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New Winco PTO Generator (HELP) |
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Tbone95
Orange Level Access Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 11544 |
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Given (I would think???) that the 60 Hz is achieved very close to 540 PTO RPM, I am more surprised the Allils puts that out at 15-1600 than I am that the Deere is running 2200.
What's the top RPM of the Allis 170?
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20191 |
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Basically the same as a D-17......1650 RPM eng speed is 540 PTO speed...….2,000 RPM high idle no-load. The D-17 was rated at 1650 at 53 HP. The 170 was rated at 1800 RPM at 54 HP, but when slowed down to 1650 it only had 51 HP. Big hydraulic pumps take HP to operate.
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Kurzy
Orange Level Joined: 02 Nov 2009 Location: WSS, Montana Points: 808 |
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Howdy Tbones 95, The rpm gauge goes to 2500 but I did get my 170 started yesterday but not fixed, and could run tractor up about 2200 rpm. Could adjust linkage on throttle to get more rpm BUT I am not interested running my tractors that high. Thanks Kurzy
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TramwayGuy
Orange Level Access Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Location: Northern NY Points: 11442 |
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Two comments:
A). If you don’t have a working frequency meter, you can use an old-style plug-in clock with a sweep second hand in conjunction with a stopwatch (or cell phone timer). The frequency is correct when the clock’s second hand takes exactly 60 seconds to go around. B). Engine speed means nothing to the PTO alternator. What does matter is the speed input to the alternator’s gearbox(or pulley setup). PTO gearing varies among brands and even models of tractors. Frequency is the important thing. |
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20191 |
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I'm thinking the governor link rod needs to be shortened a bit to put the governor adjustment into better synch. This would slow the claimed high idle of 2,200 RPM down to closer to 2050 or 2100 RPM. This adjustment would make the governor more "lively"/sensitive to action. Pulling down on the link rod in the center and bending it down 1" would make a difference, but I don't want to get anyone confused on what I'm suggesting. This is an old A-C technicians field fix for a dead governor.
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Tbone95
Orange Level Access Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 11544 |
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Thank you. I "forget" that there's that much RPM over rated PTO speed. I have some tractors that aren't that way....but the 7045 goes a good ways over as well.
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Kurzy
Orange Level Joined: 02 Nov 2009 Location: WSS, Montana Points: 808 |
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Howdy All, I put the AC 170 back on the winco gen today. Ran winco at 62 hz at 1650 rpm on tractor. Ran them 6 led lights at 61 hz. But ran my 5 hp air compressor alone, winco at 62 hz , when kick on compressor, gen went 56 hz then went to 60 hz holding but compressor did not sound like it was running good. so shut down compressor. Call winco , this time called right to ceo. Fellow I was working with fell off the grid so as I had problem! After talking to ceo he said running 60 hz and compressor not sounding good means something wrong with Winco. Sending out a Winco tech as soon as he gets free. CEO was great to talk to. Will come back on if anyone interested. Kurzy
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80225 |
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YEP... come back and tell us what he says!!........ would be interested !
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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bigal121892
Orange Level Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Location: Nebraska Points: 800 |
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Please let us know, curious as to what they find.
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20191 |
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Yeah, well I think when the compressor wasn't at 62 Hz, I would have bumped up the throttle another 50 RPM because I'll bet it wasn't 1650 RPM at that point.
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Kurzy
Orange Level Joined: 02 Nov 2009 Location: WSS, Montana Points: 808 |
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Howdy DrAllis, Not to be a smart here but if all possible I will try to have someone video this whole thing we are going to be doing with this Winco tech! Just talked to him and it will be about 2 weeks to get here. Thanks Kurzy
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20191 |
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Why don't you just try my theory and give it 50 more RPM as you get it under that certain load ?? Not hard to do at all and would answer the question....fixed or not fixed.
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Ed (Ont)
Orange Level Joined: 08 Nov 2009 Location: New Lowell, Ont Points: 1257 |
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Yup. Would sure be easy to try that!!
