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DonBC 
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Courtenay, BC,
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 Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 6:32pm |
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i forgot to add that you want the loops under air pressure during the concrete pour in the event that a loop gets damaged during the pour. A lot easier to find and fix than later after the concrete has set.
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Jack of all trades, master of none
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DonBC
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Courtenay, BC,
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Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 6:28pm |
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You can get thermostats designed for in-floor heating. They use a floor temperature sensor in conjunction with the room sensor so that the floor doesn't overheat before the room temperature is satisfied. I just completed designs for a child care facility that wanted warm floors. Because there are several rooms there are 31 loops any where from 125' to 310'. The majority average about 250'.
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Jack of all trades, master of none
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plummerscarin
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Joined: 22 Jun 2015
Location: ia
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Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 1:29pm |
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N.G. It is a 68 with a 390. I had a repaint done in the 80's and now it needs floors.
My tubing is half inch pex using six loops not over 300 ft. using a single pump and single zone. As stated the hottest water leaves the boiler and begins the circuit on the perimeter of the building. The first two runs are 6 inches apart and the others are 12 inches apart.
I had two buildings done this way. The contractor for the first building did not want the tubing stapled to the foam therefore the installation was difficult cuz it was tied to wire. And I suspect the tubing is in the concrete not near the bottom. The second one I used a different contractor who was fine with it stapled to the foam and it stayed.
I have never heard of anyone putting it in sand.
Edited by plummerscarin - 15 Dec 2019 at 1:30pm
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NEVER green
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Location: MN.
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Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 11:43am |
 DaveKamp wrote:
Jay just noted one of the two reasons why I'm putting my big shop's PEX down in the filler material BELOW the slab, but above the insulation...
First... when you drill into the concrete, if the PEX is BELOW the concrete, chances of hitting it are much less. Second... if the concrete expands, contracts, or cracks and shifts, and the PEX is BELOW the concrete, the shifting of concrete will not shear the tubing.
And one other thought... the tubing is MUCH less expensive than it was 15 years ago... and much less expensive than the concrete. Putting tubing down before a pour doesn't commit you to heating it with that tubing, and it doesn't LIMIT you to heating it hydronically- it simply gives you the option. You can heat it with IR burners on the ceiling, or a forced air furnace. Furthermore, hydronic doesn't care WHERE the heat comes from... as noted previously, you can use any old water heater, and for control and circulation, just put an old-school mercury-switch thermostat on the wall controlling a relay that powers the pump.
My neighbor's attached garage is an excellent example... he's got most of 30 x 36 floor less a spot for his basement stairway and kitchen/hallway doorstep. He's got about 1000 square feet of concrete, and under it, 400ft of 1/2" pex . The first loop goes all the way around the perimeter, about six inches in from the edge under the overhead door seals, and about eight edges from the outer walls and back yard door. The second loop goes back and forth for two passes on 1 ft intervals at the overhead door end, and the third loop fills in the rest of the floor. They're all about 110ft total, fed with a simple manifold and a 3gpm pump. The water heater is a 15 gallon, and temp is set on the absolute-lowest-setting.
Concentrating more heat towards the edges makes up for the fact that most of the floor's heat is lost there. Concentrating heat under the door thresholds helps keep the doors from freezing to the ground.
The water heater is a high-efficiency unit, with it's exhaust in PVC going out the east wall. Most building codes will require a furnace or water heater to be elevated a certain height off the floor... this is so that motor fuel vapors can't concentrate high enough to contact the burner or pilot light, and cause an explosion...
As Jay noted, thermosyphon WILL work on hydronic heating, however, the water heater's highest point MUST be below the floor, and to work effectively, there must be only one loop, and the water heater's cutoff point MUST be able to go all the way down to whatever room temperature you want to limit to. Better control and efficiency is to run a for-purpose pump with a relay and thermostat.
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As a cement finisher I love the idea of the tubes in sand, there is nothing worse then finishing cement on top of foam insulation. I also like the idea of the rebar not touching the tubes.
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NEVER green
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Location: MN.
