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Heated Shop Cement Floor

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cabinhollow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cabinhollow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 8:30am
Originally posted by Kurzy Kurzy wrote:

  Howdy,
 After reading again and again all posts I come up with 1 question. By putting the pex tubing under the slab or down so deep in the cement don't you loose or slow heating?

Thanks Kurzy

The slab is used as a heat sink.
Very slow warm up, very slow cool down.
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tadams(OH) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 2:12pm
the styrofoam under the cement keep you from lossing heat and cement puts off a lots of heat for faster recovery when you open the door. I aways fire up my boiler around October 1st so I don't have to start with a cold slab of concrete.
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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 3:53pm
you need to remember ... 'heat goes to cold' for 99% of all thermal problems EXCEPT how icy cold female  toes find YOUR warm body.
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NEVER green View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEVER green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 5:38pm

One more thing with forced air, way more dust, hate dust on my clean parts!
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Dusty MI View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dusty MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by DougG DougG wrote:

Whats the brand Dusty ? What does it use for energy ?

The first one I got for taking it down, it was somewhat in the way. I didn't know what I was going to do with it when I took it down. A couple years latter I built out first shop-garage and I installed it there, and was very happy with it.
In 2012 we moved and built a new shop there. I wanted the same type of heater in that new shop. I shopped around a little and bought one from W.W. Grainger. If I remember right it was built in Michigan. I use LPG for it, I'm sure you can use natural gas in it, and maybe fuel oil.

Dusty
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 10:01pm
The key element to hydronic comfort, is the fact that you have heat at floor level, going UP.  Heating concrete means you have a very large solid mass at a comfortable temperature.

Very few of you will remember, but our ancestors had a neat trick for staying warm in bed at night... build a fire in the fireplace early, get it roaring, and stack some soapstone bricks around the front of the fire.  The fireplace, chimney, and mantle are all stone, and they're warming up, as are the bricks in front.  When it was time for bed, a brick or two was put in a metal container on a stick, and slid under the bed... and it warmed the bed pretty well.

Now, think about walking into an unheated shop... on a 15F day.  Close the door, and fire up a heater or shop furnace... let it burn for an hour, and let's say the room temp makes it all the way to 70F.  The heated air will all flow straight up to the ceiling, and as the furnace runs, will eventually get it so that down near the floor, it'll be at the proper temperature.

The floor, however, will still be VERY cold, as will be the soles of your boots, and your feet... very soon, your ankles, then your shins, then knees will be cold, and at that point, you'll start having back pains, your hips won't move, and your arms and hands will be unuseable, even though you might be sweating out the top of your head.

Warming the floor does NOT change the fact that heat rises, but it DOES mean that you're not standing on an ice-cold floor with a gas furnace set at 70F.

You can run a forced-air heater of ANY type, and the concrete will not warm up substantially... by simple thermal stratification, the floor will ALWAYS be coldest part of the shop, even IF you insulate beneath the slab.  Radiant heaters shining down from the ceiling WILL heat the floor eventually... but not evenly.  Changing out the air in the shop (by opening the doors) WILL be recovered fairly quickly by a radiant tube ceiling heat system, but only the first solid object that it sees.  The concrete directly beneath a truck will not warm up until LONG AFTER the truck has warmed up, too.

The concrete floor is an incredible mass, which means it takes lots of energy to CHANGE it's temperature.  The amount of 'thermal mass' in an object determines how much energy it will hold, and of course, it will not gain or lose that energy very quickly... so once you get the floor up to temperature, it will tend to STAY at that temperature, even with air changeover events...

And you're still standing on a nice, warm floor.  Your tools will stay warm, you won't have condensation forming on everything... you won't have sweating, rusting machine tools, tractor parts, engine blocks...  they'll be warm and dry.

I always recommend to EVERYBODY... even if it's just a pole barn... to put down styrofoam, then a couple inches of compactible fill, with PEX in the fill, then put in the wire or rebar on chairs, and pour the slab.  The perimeter can ALWAYS be finished around the last half-a-foot with a small mixer and trowel later, but get insulation and tubing under that slab, and later on, when you want to put heat in the floor, it goes in easy and fast, and works really well.

It does NOT matter what your 'primary source' of heat is.  A wood-burner, a coal furnace, waste oil, propane, fuel oil... even coolant from a generator engine (it's just throwing away heat anyway)  will warm that floor.

IF you feel need to manage the temperature of the floor with automation, the process is really easy-  when you pour the slab, take an extra 10' scrap of PEX, plug the far end, and place it into the slab about 9 feet.  Once the concrete has cured, you can slip a temperature sensing probe up that PEX, into the slab, and use that as feedback to control your heat distribution system.  Works a whole lot better than a wall thermostat when excessive zone temperature is a problem.


Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Kurzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kurzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2019 at 7:39am
  Howdy,
   One more question. Cost. 28 x 36 floor. Just  ball park figure. Doing yourself or contractor doing it?

Thanks Kurzy
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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2019 at 9:26am
That's at least 12 cubic yards of concrete ( FULL, BIG truck) !!!  That's a LOT of concrete to deal with AND you'll want it level,smooth and done right the FIRST time.
It's one job best left to the pros..... If you're in good health, you can shave coins off other areas of a build to make up for the cost.
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Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2020 at 11:37pm
If it's a workshop, I wouldn't go thinner than 6"... I calculated 18 yd... 6" thick... 28*36=1008.  Divide that in half for a 6" slab, and you got 504 cubic feet... divide by 27 and it's 18ish yards.

For that size, I'd pour in three segments... I'd pour left and right sides 12 wide x 28 long, and finish those, then come back to pour the center section at 12x28... saw cut them down 14ft down the center...

A 12yd load is pushing road and soil limits for many situations... and the square footage will require lots.  For a 12x36 pour, I'd recommend five sets of hands... two on screed, two on rakes, and one on the chute, and following behind, at least two finishers.  If you pour the first two slabs about  two-and-a-half, mebbie three hours apart, your finishers will be on the first slab, then floating the second about the time the first one is in a wait... and after that, they'll be back-and-forth between the two, checking on the first, while following the second.  I'd strip the forms two days later, let them shrink for about two weeks, then drill for rebar ties, lay reinforcement, and pour the last strip.  Using the cured slabs for your screed surface, you'll get a nice, even result. 

You're looking at 6yds per segment, so multiply that by your local rate.  Where I'm at, that can be anywhere from 80 to 130/yd for a 3500psi (@ 5 slump) mix delivered to my property.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Ted J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ted J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2020 at 3:06am
I agree with Dave to a point, I poured a LOT of mud in my lifetime and I do like he says, pour the two outer pieces first and then finish with the center.  I'd drill holes in the 2x8s (frames) and put re-rod sticking IN the side pours at least 4' and out so the center piece 'connects' to the side pours.  Again, at least 4'.  This way your rod is IN the concrete and you don't have to drill.
I wouldn't cut the sections either, IF they crack, that's not gonna help and it's an unnecessary step.
Around here, the operator from the concrete company is the chute man, so you can take him out of the equation.  You can get by with one raker and have the other guy with a shovel.  You'll need one guy on a bull float almost as you go along.  He's gonna be the most important as he's GOTTA KNOW what he's doing!!
If it's not being poured in HOT weather, you need to have a finisher starting when you're half poured.  Otherwise it'll get away from him, but now a days they are using a machine and it's easier, faster and you can wait longer.  I don't think they do as good a job as a man finishing though.  They don't get the rock down and a guy can.
I didn't see where anyone mentioned what bag mix to use?  If you're going to go 6" deep ( I would ), then you should use 6 bag mix.  Most guys will tell you 5 is good enough, but for the little bit extra, the 6 will give you a better surface and will outlive you!
And DO NOT let anyone talk you into any expansion joint material.  Pour concrete to concrete.  That stuff will eventually rot away and make good places for stuff to fall into and weeds to grow and for water to get into and expand causing problems.  The idea behind it is OK, but is worthless.  ALL 3 pieces are going to rise and fall at the same time so you won't need it.
Enough ranting, I'll follow along and try to help if you have any other questions, but concrete was my specialty!
"Allis-Express"
19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17
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Sherman Farms View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sherman Farms Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2020 at 3:47pm
Just poured a 60x136 foot floor with 2 inch insulation and tubing. Cost for 150yds of concrete, insulation,tubing,labor was just short of $40,000. This building is connected to our shop, which has the same heating system,it works great and keeps you comfortable all day long. The upfront costs a little more,but in long run its worth it.The new building will house our AC collection and some our newer Agco equipment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2020 at 3:50pm
Sherman Farms,
Thanks for the costs! I would like to have something about 1/4 that size. Heated floor would be on my list too. 
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2020 at 3:53pm
re:...
I would like to have something about 1/4 that size.

gee, I'm thinkin it about 1/2 what I need considering what the 'contractor' dropped off last month...

3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kurzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2020 at 7:35am
   

    Howdy,
   All you fellows are great info. I got a much better idea now. So going to the MATE show in Billings this February. It is Montana Ag Trade Expo show. All contractors, building and much more to do with Farm/ranch services. Been told by others that went make sure you go last day of show, thats the day for deals! So will be looking for new ways of doing things too. Might come back with cement slab and building!!

Thanks Kurzy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2020 at 9:19am
Do you best to do it right the first time. A cringe at the cost can be a smile years later knowing the expense was worth it.
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