Howdy,

I purchased a brand new Winco 27 Pto kw generator. Problem first time starting up! Running a AC 170 gas at 1500 rpm puts the generator  right at the 60 herzt they want. With no other load I turn on 6- 150 watt led lights in shed. The generator goes down to about 57 kw and stays their till I shut the lights off , meter goes back up to 60 kw then. Then I try also my 5 hp air compressor and you can tell the 5 hp motor has hard time starting up but does and then runs. After talking to winco they say the something wrong with the tractor! Tractor got 2700 hours on and runs like a top. I use it on a 6 foot brush hog with no problems. The tractor is already running 3/4 thottle just to keep generator at 60 herzt with no load. I never run my tractors pass 3/4 throttle. Generator rated at 54 hp so plenty of power. Winco says this generator should run house and shop. It cant keep 60 herzt with 6 lights on. Help

Thanks Kurzy

  Howdy Calvin,

  How do you keep the governor very responsive? The governor does not kick in when generator goes down for more power. So  load is not big enough for gov to kick in?

Thanks Kurzy

your tractor motor is RATED at 1800 rpm.

  Howdy Steve,

  Winco does not want me to run this generator much over 60 hertz for it will wear out early. Yes I see the 1800 rpm rated, so I will try 1800 rpm and see how that works. I always believe in more hp that needed but in this case I am right at rated tractor hp. I had a AC generator, 30 kw surge with 20 continuous and run with a AC D15 just at a fast idle. Wish I still had but Winco says that old AC wasnt clean, green energy! So your new appliances would not like the old AC!

Thanks Kurzy

  Howdy KJCHRIS,

  Your super H has less power then this AC 170 and run all that. You must of had it petty much full throttle? I will try more rpm. Just dont like running tractors that high rpm for long time.

Thanks Kurzy

You can set the tractor at 1600 rpm while you load up the generator... then increase the speed to get back  to 61-62 Hz as mentioned... that is a good procedure.

  Howdy Steve,

  I am going run the rpm up and see what happens. I will post back here with results.

  Everyone Thanks very much.

  Anyone got a AC 185 Diesel for sale?

  Kurzy

 IF wanted to really make it beller kick on the dryer fan on small bin 7.5 hp motor. I've had a 180 D on it and when run the house n farm then turn on the dryer motor on big bin it's 12.5 hp, that load makes the 180 D talk just have to give a bit more throttle to keep the meter happy. We didn't have anything on computer so no worry about clean electricity. Didn't hurt appliances or color TV. 

Mines rated 100A WinCo on 540 pto, it was used when I got itduring the 80's Farm Crisis. Modified its cart to hold my Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC welder and cutting torch, el-cheapo portable welder. Built cattle yard fences for a neighbor with it once. 

     If I have gas for the CA, my house will not freeze in the winter and my freezers will stay cold in the summer...(and I will have gas)I don't like being dependent on anyone that don't really care...

    If at some point, if the CA can't answer the call I could put the U or UC on the Winco

Leon B Mo

  Howdy All,

  I got to use a John Deere 4040 , 90 hp yesterday. Took 22 rpm to run 60 hz no load. Started loading with them 6 led lights and then 5 hp air compressor. Generator when down just a bit but held it. 5 hp compressor started just great even with them 6 lights on. I then did take the generator up a bit to see if hold at 60 hz and it did! I was a happy camper to see this winco finally do its job. Now I will go back to running my AC170 with higher rpm. But I have to tell you the 4040 is used for grinding feed and he uses only 1800 rpm. But winco states that this unit only needs 54 hp to run. I think their a little short on hp requirements! Will get back to all when I put my AC 170 back on with roaring rpms.

Thanks Kurzy

  Howdy Steve,

  I like the idea of my old AC generator 35 surge with 20 continuous with AC D15 running only at fast idle. But not green power and limited power. If I have to run my AC 170 at that high rpm , I'll switchover t o self start units with its own engine. So then this Winco is for sale.

