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KW Project |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77715 |
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rotate by hand would be one thing.. Spinning freely like that, sure dont look good..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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BPM75
Orange Level Joined: 11 Jun 2011 Location: Greenup IL Points: 1050 |
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Exactly! Especially if there's still some oil in the pump, even if there wasn't still shouldn't do that. So are the gear shafts a little loose in the pump housings or maybe too much lash on gears? I'm just curious I guess. I'd be wanting to take pump apart and see what was going on but they may not take it back if you did, depends on how well you know the place you got it from Lol. I had one on an ISX that one of the gears had cracked and was just free spinning on shaft, first and only time I'd seen that. I think the cats are all one piece tho |
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59 D17 gas nf, 66 XT 190, 69 220.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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Main driving gear I believe is press fit to the input shaft and only sold as a assembly the driven gear is solid. The pump I suspect has no internals beyond the gears, no side plates for shimming or gap control, in this instance I suspect it is doing nothing more than any hydraulic pump does and recycles the oil Outlet back to low pressure side inlet, will not ever develop pressure or flow.
Will be speaking to CAT tomorrow and see what they say. If get no validation or told it is what it is and no warranty then will buy a aftermarket pump and try that, Pressure goes up will seek out the Cat Warranty people and shove it in their face.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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Going today to Ortho group for a look at my shoulder and answers as to what next. Have a tear in the Long Head Bicep Tendon and a Labral Tear of the posterior of the Labrum of Right Shoulder. Know I am my own worst enemy, been beating myself to death on this project as well the Old 7G when got to last months of ownership.
So have been speaking to the Cat guys and then I find a familiar name, Brian Richtercesing, is Svc Mgr at Fabick CoMO, he and I were at same HS EONS ago!! He and I spoke for a while yesterday between work and a dentist appointment(Destroyed a upper Bridge assembly), he sent me the diagnostics pages by email for low oil pressure on these engines. HE had a special note, in 2010 HE was still a Tech, had a similar engine issue and had been pulling what little hair he had left out in clumps over it, by happen chance he reinspected the Oil Pump Suction Throat, the Suction tube had a little odd polished wear indication and found the same in the pump throat, replaced BOTH and all was again fine with that engine, was allowing the o-ring seal to pass air. I am headed there today to p/u parts ordered, and will be inspecting all this closer where I AM replacing the p/u tube and this pump.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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Went to Cat, stop at service First pickup tube SHOULD be alright so still bought New one, two new suction and discharge tube o-rings, and swapped pumps still a reman. Will see how well this works this time.
Edited by DMiller - 05 Oct 2021 at 2:16pm |
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BPM75
Orange Level Joined: 11 Jun 2011 Location: Greenup IL Points: 1050 |
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Good luck! Hope that takes care of it
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59 D17 gas nf, 66 XT 190, 69 220.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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Gotta have faith
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DonDittmar
Orange Level Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: MIllersburg, MI Points: 2476 |
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I work for a KW dealer and I too have overhauled many E models and C15's. That pump is not right.
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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Took all into Cat yesterday as noted, the pump was opened up and found as 'Opened Up' as to nominal clearances, even the techs could not believe it would make any reasonable pressure. We all re-inspected the suction tube where the OFF Chance that a spot weld had cracked under a welded on bolting flange cinched the deal I bought a NEW One. Pump was covered warranty, even issued new tube O-rings which I questioned as were NOT similar to those the Parts guys at the other office issued, the previous ones WERE WRONG Too!! I was set up for success ALL round.
Parts are here just need the weekend. Was also explained had the pump NOT functioned at all the only parts Cat would replace would have been that pump, If I had allowed the engine to seize it would have been all mine in NO WAY will they pay that out. Edited by DMiller - 06 Oct 2021 at 6:06pm |
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BPM75
Orange Level Joined: 11 Jun 2011 Location: Greenup IL Points: 1050 |
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Yeah Cat warranty is pretty tight on coverage, Lol. Well they all are far as that goes. I remember several irate O/O when I worked for Peterbilt years ago, and can't say as I blame them!
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59 D17 gas nf, 66 XT 190, 69 220.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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All back together and fired off, coolant got low quickly where auto shut down cut in(May do a delete on that as do not mind alarm just not auto stop). Oil pressure at start was 22-25psi, still too low, 1400rpm and 35psi, after warmed to op temp low oil warn came on, just at 10psi and still 35 at 1400, better but NOT enough.
Taking a break to ponder, contact others on this and see what they consider. Will replace Piston cooler Jets(Least expense), will pull timing front structure cover and check gear train bearings where is possible lost or losing one or more. Is three Idler style gears, one adjustable that have internal bushings off a main gallery feed, oil passage passes thru cover edge wall could have lost a seal. Radiator has to come out, front mount removed, damper removed, All accessories removed, pan dropped AGAIN. Frustrated as had considered Out Of Frame OH, saw no reason to not do In Frame after cleaning it up, MY Error.
