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HD5 clutch yoke question

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heron View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Oct 2019 at 6:28pm
Haven't had the time to work on my grandfather's HD5 for too long but decided today to tackle the first of a few things needing to be done but of course it's more complicated than I first thought. 
For too many years my dad thought the vibration was a Ujoint under the pedals. The vibration annoyed me to the point before givin her a run around today I figured I would get that UJ fixed. But, after pulling it apart it seems the wobble is either the yoke or clutch shaft...So, how does one figure this out and what kind of work would it be to change out the clutch shaft? The keys look perfect, no obvious "wallowing" out of the notches but when I inserted just the yoke back on the shaft it was way too loose. I thought at first maybe it was the bearing in there but the clutch shaft is tight and the Uj's on the driveshaft are all tight. How the wobble got there I haven't a clue. Maybe back in the 60's the machine was run too long with a bad Uj and that's what caused it. Over the last 50 years there probably hasn't been more than 100 hours total put on the dozer.  I think it must have been there but my dad never liked wrenching on machines much. I personally cannot stand for things not to be "right". 
My first thought is to try to find a yoke and try that, if it doesn't tighten things up then I must go with the clutch shaft..maybe, if I can find one. Open to any and all suggestions. Once I get this done, I've got to get the shifting linkage tightened up, the blade valve gasket repaired and then she'll be good to go. 
On another note if anyone is in the market for an HD5 I think I may have to let this sentimental piece go soon. I have no time to tinker and 3 kids to go to college so putting more money into something I don't even use is not going to go over with the boss. I hate the thought but I have to be practical. 
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 12:22pm
Does anyone have any yokes or clutch shafts they would sell? Also, I've attached pictures. I would call these tapered but I'm not certain as this machine should only have the straight splines...?uploads/835uploads/8354/clutch_shaft_3.jpguploads/8354/yoke_2.jpg4/clutch_shaft_1.jpg
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gemdozer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gemdozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 6:08pm
I check tomorrow  if am still have the yoke and shaft for HD5 
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Ray54 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 7:48pm
Those are straight cut, there is bit of bevel at the ends to help them get started .

 All Cat parts that I have incounterd that are tapered,you need a puller or press to take them apart. Many of which don't have slines,just a woodruff key. 
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 8:09pm
The angle starts at the top and slopes consistently down.. not tapered..weird. In the book it shows the earlier 5xxxx serial numbers had tapered and the later models had straight cut. The serial number on mine is 27528 so it should be straight but the sides of the splines definitely have an angle. But if that's considered straight then that's what I need. Poor machine has vibrated there since I can remember, my dad always said it was the Ujoints. Ujoints are perfect, can tell they are original and have been greased well.  
Not sure what they did back then but is the shaft harder than the yoke? Not sure which to look for or do you just replace them both after adding a grease zirk to the yoke....? If there was a way to mic them out I would.... Thanks for the enlightenment!Smile
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 8:11pm
I'd really appreciate it. If not I may have to rig it somehow...not sure how but cannot let it keep wobbling there. Maybe drill it, pin it and put a zirk in the yoke...?Confused
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NomoreJohnDeere View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NomoreJohnDeere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 11:08pm
straight cut as in long ways from front to back as yours are
not straight cut as in the sides of the splines 90 degree

tapered would be from front to back long ways

are the ujoints free? or bound up? 





HD3
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2019 at 8:39am
Ok, got it. The ujoints are perfect.
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Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2019 at 1:17pm
Another thing could be the brass sleve in the culuth throw out bearing housing being worn out from not being greased , or leaving machine idle without the transmission being in neutral and clutch engaged . 
 Many do not realize the clutch drive shaft is supported in the clutch by this brass bearing , as it only contacts the shaft when clutch is released and turns with shaft when clutch in engaged . 
 Mine was worn badly after 50 years and I machined a new one from brass stock I picked up . The throw out bearing housing has grease fittings on the collar to grease this part . 
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2019 at 2:04pm
Coke, my first thought was the bearing but as soon as I fitted the yoke(removed from Ujoint) on to the shaft it wobbled. At that point I wrapped the end of the clutch shaft with  a rubber sleeve, threw some big channel locks on to see if I could move the shaft and it was tight. 
Greasing was always done(probably in excess) as my grandfather and my dad having owned and managed many pieces of equipment knew the cost because it came right out of their pockets. First thing my dad said to me about this issue was, "haven't you greased the driveshaft...?" when he thought the vibration was the Ujoint. Once I told him it was the Yoke/jack shaft he was surprised. If that yoke had a zirk it would have been greased. If I can get one I'll be putting one in it. 
You had given me advice on how to do some things on this machine 6 years ago. I'm just now getting to it. It may end up being sold as I don't have the time or place to give it the attention it needs. 
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Leop View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2019 at 8:07pm
Hi Heron,

Please reffer to the attached parts diagram. Do I understand you correctly that the flange of the yoke labled #7 is not running true to the clutch shaft which is shown on the left side?