Thanks Kurzy

    Howdy Brian,

    I like what your saying! Makes more sense to me to have automatic start and shut off. I'll saved my AC 170 for retirement. So I couldnt sell you my Winco?

Thanks Much Kurzy

A tractor's governor, and and the governor of an engine dedicated to running a generator, are totally different in their setup.

A tractor exhibits much more 'droop', while a generator exhibits very little.

When running a PTO generator, the engine speed is entirely based on the generator's design (rotor speed is a function of output frequency-  at 60hz, 2 pole = 3600rpm, 4 pole = 1800rpm, 6 pole = 1200rpm, 8 pole = 900rpm, etc.).

On a PTO generator, the generator is driven by a gear or belt reduction, so that the PTO rpm (usually 540 or 1000rpm) matches that required by the ROTOR's required speed.

What this means, is that any change in LOAD which reduces the rotor's SPEED (bringing frequency down) occurs until such point that the GOVERNOR reaches it's DROOP POINT (where it starts opening the throttle), and then, the governor's GAIN function (the amount it opens in proportion to an increase in load) comes into effect.

The short answer, is as everyone else has noted:  Dial it in at no load to some point slightly ABOVE 60hz... and as the load comes on, the governor will reach droop, and then start increasing fuel/air, frequency will 'level off' at an appropriate point.

A generator-specific setup is usually direct-drive, with the prime mover running 3600, 1800, 1200, or 900rpm in direct coupling to the rotor.  The governor is therefore set, at droop point, of the indicated rpm, to obtain proper line frequency.

Aside note-  a combine governor is similar, in that it exhibits much less droop than a tractor governor.

There's a half-dozen really good reasons why a tractor governor has more droop... and a dozen reasons why a generator governor has LESS.  There's also reasons why the combine governor is the way IT is... and I should probably write a book on it someday, but not here, and not now...

  Neither tractor governor opened up. AC 170 or John Deere 4040. Had to increase speed by throttle on both tractors.

Thanks Kurzy

That's because you didn't have enough load on it to affect sufficient droop for the governor to respond.

There are three basic 'modes' of governance:

Constant fixed speed,Constant speed with Low Idle,Full Adjustable speed

  Like always this site is amazing with knowledge! Thanks you all.

  

    I many not and dont understand this all but one last question please.

   

   I understand my AC170  does not have enough power to run this Winco 27 kw, So what Allis tractor  above my hp would be advisable?

   Thanks Kurzy

You said you had problems with 6 bulbs or a 5 HP motor.. That should NOT happen if you have proper engine speed... just increase to 1600- 1800 as needed.

27kw is about 36HP, so I'd think you need 40 PTO HP, to run it full out.

memeber that's PTO HP NOT engine HP.

ok tractor data says you've got 50+ PTO HP so MORE than enough to run the genny !!!

I suspect there's something wrong with the genny.

As long as it says '60 Hz +-1 or 2, you should be able to light a zillion light, power  skillsaws, etc. without ANY problems.

---- You need a lot MORE than that for INPUT to get the 27,000 OUTPUT... The generator is not 100% efficient ... The COMPANY says it 54 HP INPUT.. I take their word for that.

27,000 WATTS / 240 VOLTS = 112 AMPS output

again, the generator could be OVERISZED... If you only wanted to output 60-70 amps then you have plenty of HP on a 170..... but maybe not at 1500 rpm.

Gee, I wish I has said something like that!

While you may need 54HP to get the FULL rated output of the genny, you certainly don't need that to get enough electrons to power a few lights or a skillsaw. No different than running a tractor at low speed to drag a cultivator to lightly deweed a soft soiled field. There's no way you'd run the tractor at full engine speed,you create enough engine HP for the load (work) it's doing.

The genny MFR should have graphs of input HP vs output power 'somewhere'. I KNOW I can get that for every Delco alternator....

Should give some idea of kW to engine hp ratio. 

Last year I installed a 35kw Onan genset powered by a propane fueled Ford 300 engine

for my house/shop. Has the automatic transfer switch etc.  Works well. Have the no load HZ dialed in on the high side.

