New Winco PTO Generator (HELP)

What's the top RPM of the Allis 170?

  Howdy Tbones 95,

   The rpm gauge goes to 2500 but I did get my 170 started yesterday but not fixed, and could run tractor up about 2200 rpm. Could adjust linkage on throttle to get more rpm BUT I am not interested running my tractors that high.

Thanks Kurzy

   Howdy All,

   I put the AC 170 back on the winco gen today. Ran winco at 62 hz at 1650 rpm on tractor. Ran them 6 led lights at 61 hz. But ran my 5 hp air compressor  alone, winco at 62 hz , when kick on compressor, gen went 56 hz then went to 60 hz holding but compressor did not sound like it was running good. so shut down compressor.

 Call winco , this time called right to ceo. Fellow I was working with fell off the grid so as I had problem! After talking to ceo he said running 60 hz and compressor not sounding good means something wrong with Winco. Sending out a Winco tech as soon as he gets free. 

  CEO was great to talk to.

   Will come back on if anyone interested.

  Kurzy

   Howdy DrAllis,

   Not to be a smart here but if all possible I will try to have someone video this whole thing we are going to be doing with this Winco tech!  Just talked to him and it will be about 2 weeks to get here.

 Thanks Kurzy

You mean like this?

 

Yeah, I'm officially lost. 

I agree with Doc, the observations noted in your posts are contradictory, hence, unfollowable to reasonable conclusion.

"when kick on compressor, gen went 56 hz then went to 60 hz holding but compressor did not sound like it was running good. so shut down compressor."

When the gen went down to 56hz, did the ENGINE SPEED STAY CONSTANT?

If so, your generator has a belt drive that is slipping, or you have a slipping coupling in the driveline.  Frequency is an absolute function of the synchronous generator's rotating speed.  1200rpm for a 6 pole, 1800rpm for a 4 pole, and 3600 for a 2-pole.  The reduction drive mounted to the alternator's input shaft translates the 540rpm PTO drive to one of those three speeds.

IF the engine IS slowing when you observe a change of frequency, the reason is simply because you do NOT have enough governor sensitivity to expect that level of response at a substantial current load.  Dropping to 56hz means your tractor's governor is not responding fast enough to PICK UP THE LOAD, which means your compressor motor is going through it's start up cycle for a much LONGER time than usual.   A motor's FLA rating identifies it's RUNNING load amperes, but it's STARTING AMPERES will usually be 6x or even 10x while it's starting up.  This is why you're seeing 56hz, and there's nothing wrong with the GENERATOR that causes it.  The tractor, regardless of how strong it may be, is not RESPONSIVE ENOUGH to pick up the load fast enough to absorb that start current.

An inability of the prime mover to respond to load changes, is the fault of either the prime mover and it's governor, or the expectations of the engineer responsible for selecting the prime mover for that application.  The #1 reason PTO generators fail to perform to satisfaction, is because they're coupled to a tractor, not an engine intended for use with a synchronous generator.  The #1 reason why PTO generators SUCCEED, is because they're coupled to a tractor with a very sensitive governor, carefully babysat by a very knowledgable operator, and under a constant, steady load.

What you really need, is a dedicated generating plant, with a properly integrated engine, governance system, matched to an appropriate generator head.

There's no bloating of technology in his PTO gen, I'm certain it is bare-minimum basic.  The PTO drive is unfortunately dependant upon the tractor's governance, and they're simply not a 'low-droop' governing application.

Using a for-purpose generator, with proper governance is the most effective solution, and it need not be overcomplicated... my generator shed has three, they will all hand-crank start.

It appears that he has the ability to read frequency, as he's identified it to 1hz.  I'm guessing he's using a modern multimeter for that circumstance, but he may be reading from an analog gauge on the WINCO, or it may have a digital readout on the WINCO.  If it were older, I would expect a vibrating-reed frequency indication, which is going to be satisfactorily accurate. 

No case of indication will compensate for a lack of droop response of the prime mover.  It's strictly a function of the governance design and condition.  It very well may be that if the tractor had a good carb rebuild (new bushings in the throttle plate, no vac leaks, etc., ) and the carb linkage was supple, yet without slop, and the governor same, it might hold to a tighter setpoint, but it's a VARIABLE governor, which means it is not optimized for any one point in it's control range, it's simply intended to keep the engine running at whatever speed it was selected.  In order for this to happen, it simply cannot be super-tight in droop, lest it will hunt at all but one particular speed.

Unless there is a mechanical coupling that is slipping, WINCO will identify that the input shaft speed is improperly maintained for operation.  Applying a constant, heavy load, and then setting the tractor's throttle control for 60hz is absolutely necessary, and when the load is removed, frequency will come up some, until the governor retires to a limiting state.  Depending on how the tractor's governor at that point is, it may be anywhere from 63 to 67hz or so... and I wouldn't be surprised if it goes higher.  Nature of the beast.

The MEP-003a was primarily a Libby contract, they used an air-cooled Onan 4cyl diesel generating plant... a wonderful little beastie, using a 12-wire alternating head, it'll operate single AND three phase, 10kw continuous duty under the worst fuel, highest altitude, lowest and highest temperatures, and most ugly situations possible.

They ran a respectable droop... no load is commonly around 62 hz, and droop holds it at 58.5 at full rated load.

They were excellent general purpose electric plants...

They DID have one tactical weakness-  they were excellent at drawing the enemy... they were pretty loud...