You also seam at some point to imply that the yoke has tapered splines, and that the clutch shaft splines are straight. Do I understand that correctly?

If assume that both my assumption as stated above are true then I might have an explanation for your troubles.

Note in the drawing that the transmission input shaft appears to be tapered. If that is the case then I would assume that the yoke labled #10 has a tapered & splined female hole to accept the shaft. Also note that a bolt through the center on yoke #10 holds the yoke onto the shaft, therefore not requiring a press fit as was mention was the case on CAT equipment.

Given all the above observations might I suggest that it could be possible that your dad got yokes #7 and #10 mixed up by accident? If he did then your observations would maybe make sense.

In the case of a mix up the #10 tapered yoke would not slide onto the clutch output shaft far enough to line up true with it's plane of rotation and that might be why you see the wobble you do. Also, the straight splined yoke #7 would be loose and sloppy on the transmission input shaft side and that could also be inducing a wobble.

I have some other ideas, and I might also have a yoke I can sell you if it turns out that you need one, but check out the above theory first and let me know what you find.

Sincerely,

Leo
Beginner HD6G Mechanic

Leo

Edited by Leop - 23 Oct 2019 at 8:27pm
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Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2019 at 9:07pm
That diagram isn't for a HD5 as the part with #1 is about 18" of tube - single joint on front and single joint at transmission . ==
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2019 at 10:33pm
Thats 100% true Coke, and I should have made that clear. That drawing is for an HD6.

I assumed that they were similar. I apologize for any confusion.

Does anyone have the proper diagram for the HD5. My brain has been turning over this question over and over and It would be great to examin the problem using the correct diagram.

Cheers,

Leo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2019 at 10:38pm
Coke it sounds like a typical 4 wheel drive front driveshaft setup. Is the tube there so that it can slide back and forth over the clutch shaft? On a truck that is nessesary because the length of the drive shaft side changes as the axel sweeps across it's arc when the suspension flexes.

Does the HD five have such an issue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2019 at 3:05pm
Just thinking here and could be going in the worry direction.

Could one of the cam assemblies on the clutch come off ? And the vibration is from clutch being way out of balance. I am thinking at least 3 of the cam linkages maybe more,and have no idea why one would come loose. Just fishing for could be things. Another thought how loose is the yoke on the spline, could that be the cause. Again no idea why it would get so loose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2019 at 8:04pm
It's a alip fit into the shaft from clutch housing and a bolt on U joint to the transmission yoke 

Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2019 at 10:37am
As a previous poster said they are straight according to Allils. To me since the top is narrower than the bottom it should be called a tapered but it doesn't matter. I have other yokes where the straight splines are boxed completely but they also have grease fittings on them. 
Also, when I removed the yoke from the Ujoint and slipped it on the shaft it definitely wobbles and has too much play and as I said in an earlier post I wrapped the end of the clutch shaft and put a large pair of channel locks on it and couldn't budge it.
When the machine is running at high idle you can see the wobble right there but as the rpms increase the vibration lessens. 
Not sure if it's the yoke or the shaft that is worn. I'd hoped the yoke was softer than the shaft but I don't know so I'm assuming I need to get another yoke and put it on and see what happens. I'd like to find one that someone could place on a clutch shaft, see if it's tight, if it is on their's but not on mine I know its the shaft...No way to mic it out properly, at least with the tools I have. 
I also talked to someone who told me the 5 and 6 shared the same yoke and shaft but the 5 had a longer driveshaft than the 6...? So, maybe someone that has parts for a 6 might have a yoke and shaft that's good. 
Thanks for all the replies fellas. 


Edited by heron - 25 Oct 2019 at 10:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2019 at 1:45pm
Like I mentioned the yoke is a slip fit onto rear of clutch housing . But also with clutch disengaged seeif there is wobble of the shaft in the throw out bearing inner housing where the brass sleve holds the shaft .
 i got a different drive shaft off a parts machine I had and replaced mine as it was real lose on the clutch shaft . Never noticed a vibration in old one . Check your shaft to make sure it's not dented or bent to cause a imbalance or flexing in the joints . 
 According to the diagram above 5 and 6 are completely different units. To fit the bigger engine up against the HD6 they moved everything back - the HD5 and HD6 share the same rear housing but being the Budda was longer than a 2-71 things were changed in the power train 
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2019 at 1:52pm
Just to clarifyl; you are saying I still may see the wobble in that area yet it could be that bearing...? When you fit your yoke on to your clutch shaft it still had a lot of play...right? If you are correct I'm not sure if this would be better news or worse news..ConfusedSo, I wouldn't feel any movement(with my large channel locks on the end of the clutch shaft)in the clutch shaft if that bearing was bad? Is it straightforward in the manual of how to check it? Thx Coke

Edited by heron - 25 Oct 2019 at 5:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2019 at 3:37pm
Go to harbor freight tools and get yourself an indicator. Check the shaft coming off the clutch side first. Then just keep checking parts as you work your way back towards the transmission side untill find where your runout is comming from.