Two totally different applications. As the alternator ultimately puts out ~12 volts, as long as the alternator is running fast enough to be able to generate something greater than about 14 to 16 volts the system is happy. With generator that is powering AC loads, the generator has to be kept at a speed that will supply a constant 60Hz. In a power plant regardless of load, the generator always turns at the same RPM, to maintain a constant 60Hz.

The 'car alternator' is an AC generator, 3 phase actually, and I can spin it at 60 Hz all day long to power 60Hz  equipment, however as the LOAD demand goes up ( more light bulbs...) you'll need to increase/decrease the field windings to get the amps out of it. When the demand for more power increase, it 'loads down' the prime mover, so IT needs to supply more power( torque) to maintain the correct RPM for the 60Hz power.

One example..... car doing 60 up a steep hill. To maintain a constant speed, YOU have to put the pedal to the metal, to get more POWER out of the engine to maintain that 60MPH. The reason for 60Hz is that most power equipment have primary transformers designed for 60Hz . The original powerplants at Niagara Falls were 25Hz, LOTS of iron and copper were needed. They were converted to 60Hz ,late 40s-early 50s,reduced the iron and copper. I still have the wall clock Hamilton Hydro gave customers when the conversion took place. Aircraft power was generally 400Hz and some 1000Hz, again less iron/copper = less weight, good for airplanes ! Power supplies for computers and stuff are now 20KHz or more(some 1MHz),again, reducing iron/copper for lighter,cheaper equipment.So it's not the speed that determines the HP needed to spin the genny, it's the LOAD.

going back to the OP....

I downloaded the winco datasheet to see the 'numbers'...

your test load is 6 LEDs x 150watts each = 900 watts of LEDs, OK make it an even 1KW

winco says 2HP per KW, so.... old school math says 2HP x 1KW = 2HP. needed.

As long as the genny's spinning at 60Hz, those LEDS should be bright ! heck you're using less than 3.5% of the rated capacity on the genny ( 900 Watts out of 27,000 ),there's no way the genny ,let alone tractor would even KNOW them LEDs were connected and on.

as a test, grab a skilsaw see if it works OK, they use less than 12 amps, well within the 20A spec of the receptacle.

    Howdy  jaymiller,

   Your math is very right! I thought that was petty sad too for  a new 27kw Winco! This week I start working with Winco factory from Minnesota. That was their first blame was my tractor! So lets see how this goes??

   Kurzy

As long as the meter on the genny say 60 +-2, tractor RPM/ PTO RPM is OK. Normal household power varies that much, and I'm just 40 miles+- from Niagara Falls.

If the tractor can run a bushhog it's got MORE then enough 'guts' to spin the genny to lightup a few LEDs...

   Howdy,

  First you need a tractor that runs so you can run the Winco. MY Tractor stop starting right after I ran the Winco for the first time. That is way I bought in the John 4040. Even at 90 hp with 2200 rpm  at 60 hertz make  them 6 lights make the needle drop!

  But I live in Montana, internet goes out so often I can not complete a sentence on here many times. Not to mention power goes off so often here too! That is way I got , I hoped a back up power. Not working so good.

 This is a great site , with more great different opinions. 

 Thanks Kurzy

   

As others already noted, the 4040 had no problem doing the job, because it is a diesel, and the diesel's injection pump is much more sensitive and reactive than a throttle plate in the airstream.  Fact of fluid dynamics... gases are compressible, liquids are not, and as a result, the diesel's fuel-metering will naturally be more responsive than the spark-ignition's throttle action.

The load curve of a generator is NOT LINEAR.  You don't start it up at no load, and have the horsepower requirement as a nice, consistent increase in proportion to load...  because...

The generating plant consists of TWO GENERATORS IN ONE.  The main alternator generates your AC output.  The EXCITER generates FIELD CURRENT (DC), which is metered by the voltage regulator, to increase excitation current to keep voltage stable.

The loading sequence that results, is as follows:

The prime mover brings the alternator up to slightly above synchronous speed... so... 61.5hz or so... for a 4-pole gennie, that's exactly 1845rpm, but 1850 is pretty common.

