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HD5 clutch yoke question

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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 9:02pm
Here are some more pics and hopefully a video link. Bearing in the plate seems tight, not sure on on the brass bearing Cokes referring to but if it's the lining pressed into the outer plate it doesn't look worn to me. I did wiggle the plate back in forth and the bearing had no excessive play what so ever. When I pulled the larger plate with the clutch shaft and inch or so backward everything looked clean down behind it, actually looks kind of new. 
What kind of job is it to remove the clutch shaft because I'm thinking that may have to be done. 


Edited by heron - 26 Oct 2019 at 9:09pm
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 9:05pm
I guess I exceeded how much I could put on one post so here is one more, not sure why it won't upload more. uploads/8354/IMG_20191026_142505896_2019-10-26_21-05-04.jpg
Also, there are no issues with Ujoints, transmission or anything from the rear that could have caused this, the joint going into the tranny feels tight and Ujoints are great and in phase. I'm at a loss...


Edited by heron - 26 Oct 2019 at 9:11pm
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Leop View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 10:18pm
Those don't look bad at all. Much better than mine in fact.

Could it be that it seams like the vibration is comming from that area when it is really coming from some place totaly different.

Vice grips on the output shaft isnt much of a load. I was taught to check deflection with a crowbar. But other than that it seams like you have done a thorough job.

Have you tried running just the motor and clutch with nothing at all connected to the output shaft?

No video. But one would help.

Honestly though im totaly baffled.
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 11:49pm
Did the video link not work? Yes, perhaps the vibration could be coming from somewhere else but I haven't a clue. I'll recheck why my video is not working tomorrow. Thanks for taking your time.
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Ray54 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 6:44pm
I think Leop is on to something by trying the engine if you can, and then with the clutch installed but the drive line off yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 7:25pm
Heron,

Are you sure that you have the hardware numbered 22, 23, 24, and 25? Are you also sure that #24 is tight. Im thinking that #24 might be missing, or perhaps it loosened itself over the years, especialy if no locktight was used.

Leo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 7:28pm
This is the other relevant diagram.
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 8:14pm
I tried it today without the driveshaft attached and there was still a vibration but I don't think it's as bad. I did get the shaft back in but ran out of time to start it up. BTW: The clutch shaft was spinning because the flywheel clutch is stuck again. I'll have to start it in gear then see how the vibration feels once the clutch is broke free. I'm wondering if maybe the clutch assembly has so much rust maybe it's creating a vibration. Then again maybe it's just this 271 as it's not going to be smooth, I would think. We had this same motor in a Marco screening plant back in the 70's and I remember it vibrating quite a bit also. If you guys say the wobble and play is normal than so be it. 
I'll keep you guys posted as my next priority is to figure out a way to make the shifter work better as it has too much play. The good news is the steering clutches are like new, undercarriage is also like new and motor runs like a top with no oil burning and no smoke. Big smile
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 9:07am
Oh yes, all the hardware is in place. Fortunately, this machine was purchased directly by my grandfather so my father has given me the history plus this machine was in my backyard when I was born. It was retired from the company in 1964. It was ran very little as most of their work was large scale.  The only thing that was done was the flywheel clutch assembly in early 1960. My father said there was some kind of updated or better clutch and that it came as an entire assembly. He remembers putting it in with his dad in one afternoon. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 10:36am
Well if that machine has been in your family for that long then we got to get it fixed!

You mentioned in your first post that the yoke was way too loose on the clutch shaft. Can you tell us how you determined that?

I have been assuming that you pulled the entire driveshaft out, separated the clutch side yoke from the ujoint, and then hand fitted just the yoke on to the clutch shaft and then noticed at that point that it slipped on loose and wobbled? But is that what you actualy did?
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 12:00pm
Yes, I took it off the ujoint and put it on the end of the clutch shaft. It wobbled unlike any yoke I've ever fitted on a shaft. But, seems from what I've read it will not be tight.  Yet when the shaft is connected the front of the driveshaft moves quite a bit...hence why my dad always thought it was a bad ujoint. The wobble has been there for many decades but again the machine was not used much and my dad always said once you increase rpms the  the vibration goes away. It's only at a lower idle you feel it but I still felt it with no shaft connected and the machine running. I've never sat on another HD5 running so I have nothing to compare it to. Bird in a cage analogy as I've never known another HD5 outside of this one. We had lots of other larger detroits but I don't remember any vibration in our loaders(michigans) or other AC dozers. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 1:24pm
So to clarify:

From the first drawing above (on page 2) the only thing connected on the engine side (clutch shaft) was #2 the yoke, and the hardware that holds the yoke onto the clutch shaft which is numbered #22, #23,#24 and #25? And the #24 bolt was tightened down? And even after all that you could wobble the #2 yoke around the clutch shaft by hand?