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Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 11:34am |
plummerscarin wrote:
1200 sq ft. 12ft ceiling. Thermostat maintains 62 degrees. 1000 gallon summer fill will cover the heating season in east central Iowa. Actually around 750 gals used. Set the temperature and forget it. One could add auxiliary heat you want it warmer but I'm comfortable with set up. Can't wear heavy boots while working cuz it's too warm. The downside is you can't use programmable thermostat the change temps quickly. I just love this set up. Water heater also works well but I did not go that route.  |
What year cyclone?? Maybe looks clean?
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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50
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NEVER green
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Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 11:31am |
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I love my in floor heat, set at 53,havent checked but have heard the ceiling temp would also be at 53 unlike forced air.
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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50
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plummerscarin
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Location: ia
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Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 9:56am |
1200 sq ft. 12ft ceiling. Thermostat maintains 62 degrees. 1000 gallon summer fill will cover the heating season in east central Iowa. Actually around 750 gals used. Set the temperature and forget it. One could add auxiliary heat you want it warmer but I'm comfortable with set up. Can't wear heavy boots while working cuz it's too warm. The downside is you can't use programmable thermostat the change temps quickly. I just love this set up. Water heater also works well but I did not go that route.
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 6081
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Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 9:56am |
jaybmiller wrote:
Dave brings up a GREAT point !!!
Use SEVERAL 'zones' NOT just one ! Better to have 4, 100' runs than 1,400'. That way if one pipe gets a leak, the other 3 will keep working !!
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That's one part of it, but theres other part that are important:
1) pipes don't flow water for free... they have restriction which increases with length. When you run three short loops, the restriction is substantially less than one long loop.
2) heat loss from a tube is a function of temperature differential. Temperature of the coolant is highest at it's first point, thus tubing will lose it's heat more at the BEGINNING of the loop, than at the end. That means a one-loop system will distribute more heat in the earliest-fed areas, than in the latter.
3) Volume is more important to even heating than velocity or pressure, as it's the volume of water carrying the energy, not the speed or pressure of the water.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
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Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 9:48am |
Dave brings up a GREAT point !!!
Use SEVERAL 'zones' NOT just one ! Better to have 4, 100' runs than 1,400'. That way if one pipe gets a leak, the other 3 will keep working !!
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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DaveKamp
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Location: LeClaire, Ia
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Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 9:43am |
Jay just noted one of the two reasons why I'm putting my big shop's PEX down in the filler material BELOW the slab, but above the insulation...
First... when you drill into the concrete, if the PEX is BELOW the concrete, chances of hitting it are much less. Second... if the concrete expands, contracts, or cracks and shifts, and the PEX is BELOW the concrete, the shifting of concrete will not shear the tubing.
And one other thought... the tubing is MUCH less expensive than it was 15 years ago... and much less expensive than the concrete. Putting tubing down before a pour doesn't commit you to heating it with that tubing, and it doesn't LIMIT you to heating it hydronically- it simply gives you the option. You can heat it with IR burners on the ceiling, or a forced air furnace. Furthermore, hydronic doesn't care WHERE the heat comes from... as noted previously, you can use any old water heater, and for control and circulation, just put an old-school mercury-switch thermostat on the wall controlling a relay that powers the pump.
My neighbor's attached garage is an excellent example... he's got most of 30 x 36 floor less a spot for his basement stairway and kitchen/hallway doorstep. He's got about 1000 square feet of concrete, and under it, 400ft of 1/2" pex . The first loop goes all the way around the perimeter, about six inches in from the edge under the overhead door seals, and about eight edges from the outer walls and back yard door. The second loop goes back and forth for two passes on 1 ft intervals at the overhead door end, and the third loop fills in the rest of the floor. They're all about 110ft total, fed with a simple manifold and a 3gpm pump. The water heater is a 15 gallon, and temp is set on the absolute-lowest-setting.
Concentrating more heat towards the edges makes up for the fact that most of the floor's heat is lost there. Concentrating heat under the door thresholds helps keep the doors from freezing to the ground.
The water heater is a high-efficiency unit, with it's exhaust in PVC going out the east wall. Most building codes will require a furnace or water heater to be elevated a certain height off the floor... this is so that motor fuel vapors can't concentrate high enough to contact the burner or pilot light, and cause an explosion...