There's a little residual magnetism inside the iron frame of the main alternator, and some in the frame of the exciter.  The exciter thus starts to generate a little DC output voltage, and the main alternator generates a few volts of AC output.  Once the DC output appears, the voltage regulator determines the system voltage as way low, it bypasses all field series resistance, allowing ALL exciter current to flow through the alternator's field windings, which feeds the reactive magnetic field in the exciter's stator, and causes DC output to jump to 'full load' state for a fraction of a second.  This causes the engine load to jump up a bit (you'll hear the gennie 'grunt' for a moment, as the application of a DC load DOES create torque load.  The alternator's field winding is usually nothing to smirk at, my 35kw Kato's exciter output is about 20A at around 30vdc at full load.

Once the DC field has built up, the main alternator's AC voltage jumps skyward, the voltage REGULATOR reacts by un-shorting bypass terminals that add series resistance to the FIELD winding.  This reduces the excitation current flow to alternator field, to bring AC voltage back into proper range.  Once voltage falls, the regulator recovers, bringing voltage back UP into range.  This oscillation can cause instability... but more on that later.

When the exciter load comes on, the gennie shaft speed is dragged down, which as a load on the engine... slowing it down.  When the GOVERNOR finally figures out that the engine is under load (DROOP has occurred), the governor linkage slack is drawn or pulled out, and the engine throttle (or fuel rack) is allowed to increase to bring the engine back up to speed.

Without having ANY load on the generator, there is STILL a generating load on the engine.  Creating that excitation consumes shaft horsepower.  Spinning the fan INSIDE the generator consumes energy.

Once running, a small load doesn't generate any significant necessity for additional shaft horsepower, BUT... when the small load causes a little voltage drop, then the VOLTAGE REG starts allowing more current flow, which causes the original shaft HP demand to go up, not just from the load, but the power demand of the EXCITER trying to MATCH the load.

So before you even plug IN an appliance, or a lamp, the generator needs shaft HP.  When you apply more load, the governor AND regulator will be responding... governor to shaft speed, and regulator to output voltage... and how ONE of those responds to the load, directly impacts the OTHER's job.

The problem here is not available horsepower... it is strictly RPM.  No load at 1845... full load at 1800.

Yes, Les, a PID loop and electronic actuator WOULD, and DOES help, except with complexit anyway.

My 35kw Consolodated has BOTH a Hoof-Pierce mechanical governor, AND a Woodward APECS electronic PID controller.  Since the Hercules JXLD has a magneto with impulser, and propane fueling, there's no reason I can't start it from totally dead with the crank...  but if it's totally dead (dead battery) then an electronic PID system will NOT be able to control the generator for a while 'till it's actually RUNNING...  but the Hoof-Pierce CAN.

The H-F is set to high-idle the engine at 1240, and exhibits about 70rpm of droop (1170rpm)... that's 58.5hz.

What  I did, was set up the control panel circuitry to assume a 'dead' state that allows the prime mover to be hand started, and once running, the exciter's output brings up enough AC field to provide 12vdc through a transformer/linear supply.  The supply capacitors now charged, powers the APECs controller, which boots up, and starts counting teeth on the generator's ring gear, to get a speed signal.  The APECS then dials up or down the throttle to put it between 59.5 and 60.4.

In the event that the APECS fails, the Hoof-Pierce will allow the unit to run and generate, just with a wider freq range and not as much stability as the PID provides

Ok, silly question.on an 'old skool' mechanical genny isn't the frequency meter (----60Hz-----) really just reading the PTO RPM , so that you set tractor throttle up or down until the needle reads 60 ?

I know there's some gearing involved, it may actually read the genny rotor shaft, but effectively , it's 'reading' the PTO shaft .

If this is correct, then once the tractor's RPM is set to get '60' on the meter, that's it...no further 'adjustments'.

I still can figure out how, as he can swing a bushhog(to me a high HP load), why the genny can't light 1000 W of LEDs.

dang 7AM here and dark...I could USE that genny, sniff, sniff...Fall is really here.