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Kurzy
Orange Level Joined: 02 Nov 2009 Location: WSS, Montana Points: 808 |
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Howdy, When I really need this Winco to work I dont want to stand there and bump up and down the throttle as it needs more rpm when its already running 62 hz. ! Load the Winco empty at 62 hz and let it do its job like the people at winco said it would. They advised this 27 kw with this tractor for what I am going to use it for here. They dont want more then 62 hz. So far its not working. Wish I had my old Allis 20 kw back. It worked! It ran more things at just a fast idle, holding 60 hz all the time, on a D15 then this 27 kw . Kurzy
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20191 |
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You're missing the whole point !!! If your governor on the 170 isn't working as it should be, that could be causing your problem !! If bumping up the throttle a little while you keep increasing the electrical load on the generator solves the problem, it must be a tractor governor issue !!
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Kurzy
Orange Level Joined: 02 Nov 2009 Location: WSS, Montana Points: 808 |
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Howdy, Thats way I bought in the John Deere 4040. Same thing winco running at 62 hz no load and needle on winco went down too just to run 6 lights, only 950 watts! That needle should of never moved with that small only 950 watts. Down lower yet on compressor. Diesel and 90 HP!! Kurzy
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20191 |
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OK. I'm too stupid to follow your posts. On Sept 23 you made it sound like the 4040 Deere ran 6 lights AND the air compressor just fine. Forget it. Get your Winco fixed.
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Kurzy
Orange Level Joined: 02 Nov 2009 Location: WSS, Montana Points: 808 |
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Howdy DrAllis, Sounds like both are at the end of the throttle! My tractor too LOL Kurzy
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Tbone95
Orange Level Access Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 11544 |
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You mean like this? I got to use a John Deere 4040 , 90 hp yesterday. Took 22 rpm to run 60 hz no load. Started loading with them 6 led lights and then 5 hp air compressor. Generator when down just a bit but held it. 5 hp compressor started just great even with them 6 lights on. I then did take the generator up a bit to see if hold at 60 hz and it did! I was a happy camper to see this winco finally do its job Yeah, I'm officially lost.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80225 |
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I think it is BEST to get the TECH and get some testing done.. Then will have all the data to make a determination.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5735 |
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I agree with Doc, the observations noted in your posts are contradictory, hence, unfollowable to reasonable conclusion. "when kick on compressor, gen went 56 hz then went to 60 hz holding
but compressor did not sound like it was running good. so shut down
compressor." When the gen went down to 56hz, did the ENGINE SPEED STAY CONSTANT? If so, your generator has a belt drive that is slipping, or you have a slipping coupling in the driveline. Frequency is an absolute function of the synchronous generator's rotating speed. 1200rpm for a 6 pole, 1800rpm for a 4 pole, and 3600 for a 2-pole. The reduction drive mounted to the alternator's input shaft translates the 540rpm PTO drive to one of those three speeds. IF the engine IS slowing when you observe a change of frequency, the reason is simply because you do NOT have enough governor sensitivity to expect that level of response at a substantial current load. Dropping to 56hz means your tractor's governor is not responding fast enough to PICK UP THE LOAD, which means your compressor motor is going through it's start up cycle for a much LONGER time than usual. A motor's FLA rating identifies it's RUNNING load amperes, but it's STARTING AMPERES will usually be 6x or even 10x while it's starting up. This is why you're seeing 56hz, and there's nothing wrong with the GENERATOR that causes it. The tractor, regardless of how strong it may be, is not RESPONSIVE ENOUGH to pick up the load fast enough to absorb that start current. An inability of the prime mover to respond to load changes, is the fault of either the prime mover and it's governor, or the expectations of the engineer responsible for selecting the prime mover for that application. The #1 reason PTO generators fail to perform to satisfaction, is because they're coupled to a tractor, not an engine intended for use with a synchronous generator. The #1 reason why PTO generators SUCCEED, is because they're coupled to a tractor with a very sensitive governor, carefully babysat by a very knowledgable operator, and under a constant, steady load. What you really need, is a dedicated generating plant, with a properly integrated engine, governance system, matched to an appropriate generator head. |
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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corbinstein
Orange Level Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 796 |
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#1. The term Droop is correct as stated above. Just run a little faster might help.