And by wobble I mean that the yoke can turn an elipse around the shaft. I would expect it to slide on loose, and maybe chatter when turned clockwise and counter clockwise around the clutch shaft due to cleance or wear between the yoke splines and shaft splines. But to me wobble of any huge amount that can be caused by hand even when the yoke and shaft are bolted together through thier centerlines (by bolt #24) indicates some kind of seriouse problem in that area.

If the above is true then something must be wrong. Im no Allis Chalmers expert but like you I have never seen a yoke wobble on it's shaft to any great degree. And even if it did, you would think that after bolt #24 was tightened down tight that it would be hard to get it to wobble just by hand.

All I can think of is that if they got bolt #24 mixed up with some other longer bolt that maybe when they tightened it the bolt hit the bottom of it's hole before it was able to cinched down the yoke to the shaft? Maybe that let the yoke move around enough that it wobbled itself out and then that wobble ruined the ujoint, or allowed something to bend?

A video of you wobbling the yoke on the shaft by hand would help. I would think it would let the real experts on these machines tell us if it looks like an acceptable amount.

My advice would be to get this wobble question figured out first and then move on to the ujoint next to see if it is also damaged.

Cheers,

Leo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 7:48pm
To tighten up tha shifter - check that cross tube that is held into shift tower by the 2 bolts through the sides of the tower , the pin in the yoke could be work or the ends of the bolts could be worn and allowing slop , also the end of the shift lever can be worn and sliding past shifting rails - might require welding it up someand grinding down to size . 
 I made new bolts and machined ends to fit into a new tube I made - then used a larger pin with cuts where end of bolts index into pin to hold it secure - adjusted tension by using spacer washers under the bolts to get proper play needed to work smooth .
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 10:22pm
Coke,

The shifter in my HD6G also has lots of slop in it. Will this advice to heron also apply to an HD6G?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2019 at 1:38pm
Yes - the forward and back movement depends on the right tension on all parts involved so if the tube is worn or the bolts there will be slop and the internal shift yoke will be out of allignment - Next that pin sontrols left and right movement and if yoke and pin are worn allows the end of yoke to be out of allingment with shifting rails creating wear on the end of the yoke that fits into rails . 
 Getting it tightened up in both directions allows smooth movement and positive contact in the right place in the 3 internal rails that select gearing .
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dadsdozerhd5b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 7:11pm
INSTALL A GREASE FITTING IN THE YOLK AND GREASE IT OCCASIONALLY. MINE HAS ALOT OF SLOP AND THAT TAKES CARE OF THE WORST OF IT. OLD, LOUD, VIBRATING MACHINE, AREN'T THEY GREAT! I LOVE BOTH OF MINE!
HD5B, HD5G, (2) FARMALL A's, CUB. DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, IGNORE THE LAUGHTER. FLANNEL IS ALWAYS IN STYLE.
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2019 at 8:21am
No bolts are sized wrong. I spoke to a retired mechanic who worked on these machines a lot at the time. He said the yoke wear was a "common" issue. Most often he had to replace the shaft and the yoke. 
I did install a zirk and greased it up but the wobble is still present and yes you can definitely can move it around in an oblong fashion easily by hand. As I had said in an earlier post my dad has known about it for probably 40 years but assumed it was a worn ujoint. He never really worked the machine since the 60's so he simply greased up the Ujoints and called it a day. If he had to "work" it I'm certain he would have fixed it properly at the time. For me I do think at this point I'm going to be getting rid of the dozer. I simply don't have the time nor can I justify putting money in to the machine just to have it sit. I'd rather get it to someone that can work on it and use it. 
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2019 at 8:22am
Did the grease fitting, still wobbles but at this point I'll run it the way it is and has been for many decades...Thanks for the suggestion!
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