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Gave my WD45 a tune up. Now it does run right.Help

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braskyku View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 12:02pm
Howdy fellas. I've ignored the first rule of tractors. I tried to fix something that wasn't broken. Now it doesn't run right. I replaced the plugs, plugwires, rotor, cap, points, and a worn wire on the coil. I've gapped the plugs to 30 thousandsths like the manual said. The points are set to 20 thousandsths. The tractor fires right up but it has no power. It has a tough time going up my driveway which is at a very slight incline. It never had a problem with power before. As a matter of fact it ran real strong. Anyone have any suggestions?
1955 WD45 schwartz front end
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ohio WD45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 12:22pm
Make sure the plug wires are going to the correct cylinder, and did not get switched around.
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Goose View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 12:24pm
I'd say your timing is off. Get or borrow a timing light and get it dialed in. If you need instructions, just say so and I or someone else can explain how to adjust the timing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 12:26pm
Was the rotor bug a different style than the old one?  There are 2 very different styles, and changing styles will change timing.  I'll bet your timing is slow.  Bring tractor to full throttle (which is actually 1/2) and then adjust timing for max and smoothest rpm.  Then retard it back a couple of degrees until you just start to hear a slight drop in RPM.  Then take on the hill and see if it's better.
JimD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote braskyku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2010 at 1:08pm

Thanks for the advice! Instructions for timing would be great! My dad has a timing light I can use.

JimD, the rotor bug was different. The one that was on it hooked over like a half moon shape and the new one just sticks straight out. I did put the old one back on to see if it'd make a difference but there was no change.
 
As a matter of fact I put all the old stuff back on and it still doesn't seem right.
Thanks again Fellas!
1955 WD45 schwartz front end
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Gerald J. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 10:56am
Changing the points and point gap changes the timing. You HAVE to set the timing after changing the points. There is no way around that. You could advance the timing until it pings going up hill in 4th gear at near full throttle when you open the throttle the rest of the way, then back off a hair.

Gerald J.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 12:46pm
I had an old time A-C dealer mechanic tell me that you knew when the timing was right when you snapped the throttle closed from full speed and got one loud backfire from the exhaust.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 1:11pm
That's true Brian, especially with the right muffler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 1:24pm
Braskyku,
The best way is to hook up your timing light and shine it on the flywheel through the inspection port. There is a dot on the flywheel which should line up with a mark on the casing. Maybe find the marks before you start up the tractor and mark them with White-out or something highly visible.
Loosen the distributor hold-down bolt. While at idle, turn the distributor until the marks line up, then tighten down the distributor hold-down bolt.
If you can, rev up the engine and observe the marks with the timing light to make sure the timing advances when run at a higher rpm.
You should be ready to go.
 


Edited by Goose - 28 Jul 2010 at 1:24pm
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braskyku View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote braskyku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 2:21pm
Thanks again guys! Where can I find the inspection port? I figure I'll use the hand crank to turn it over slow and find the F position.
1955 WD45 schwartz front end
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 2:40pm
Crawl underneath your tractor, just behind the engine.
The timing mark is found by looking under the flywheel housing for a small hole possibly covered by a small plate held with two wing bolts. The FIRE mark and the TDC mark are located on the flywheel through this hole. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allischalmerguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 2:47pm
Did you throw your old plug wires and coil wires away? If not, put them back on and see how it runs. Did you use solid wire plug and coil wires?

Another idea...are the points gapped right?
Just some ideas.
Hope you get it going...
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 3:07pm
I would put the timing light in the garage and do like Jim D says. "Bring tractor to full throttle (which is actually 1/2) and then adjust timing for max and smoothest rpm.  Then retard it back a couple of degrees until you just start to hear a slight drop in RPM.  Then take on the hill and see if it's better.
JimD:
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 3:10pm
You are welcomed to use a timing light, but I can tune one faster than walking to the barn to find my light.  I've spent hours on the phone trying to teach somone how to verify TDC, and find the marks, and  then mark it, and then get a friend to adjust while they use the light.
My method has it tuned in about 10 minutes tops.
JimD
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Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 3:51pm

I'm like JimD, just have an ear for it...