Jay

    Howdy Gentleman,

   I have to keep facts straight so it is.

    Both tractors NEVER lugged down , neither did any governor kick in.  In my book both tractors were just roaring.

    John Deere 4040 ran rpm at 2200 to run no load at 60 HZ.

    Allis 170  ran 1500 maybe 1600 the most to run no load at 60 HZ

    

    So I took the 4040 up to 62 HZ then loaded and did hold 60 HZ.

    

     I was surprised the 4040 needed 2200 rpm to run 60 HZ no load! Then my AC 170 quit starting after running the Winco. So I am working on that and will put back on Winco and run 62 HZ and see what happens.

  Thanks for all info

   Kurzy

What's the top RPM of the Allis 170?

  Howdy Tbones 95,

   The rpm gauge goes to 2500 but I did get my 170 started yesterday but not fixed, and could run tractor up about 2200 rpm. Could adjust linkage on throttle to get more rpm BUT I am not interested running my tractors that high.

Thanks Kurzy

Thank you.  I "forget" that there's that much RPM over rated PTO speed.  I have some tractors that aren't that way....but the 7045 goes a good ways over as well.  

   Howdy All,

   I put the AC 170 back on the winco gen today. Ran winco at 62 hz at 1650 rpm on tractor. Ran them 6 led lights at 61 hz. But ran my 5 hp air compressor  alone, winco at 62 hz , when kick on compressor, gen went 56 hz then went to 60 hz holding but compressor did not sound like it was running good. so shut down compressor.

 Call winco , this time called right to ceo. Fellow I was working with fell off the grid so as I had problem! After talking to ceo he said running 60 hz and compressor not sounding good means something wrong with Winco. Sending out a Winco tech as soon as he gets free. 

  CEO was great to talk to.

   Will come back on if anyone interested.

  Kurzy

   Howdy DrAllis,

   Not to be a smart here but if all possible I will try to have someone video this whole thing we are going to be doing with this Winco tech!  Just talked to him and it will be about 2 weeks to get here.

 Thanks Kurzy

      Howdy,

      When I really need this Winco to work I dont want to stand there and bump up and down the throttle as it needs more rpm when its already running 62 hz. ! Load the Winco empty at 62 hz and let it do its job like the people at winco said it would. They advised this 27 kw with this tractor for what I am going to use it for here. They dont want more then 62 hz. So far its not working. Wish I had my old Allis 20 kw back. It worked! It ran more things at just a fast idle, holding 60 hz all the time, on a D15 then this 27 kw .

Kurzy

   Howdy,

   Thats way I bought in the John Deere 4040. Same thing winco running at 62 hz no load and needle on winco went down too just to run 6 lights, only 950 watts! That needle should of never moved with that small only 950 watts. Down lower yet on compressor. Diesel and 90 HP!!

 Kurzy

     Howdy DrAllis,

 

     Sounds like both are at the end of the throttle! My tractor too   LOL

    Kurzy

You mean like this?

 

Yeah, I'm officially lost. 

I agree with Doc, the observations noted in your posts are contradictory, hence, unfollowable to reasonable conclusion.

"when kick on compressor, gen went 56 hz then went to 60 hz holding but compressor did not sound like it was running good. so shut down compressor."

When the gen went down to 56hz, did the ENGINE SPEED STAY CONSTANT?

If so, your generator has a belt drive that is slipping, or you have a slipping coupling in the driveline.  Frequency is an absolute function of the synchronous generator's rotating speed.  1200rpm for a 6 pole, 1800rpm for a 4 pole, and 3600 for a 2-pole.  The reduction drive mounted to the alternator's input shaft translates the 540rpm PTO drive to one of those three speeds.

IF the engine IS slowing when you observe a change of frequency, the reason is simply because you do NOT have enough governor sensitivity to expect that level of response at a substantial current load.  Dropping to 56hz means your tractor's governor is not responding fast enough to PICK UP THE LOAD, which means your compressor motor is going through it's start up cycle for a much LONGER time than usual.   A motor's FLA rating identifies it's RUNNING load amperes, but it's STARTING AMPERES will usually be 6x or even 10x while it's starting up.  This is why you're seeing 56hz, and there's nothing wrong with the GENERATOR that causes it.  The tractor, regardless of how strong it may be, is not RESPONSIVE ENOUGH to pick up the load fast enough to absorb that start current.