Once you know which part is worn or bent pull it out and find an independent machinist in your area. An old cranky guy is usualy best. Explain the problem and he will fix you right up. These guys are a gold mine to America and keep old stuff working for a resonable cost.

Look up a guy on Youtube named Keith Fenner. He has many videos on finding and fixing slop and vibration on shafts.

Here are some economical indicators up to the task.

https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=Indicator

Edited by Leop - 25 Oct 2019 at 3:41pm
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heron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2019 at 5:07pm
I'll look him up. I do agree with you as far as finding a "backyard" machinist. Does not seem to be very many in my area as I have been asking around. I'm not sure how any of those indicators would work to find discrepencies in the splines. I'll see if I can find some videos of how to measure out the shaft splines and the yoke splines. I know for a fact I cannot get to the back of the yoke to measure anything as the back is sealed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2019 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Coke-in-MN Coke-in-MN wrote:

Like I mentioned the yoke is a slip fit onto rear of clutch housing . But also with clutch disengaged seeif there is wobble of the shaft in the throw out bearing inner housing where the brass sleve holds the shaft .
 i got a different drive shaft off a parts machine I had and replaced mine as it was real lose on the clutch shaft . Never noticed a vibration in old one . Check your shaft to make sure it's not dented or bent to cause a imbalance or flexing in the joints . 
 According to the diagram above 5 and 6 are completely different units. To fit the bigger engine up against the HD6 they moved everything back - the HD5 and HD6 share the same rear housing but being the Budda was longer than a 2-71 things were changed in the power train 

Coke's post brought another thought to mind. along with shaft dents and bends, check the u-joint phasing.  Simply put if the u joints are +'s they should look like this ++, in a straight line, not +x, out of phase...Wink

Dial indicator , in use:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gemdozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2019 at 6:04pm
The shaft picture I can see oil in cover and this cluch should be dry and you could have a broken block sliding shifting yoke
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2019 at 11:17pm
I have measured the splines for fit two ways.

Fist way is to steel some of my sons playdogh and push it into the splines. Then take it off and carfully unroll it on a table. Then use calipers and eye ball it.

The other way is to use drill bits. Identify the spline by taking rough measurments and then looking on line, or ask in one of the machinists forums if someone can look it up for you. Then with the true dimensions use a drill bit that touches all three sides of the spline. That and some advice on which size to use will confirm if the splines are worn.

That said, I have never seen splines so worn as to cause a wobble like you describe without also seeing obviouse signs of wear on the splines themselves. They are surface hardened, and they prety much wear only after you break through that surface hardened metal. When that happens it's obviouse.

Phasing as mention above or some other issue seams more likely to me. You could try cutting up some shims from an aluminium can. Make sure you use at least four at 0, 90, 180 and then tap the yoke on with a mallet. If it goes on easy then you have a problem. If not at all then you are good. If hard but on then see if the wobble is gone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2019 at 11:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 10:36am
So there would be no wobble in the shaft with the clutch engaged...? The reason I say this is because since this machine has been in the Southern humidity the flywheel clutch will seize up after sitting. I start it up in gear and it breaks free.
As far as the fit what you are saying is its normal to have the yoke not fit right in the shaft but that inner bearing is exacerbating the wobble. But, when I grabbed the installed driveshaft up by the yoke I could move it quite a bit and that was with the clutch "engaged" or stuck in my case. So maybe the bearing could be bad which started this issue. I'll dig into the manual to see how to check that bearing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 10:41am
The oil is residual grease that's been pumped into that zirk for that bearing over the years. This machine has had the grease put to it. Probably too much. I'll know more once I open it up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 10:44am
Leop, Great idea with the play doh. I'll look into the dial indicator but without baselines I'm not sure how it will work. I'll make a video of the play although I'm not sure I can upload it.
Also, the joints are in phase.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 11:56am
Some maintiances for long term,as you are real close. I was adviced by a independent mechanic that had been rebuilding a number of HD 5 transmissions at the time to replace the top bearing in the front. If that bearing fails the balls go down into the gears,in most cases breaking the case. I was asking about linkage at the used parts place and they put me in touch with the mechanic,as had taken all the AC transmissions they had just to get cases.

I was working on the shifter linkage, and I remember it being a easy thing to get out. But WinkConfused that means nothing.LOL This vibration you have put extra ware on the bearing in my opinion,Wink but I don't claim to know much.LOL But Coke is saying brass bushing so I could be way Confused off again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2019 at 3:36pm
Heron you dont have a runout spec, but the 8ndicator will still tell you a lot. You can tell which part of the conection is the worse (more slop) and then you can focus your efforts there.

I also remember seeing runout speccs for the clutch output shaft and transmission input shaft somewhere in the service manual, so if you have one then you could check that out.
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