"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wkpoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 4:51pm
It ain't timing! If it ran good before than it ain't timing. Not to say the timing might not be set  the best but his problem ain't timing. I would veture to say he put in a bad new condenser. Had it happen to me yrs ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 5:07pm

wkpoor "As a matter of fact I put all the old stuff back on and it still doesn't seem right. "

 
Owner of OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Musgrave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 5:13pm
After moving WD throttle wide-open--slam throttle back to idle; engine should make two "cracks" (backfire?) before coming to rest at idle speed.  Told to me by old A-C salesman who heard it from his mechanic Eldon Bash--Smith Farm Implement in Arlington, Ohio. This would have been late 50' or early 60's. Don't know if this is true of the WD-45.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 5:16pm
Robert, That is correct.  When it's all tuned well, you should get at least 1 good "POP" out the exhaust.  I always liked making it crack like that during a parade.  Then just look around like it come from somewhere else.
Owner of OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 5:31pm
WKPOOR! Changing the point gap changes the timing. So you HAVE to set the timing AFTER you change the point gap setting. And you set the point gap when you put in new or old points.

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 5:54pm
Check your point gap again. Sounds like they are set too close.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wkpoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by Gerald J. Gerald J. wrote:

WKPOOR! Changing the point gap changes the timing. So you HAVE to set the timing AFTER you change the point gap setting. And you set the point gap when you put in new or old points.

Gerald J.
You missed my point. If it ran good or at least reasonably good before the tuneup then timing and point setting must have been close to tollerance.  So simply replacing the points ( with correct gap ) and condenser would not change timing enough to cause his problem. Sure I understand point gap can effect timing but if point gap is close than timing will be too unless the distibutor was removed for this mx....at least good enough to not tell the difference. In fact I just mark the setting prior to removal and then tweak it by ear afterwards. We are splitting hairs here with an engine that runs about 1600rpm.
Thats why I said he might have installed a faulty new condensor. However he has since stated reinstalling the old parts didn't restore proper operation. I suspect there is something not being done correctly like already suggested ....incorrect point gap.
 


Edited by wkpoor - 28 Jul 2010 at 7:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by wkpoor wkpoor wrote:

[QUOTE=Gerald J.]WKPOOR! Changing the point gap changes the timing. So you HAVE to set the timing AFTER you change the point gap setting. And you set the point gap when you put in new or old points.

Gerald J.
You missed my point. If it ran good or at least reasonably good before the tuneup then timing and point setting must have been close to tollerance.  So simply replacing the points ( with correct gap ) and condenser would not change timing enough to cause his problem. Sure I understand point gap can effect timing but if point gap is close than timing will be too unless the distibutor was removed for this mx....at least good enough to not tell the difference. In fact I just mark the setting prior to removal and then tweak it by ear afterwards. We are splitting hairs here with an engine that runs about 1600rpm.
Thats why I said he might have installed a faulty new condensor. However he has since stated reinstalling the old parts didn't restore proper operation. I suspect there is something not being done correctly like already suggested ....incorrect point gap.
 
WK, what you say is true in a perfect world. A worn distributor shaft bushing can cause all sorts of fits from timing/dwell change. A worn bushing makes it impossible to accurately set the points. Move the shaft toward the points and the gap opens and dwell drops. Not enough dwell, not enough coil saturation time, equals weak spark. Go the other way and dwell increases, coil saturation increases, coil gets hotter from more "on" time and point life is reduced.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 9:26pm
And that dwell change changes the timing.