As Jay noted, thermosyphon WILL work on hydronic heating, however, the water heater's highest point MUST be below the floor, and to work effectively, there must be only one loop, and the water heater's cutoff point MUST be able to go all the way down to whatever room temperature you want to limit to. Better control and efficiency is to run a for-purpose pump with a relay and thermostat.
Edited by DaveKamp - 15 Dec 2019 at 9:49am
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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jaybmiller
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Location: Greensville,Ont
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Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 8:56am |
Take pictures of the grid BEFORE you pour the concrete ! Be sure to have reference points. Otherwise when some 'helper' decides to drill a hole to fasten a tire changer down YOU won't have to fix the PEX..... Saw one install, just a 40G gas hot water heater, NO pump... worked same a 'G' engine cooling system though I'm betting a small pump works faster.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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DaveKamp
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Location: LeClaire, Ia
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Posted: 14 Dec 2019 at 11:26pm |
Can't beat a heated floor... I put down PEX before pouring the floors of my enveloping addition... the south porch, and the north and east basements all have PEX tubing in 'em. Having insulation under the slab, and around the foundation, make all the difference in the world.
My main shop project is still amidst the site engineering, but when done, I'll actually have foam topped with 4" of compacted lime, inside which will be PEX tubing, then a 6" reinforced concrete slab that stops about a foot from all the outside walls. This is where my PEX will come up, and once my sweeps and manifolds are up, I'll fill it with pea gravel and use just a few inches of concrete on top to 'seal' it. Since I don't drive anything heavy that close to the wall, it'll allow me to easily break out the area if I need to get in there to work on the PEX.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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HaroldOmaha
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Location: Omaha
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Posted: 14 Dec 2019 at 11:15pm |
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I have a Geo thermal in floor heat + air working off 2 wells. 40 x 52. back of barn is in the ground about 3 feet.( southwest Omaha ) average daily cost $1.92 for this year. Have 2 -10x 10 doors and 1 - 12 x 14 don't keep the doors open too long when its cold, but seems to recover heat wise real quick. so far it's holding at 60 degrees. 12 x 28 tool-work room stays about 62 degrees.
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DanWi
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Posted: 14 Dec 2019 at 9:25pm |
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We have a heated floor in our shop, keep it between 50 and 55 degrees Your feet are warm and you can work on the floor under things. We keep the skidsteer in the shop all winter so it is ready to go to feed cattle or plow snow. When you are working in there a sweat shirt is warm enough and if you are doing something outside and going in and out it isn't so warm with winter clothes, If you would be working in there all day you can turn it up to short sleeve temps. Floor heat is pretty adaptable you can run it off outside boiler, gas or electric water heater or a small inside boiler. You could even set it up to take heat off a wood stove.
Edited by DanWi - 14 Dec 2019 at 9:29pm
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Dakota Dave
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Location: ND
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Posted: 14 Dec 2019 at 7:52pm |
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The farm shop has a heated floor. And when I helped my niece build their house it has a heated floor. Heated floors are great they have a very stable heat. And are very nice to work on. The shop has a large door we drive a combine with a header on in when you open it it takes a while for the air temp to cone back up. So we also run a corn stove and a wood stove to bring the temp back quickly. Heated floors take a long time to change temp so if it's like my shop it's turned down until the day I'm actually going to be working in there I went with forced air propane. I wish I would have went with infrared heat. We have infrared in our aircraft hangers and recovery time is increadably fast. The floor is also warm and instlation can be done any time fairly cheep
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Bill_MN
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Posted: 14 Dec 2019 at 7:11pm |
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There are some nice videos on youtube of laying out different types of systems. Neighbor has it in his farm shop, laying on warm concrete sure beats cold and damp floor and your tools and parts stay bone dry.
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trace
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Posted: 14 Dec 2019 at 6:35pm |
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hydroinic heated floor can do with water heater and pumps if not too big. wonderful heat. put two layers of 2" foam under flr.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 14 Dec 2019 at 5:45pm |
Check out some this old house videos, those guys put them in just about every project they build... 
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Kurzy
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Posted: 14 Dec 2019 at 5:35pm |
Howdy, Just getting ideas in order for spring. Need to build a shop, thinking heated cement floor. Some of you must have one. Just need the good and the bad for starters.
Thanks Kurzy
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