An inability of the prime mover to respond to load changes, is the fault of either the prime mover and it's governor, or the expectations of the engineer responsible for selecting the prime mover for that application.  The #1 reason PTO generators fail to perform to satisfaction, is because they're coupled to a tractor, not an engine intended for use with a synchronous generator.  The #1 reason why PTO generators SUCCEED, is because they're coupled to a tractor with a very sensitive governor, carefully babysat by a very knowledgable operator, and under a constant, steady load.

What you really need, is a dedicated generating plant, with a properly integrated engine, governance system, matched to an appropriate generator head.

#1.5 2KW load shouldn't bother that tractor or generator in the slightest. Just make sure it's keeping the Frequency up. 

There's no bloating of technology in his PTO gen, I'm certain it is bare-minimum basic.  The PTO drive is unfortunately dependant upon the tractor's governance, and they're simply not a 'low-droop' governing application.

Using a for-purpose generator, with proper governance is the most effective solution, and it need not be overcomplicated... my generator shed has three, they will all hand-crank start.

It appears that he has the ability to read frequency, as he's identified it to 1hz.  I'm guessing he's using a modern multimeter for that circumstance, but he may be reading from an analog gauge on the WINCO, or it may have a digital readout on the WINCO.  If it were older, I would expect a vibrating-reed frequency indication, which is going to be satisfactorily accurate. 

No case of indication will compensate for a lack of droop response of the prime mover.  It's strictly a function of the governance design and condition.  It very well may be that if the tractor had a good carb rebuild (new bushings in the throttle plate, no vac leaks, etc., ) and the carb linkage was supple, yet without slop, and the governor same, it might hold to a tighter setpoint, but it's a VARIABLE governor, which means it is not optimized for any one point in it's control range, it's simply intended to keep the engine running at whatever speed it was selected.  In order for this to happen, it simply cannot be super-tight in droop, lest it will hunt at all but one particular speed.

Unless there is a mechanical coupling that is slipping, WINCO will identify that the input shaft speed is improperly maintained for operation.  Applying a constant, heavy load, and then setting the tractor's throttle control for 60hz is absolutely necessary, and when the load is removed, frequency will come up some, until the governor retires to a limiting state.  Depending on how the tractor's governor at that point is, it may be anywhere from 63 to 67hz or so... and I wouldn't be surprised if it goes higher.  Nature of the beast.

Buy a Kill-A-Watt meter to check frequency and voltage. Modern DMM's also can check that. The kill a watt will also check load (watts being drawn through it).

540 PTO rpm is supposed to be @1624 engine rpm, according to tractor data tests.

So if  generator meter indicates 60HZ while tach shows 1500 engine rpm, something is not accurate. I would suspect tractor's tachometer. Please verify with DMM or the kill a watt device.

The Doc suggested a way to make the governor more sensitive. Also ask Winco if they have a write up or advice on tractor governors. Appreciate it if you share that info.

Which model Winco do you have?

The last generator I worked with was the military MEP-003a. Built like a tank.

10KW rating. 4cyl air cooled diesel, 160 cubic inches. On a skid, 1250 pounds.

I think it sagged 2 or 3 hertz from the load. Had a voltage trim knob.

The MEP-003a was primarily a Libby contract, they used an air-cooled Onan 4cyl diesel generating plant... a wonderful little beastie, using a 12-wire alternating head, it'll operate single AND three phase, 10kw continuous duty under the worst fuel, highest altitude, lowest and highest temperatures, and most ugly situations possible.

They ran a respectable droop... no load is commonly around 62 hz, and droop holds it at 58.5 at full rated load.

They were excellent general purpose electric plants...

They DID have one tactical weakness-  they were excellent at drawing the enemy... they were pretty loud...