild the tracks, or undercarriage and far extend the service life of the machine. Just because parts are obsolete doesn't mean the machine has to be put to scrap.

Yes, and thanks. I have not measured this myself but showed my relation how to use the trammel gauge I left for the purpose. My target was a 4K hours undercarriage wear rating on this size tractor which is a bit heavy for the home hobby machine.

I'm kind of hoping the service can sell itself in the near future as the pricing can come down a bit with more quantity ordered in the P&B's but will require pre orders to qualify. Ultimately this won't be limited to just A-C machines as one in test now is an IHC tractor. 

Undercarriage parts/costs have put many an otherwise serviceable tractor down over the years. Nothing new there and will continue to worsen as time marches on and parts are NLA.

You are correct in assumption there is no option to selectively replace P&B's as they must all be replaced together. Worn out P&B's such as you have does not mean the chain links are bad so these need measured up also. Drive sprockets at a minimum will require rebuild, or replacement as if they have been driving chains worn through the bushing they are extremely out of tolerance. If you put new parts against them the teeth will either break out, or at a minimum accelerated wear of your P&B's will occur. Sometimes doing a task correct is the only option IMO. Bushings worn through are a dead giveaway the tractor has had limited care and the cost will be great to rectify.

Part of what drives a price is a requirement or standards to be met. My specification of a 4K lifespan on a 15K tractor weight is a contributing factor for certain. I'm certain they would build P&B's that would only run 1K hours at reduced cost if that was the request and minimum quantities were satisfied for the order. That however is not a market I wish to participate within.

A chain doesn't usually break but rather won't stay on the machine. A few times reinstalling a thrown track usually changes a guys mind on the direction to take.

Thanks,

You spend $10 K on a dozer and you might increased the value $15K.

Yes Steve, it is a common misconception the machine can be purchased cheap and repaired inexpensively to have the "Golden Goose" once done. However with crawlers few realize the amount of specialty tools and expertise required to do the most simple of tasks on the machine. So many variations of doing the same thing from type to type. Finding a shop these days that does track work is becoming increasingly difficult as much of the undercarriage anymore is a throwaway item once run out, and good used stocks thinning coupled with nothing available in the aftermarket or OEM levels. Many of the existing parts can be built up and machined true, but even that has limitations. It takes a special skill set to maintain aged construction equipment and most won't bear the expense of doing so; hence the reason a crawler sells for little dollars to potential value.

CTL's have mostly eliminated the small crawler in personal, and farm usage around here. Lot of versatility in a single machine. However those are pushing $75K for something with the capacity of a small metal tracked dozer, so the old crawler still has a viable purpose if used correctly. Couple the acquistion expense with the expense of repairs to their undercarriage, and it's quite a shock to many. Several around here have discovered the value in good tracks vs more inexpensive tracks in those too.

I'm only putting this out there to hopefully get people to thinking there are options available. I know where several crawlers are setting in different places unused because they won't keep a track on any longer. Staying with A-C one guy has an older HD-19, and two HD-21's that are mine for the hauling off if wanted but they all need extensive track work. The PS transmission in one of the 21's needs resealed but does work I'm told; the other has no history as was purchased for parts spares. A couple of IH tractors and certainly some Cat units. Caterpillar is the favored brand of many, but I'm from Springfield and loyal to the A-C brand in crawlers and wheel loaders. Got my feet wet many years ago, and it's been carried along the way through the years.

Once I get all the sublet labor established I plan to start purchasing up worn tracks for rebuild stocks. I'd like to offer tracks on a rebuilt exchange service eventually. This would lessen down time. Don't really have a clue of what will be desired but if the sublet shops are willing to work with me, I'll get it figured out.

I do plan to make attempt to have the P&B's machined in this country but that's not been possible from a cost perspective at this writing. As mentioned earlier, the master sets I had made meeting the criteria were almost double the cost of the chinese units. The search however will go on.

Thanks,

 

 call J&H Welding Inc  906 353 6119

 Mike is a nice guy to deal with

Hi and thanks for responding; most don't. No insults or anything of the like meant by me as I'm just relaying it is possible to keep a machine operational with $$$ and the willingness to make it happen. Hard to find a good tracked backhoe these days as the combination hasn't been popular in many years. Hydraulic excavators long took that usage away. Kind of like toothed bucket trackloaders used to dig a lot of basements but not so much any longer.

I'm not trying to "drum up" business on this site at all. I will approach that when the time comes via a website and advertising aimed directly at that market. This is just the open and free flow exchange of information with track work being a single segment. I'm not any kind of close to going into production and am in the prototyping stage(s).  It is a niche market I don't see anyone else chasing at this time but there is a lot of equipment that could be well served if someone took the lead. I hope it will take off, but who knows.....