#1.5 2KW load shouldn't bother that tractor or generator in the slightest. Just make sure it's keeping the Frequency up. #2. Me personally, I can't stand modern equipment. Modern seems to break faster (packed with electronics). You will miss the old genny more and more. #3. Most DECENT multimeters will have a HZ (frequency) function if needed. Edited by corbinstein - 01 Oct 2021 at 7:08am |
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5735 |
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There's no bloating of technology in his PTO gen, I'm certain it is bare-minimum basic. The PTO drive is unfortunately dependant upon the tractor's governance, and they're simply not a 'low-droop' governing application. Using a for-purpose generator, with proper governance is the most effective solution, and it need not be overcomplicated... my generator shed has three, they will all hand-crank start. It appears that he has the ability to read frequency, as he's identified it to 1hz. I'm guessing he's using a modern multimeter for that circumstance, but he may be reading from an analog gauge on the WINCO, or it may have a digital readout on the WINCO. If it were older, I would expect a vibrating-reed frequency indication, which is going to be satisfactorily accurate. No case of indication will compensate for a lack of droop response of the prime mover. It's strictly a function of the governance design and condition. It very well may be that if the tractor had a good carb rebuild (new bushings in the throttle plate, no vac leaks, etc., ) and the carb linkage was supple, yet without slop, and the governor same, it might hold to a tighter setpoint, but it's a VARIABLE governor, which means it is not optimized for any one point in it's control range, it's simply intended to keep the engine running at whatever speed it was selected. In order for this to happen, it simply cannot be super-tight in droop, lest it will hunt at all but one particular speed. Unless there is a mechanical coupling that is slipping, WINCO will identify that the input shaft speed is improperly maintained for operation. Applying a constant, heavy load, and then setting the tractor's throttle control for 60hz is absolutely necessary, and when the load is removed, frequency will come up some, until the governor retires to a limiting state. Depending on how the tractor's governor at that point is, it may be anywhere from 63 to 67hz or so... and I wouldn't be surprised if it goes higher. Nature of the beast.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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BrianC
Orange Level Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1617 |
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Buy a Kill-A-Watt meter to check frequency and voltage. Modern DMM's also can check that. The kill a watt will also check load (watts being drawn through it). 540 PTO rpm is supposed to be @1624 engine rpm, according to tractor data tests. So if generator meter indicates 60HZ while tach shows 1500 engine rpm, something is not accurate. I would suspect tractor's tachometer. Please verify with DMM or the kill a watt device. The Doc suggested a way to make the governor more sensitive. Also ask Winco if they have a write up or advice on tractor governors. Appreciate it if you share that info. Which model Winco do you have? The last generator I worked with was the military MEP-003a. Built like a tank. 10KW rating. 4cyl air cooled diesel, 160 cubic inches. On a skid, 1250 pounds. I think it sagged 2 or 3 hertz from the load. Had a voltage trim knob.
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5735 |
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The MEP-003a was primarily a Libby contract, they used an air-cooled Onan 4cyl diesel generating plant... a wonderful little beastie, using a 12-wire alternating head, it'll operate single AND three phase, 10kw continuous duty under the worst fuel, highest altitude, lowest and highest temperatures, and most ugly situations possible. They ran a respectable droop... no load is commonly around 62 hz, and droop holds it at 58.5 at full rated load. They were excellent general purpose electric plants... They DID have one tactical weakness- they were excellent at drawing the enemy... they were pretty loud...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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bigal121892
Orange Level Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Location: Nebraska Points: 800 |
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I wonder how this one ever turned out?
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20191 |
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Did we get the Winco PTO generator fixed ??
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