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Red Bank
Orange Level Access Joined: 18 Apr 2018 Location: Germanton NC Points: 1049 |
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Been following this I was hoping you would get lucky with it
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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Will have front structure apart in next couple weeks, inspect and put back together, have had several Cat Tech buds that stated is about the only area that can drop pressure this severely where I have hit everything else.
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BPM75
Orange Level Joined: 11 Jun 2011 Location: Greenup IL Points: 1050 |
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Oh no, that's a bummer, I really figured changing the pump would cure it.
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59 D17 gas nf, 66 XT 190, 69 220.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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The structure has been down and going back together, nothing bad there where as had it open blocked passages and blew air back into oil gallery, something is really Open near to the #1 sleeve bottom, have to get the engine mount back on and block sitting where can drop the understructure again and inspect UP inside that region.
The large round plug behind the clear tube in next to last photo is the Main Oil Gallery seal, the gallery feeds the front main and then a rifling comes off to geed the gear train passages(covered with welders tape for test) the Air Compressor oil line and a passage to the head. I blew air into the compressor oil feed line to find had a rather large release point behind the front main and Up around the Gallery area. If block is cracked will be obvious, if another plug or fixture as a piston oiler should be readily visible once get gear train where can roll the engine over and move crank shaft throws out of the way. Cam gear and set backlash next, then cover and with front mount.
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tadams(OH)
Orange Level Access Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Location: Jeromesville, O Points: 9638 |
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You sure are getting into this engine, hope you get it fixed.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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You and I both, been all over this monster where now realize should have completely pulled it to out of frame it.
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DonDittmar
Orange Level Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: MIllersburg, MI Points: 2476 |
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Its because you are not a dealer. If that pump had been installed by a CAT or TEPS dealer, then incidental damage is covered under warranty. If the part is sold over the front counter and customer installed, then the only thing covered under warranty is the part itself
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
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DonDittmar
Orange Level Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: MIllersburg, MI Points: 2476 |
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On the plus side the E model is an easy engine to work on. Bring it is a W900 with a set forward axle, that makes it easy as well.
BTW, When you have the front plate off the E model really shows its B model ancestry.....visible by the unmachined cam holes in the block lol
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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Speaks a lot of the 3406 original engine these descended from, the B was the last Mechanical engine, the E the first Electronic and fraught with issues back in the day. This engine had issues as the first of the Emissions heavies.
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DonDittmar
Orange Level Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: MIllersburg, MI Points: 2476 |
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It is a solid platform, the iron has proven itself through the test of time. The same base block will make 1000+ HP in a marine application.
When they went from the B to an E, they had a few issues, albeit they were electronic issues and had nothing to do with the iron or engine design, but those issues themselves were quickly worked out. And yes, CAT's choice to stay away from EGR and go with a twin turbo setup hurt them in the long run. After studying it, I see what they were trying to do and I understand them not wanting to cycle dirty exhaust back into the intake air, but the twin turbo setup was maybe not the best option. Hindsight is 20/20.........
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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The IVA/VVA systems did do just that, cycled carbon loaded exhaust into the intake chamber, just nasty. Anyone(EPA, CARB) too stupid to understand Diesel needs CLEAN intake air to run correctly needs one of these shoved where the sun don't shine.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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Front structure 75% reassembled where could time cam and set to front mount. Getting there...
Edited by DMiller - 23 Oct 2021 at 4:14pm |
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DonDittmar
Orange Level Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Location: MIllersburg, MI Points: 2476 |
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Easy engines to time.
Did you find the source of low oil pressure?
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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Not yet
Back under it today. |
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BPM75
Orange Level Joined: 11 Jun 2011 Location: Greenup IL Points: 1050 |
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Good luck on that, I hope whatever you find is repairable. It'd be pretty upsetting to find the block has a crack or something like that after all the time and money you've got in this engine
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59 D17 gas nf, 66 XT 190, 69 220.
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BPM75
Orange Level Joined: 11 Jun 2011 Location: Greenup IL Points: 1050 |
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Isn't there a way to convert the accert back to single turbo? Seems like I heard that a few years ago, a company that ran several of those was buying a kit that came with turbo, piping, and everything needed to convert. I'm pretty sure it wasn't offered by Cat but I could be wrong. |
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59 D17 gas nf, 66 XT 190, 69 220.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29486 |
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I have the single turbo conversion on it, got the piston cooling jets down, NONE were either loose nor damaged, blocked the nozzle ports and blew air in Air Compressor oil feed line, Air exhausting behind No 1 Main and High in block, Gallery has to be cracked, have to pull engine fully and remove crankshaft to validate, it IS coming out presently.
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BPM75
Orange Level Joined: 11 Jun 2011 Location: Greenup IL Points: 1050 |
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Oh jeez, hate to hear that
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59 D17 gas nf, 66 XT 190, 69 220.
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desertjoe
Orange Level Access Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13358 |
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Well,,,we're rooting for you, Dave,,,,
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