On a 4 cylinder engine, there's 90 degrees of distributor cam rotation per cylinder, 180 degrees at the crank. Typically the dwell time would be 45 degrees or 50% of the time the points are closed. That makes the total cam rise and fall about .040 spread over about a half inch circumference with a factory spec of .020 point gap.  So that's .040 slope over the distance between cam peaks, say a half inch, or .020" change in cam circumference position for each .001" of point gap change without a worn shaft. If the cam has a distance between cam peaks of half an inch that's 90 degrees, so a .020" change in firing position, is 90 * .020 / .5 = 3.6 degrees timing change per .001" point gap change. That's almost significant. A .005" change in point gap moves the firing point 18 degrees. THAT'S significant!

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote braskyku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 10:14pm
Well, I've just spent the last 5 hours trying to get it right. I found the inspection port and my dad cranked it with the hand crank until I located the F. I put some of my wifes fingernail polish on the and let it dry a bit so it would be easier to find. Then we started it and it fired right up but still doesn't run right. While I used the timing light my dad moved the condenser. We had the throttle wide open and it started acting real funny. It was running really rough and the air cleaner was getting air forced into it and it was spurting oil intermittently out of the top of the cleaner onto the hood. I did recently clean down the air cleaner and give it some new oil. That was when it was running good. Once we got the F to stay in the center of the inspection port it still wasn't running right. I would say it ran only slightly better.

Only thing I could think to do at that point was to check the carb. I did get some improvement while adjusting the main load. The air cleaner stopped spurting oil and it ran a little smoother.

I would like to confirm that it should be wide open while trying to time it. There is a second mark on the flywheel but it does not have a letter or anything next to it. It is just a mark but is clearly there intentionally. I do not understand why it was purring along before and had all kinds of power and now it can't make it up a 3 degree incline without sputtering and bucking and jiving.

If i posted some pictures would that help in anyway?

Thanks, David  
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Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 10:41pm
Makes me wonder if you have a couple plug wires turned around. The firing order is 1 2 4 3. Find #1 cylinder compression stroke. You can do that by turning the engine by hand with your thumb over the spark plug hole. When it pushes your thumb off, turn until you get to TDC. Where ever the rotor is pointing that is #1. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the dist turns clockwise. Put the wires on 1 2 4 3 and see what happens. Timing is set at idle speed only. At idle, turn the dist to center the "Fire" line in the hole. Speed the engine up to full speed just to see that the timing advances only.

Edited by Brian Jasper co. Ia - 28 Jul 2010 at 10:44pm
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stuart OH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 12:20am
No power spitin and sputtern,I'd check the firing order 1 then I'd check the fuel for water drain the float bowl and then check for fuel flow, I had flys in the fill tube for the sediment bowl once that caused same problem wasn't getting enough fuel,would slow the engine down would smooth up If thats all good the coil may have went bad. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 2:33am
Timing is usually set at idle, because the timing gets advanced by the centrifugal mechanism in the distributor at higher speeds. Its beneficial to check with the timing light that the centrifugal advance works. But there should be about 20 degrees crankshaft advance from idle to top speed.

Easy starting and poor power are signs of retarded timing.

The second mark is probably top dead center.

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 7:44am
Brian, you should qualify your statement. When using a timing light,"Timing is set at idle speed only. At idle, turn the dist to center the "Fire" line in the hole. Speed the engine up to full speed just to see that the timing advances only. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote braskyku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 9:53am

Hi Fellas. So then we are agreed that it should be timed at idle? This was a major arguement between my dad and I. He kept saying that it should be set somewhere around 500 rpms and not wide open. I was telling him that ya'll were telling me that it needed to be wide open. At slower rpms it does not sound nearly as bad. Tonight I plan to take pictures and post them. I'm going to take pictures of the old and new stuff. I assure you the I have the firing order correct so I will post a picture of that too. I will take pictures of the flywheel F and |  <-- Mark. I have gapped and regapped and reregapped the plugs and points. I've even used two different feeler guages to make sure. My I&T AC-11 isn't all they helpful. There is so much info about the other tractors, B, C, CA, WD, G, etc that its hard to even figure out what you are reading and looking at. Is there a better book? If you want any other pictures let me know and I'll take them.

Thanks again! David
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