 

The willingness is here 100%... unfortunately it's just the $$$ aspect for me in my current situation. If I didn't have an upcoming wedding and a major home renovation on the docket for the next year or two, it might be a different story!

Codger wrote: Hard to find a good tracked backhoe these days as the combination hasn't been popular in many years.

This is ultimately why I jumped at the chance to buy this machine when I did. You don't see equipment like this often. I live in an area in northwestern British Columbia on 80 acres with a lot of thick bush and trees, but the ground in a large amount of the acreage is soft and wet. This HD4 with its FEL and Backhoe attachment is the absolute PERFECT machine for the kind of work I need it for and the terrain I use it on. I absolutely love this machine, and feel like she's given me way more than my money's worth out of her in just the year and a half I've had her. If I had the cash to spare, I wouldn't think twice about putting my name down for a set of 70 pins and bushings. Hopefully in a couple years I'll be in a better position in that way.

Codger wrote: I'm not trying to "drum up" business on this site at all. I will approach that when the time comes via a website and advertising aimed directly at that market.

Sounds great! Drum away! I hope when the time comes that I have the $$$ you've figured out all the kinks and are in full production... I'll certainly be keeping tabs on this forum to see your updates on that front!

In closing, here are some photos of my machine. I think the sprockets appear to be in decent shape still, but that's just based on pics I've seen of other machines where the sprocket teeth look like they've been worn down to the point of looking like sharks teeth.

For the life of me I can't see how removing a track link can change the contact points on the sprocket, not saying it doesn't happen, I just can't see how? I understand the wear has changed things, but that has already been done and I look at it as the sprocket and links have wore together. Like removing a link from a motorcycle chain, it shortens it, but doesn't change its geometry? I know that's is over simplifying it.

 I'll look into flipping the bushings and pins, but I'm not sure that would be enough to remove enough slop for the tensioners to thread into the yokes properly.

Thanks and always nice to see tractors in their natural beauty to which my wife swears is a beholder and eye type thing.....

Looks like a very versatile little machine and they certainly were handy in their day. They did better in sloppy dirt/mud than a rubber tired backhoe loader many times.

I do see a lot of wear in your undercarriage. The sprockets have probably been changed when the originals were "skipping" from the bushings wear, or wear through as they have been run that way quite some time. To me, the sprockets appear to be much newer than the balance of the undercarriage. I also see a lot of wear to the chain links and front idler in the photo. Much of this can be built up, or rebuilt, but the simple truth is a donor undercarriage is most beneficial and prudent citing the economics. There would be a lot of time with welding on those parts to get enough material placed to bring down to proper dimension.

I know a guy in southern Illinois that has a 655 in his yard minus an engine after the transmission went south. Last I knew it was still on it's tracks but that's been a couple of years now. I'll look this up in the next few days and relay you their information to talk if you like.

No need for any body, or head armor at all. No arguments, or fights to be had here. Most of what you stated in relation to parts availability is very true. Parts are NLA for Allis most of the time. Not everything is available easily for Caterpillar all of the time either. A lot still is however as the company is still in business. Where those replacement parts come from is anybody's guess. A part may be cast in India, and finished out someplace else, shipped by sea to a US port to be entered into Caterpillar's marketing arm. That's just what I've seen myself.

Never have heard someone say Caterpillar undercarriage wore, or lasted better than other's. That is just me saying as I've never heard that in the past. I'll ask the gent I purchased my track press from as both his he and dad, were involved in the undercarriage business over 40 years and they would know from a practical standpoint. I will reference both the D7E, and D7F models along with the HD-16, and HD-16B series as they would have competed for the same market share. Not looking to berate or anything, just a question I'd like an answer for. 

Myself, I was mostly around IH undercarriage as doing an apprenticeship being just a few months in when the mines started shuttering and there simply weren't any jobs to be had for a young guy starting out in the field. Since then, well, you know the track business is about kaput with everything run to destruction these days. Except for the emergency type repair, track rebuild really doesn't exist as it used to.

This is where a guy like me comes in to make a part, or rebuild something that is worn out and NLA. As example, there is a guy around here that has an old Oliver crawler tractor and he made the chains that are on it. Of course they look different than the originals, but using pins and bushings from another tractor and finishing his links to meet the pins, it works well. Has rubber block pads so pulls a float on the streets during the town celebrations that go on here.

I have little actual experience and certainly am not an "operator". It does however start with an idea.   

Phone  906 353 6119

 Mike will steer you in the correct direction