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exSW 
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Location: Pennsylvania
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 Posted: 05 May 2019 at 1:01pm |
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So they add more paint to get it right. You'll have enough left over to paint a perfectly matched implement.
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Dave(inMA)
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Grafton, MA
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Posted: 05 May 2019 at 11:45am |
 Sugarmaker wrote:
I have a heck of a time with about everything I touch on this tractor! Try to make a move and it turns out like poop! Guess I must just be getting old!:) Will see if the paint shop can doctor it any. |
Chris, you may be having challenges, but your results are terrific. Keep the faith. Maybe burn some incense to appease the paint gods? 
Dave
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WC, CA, D14, WD45
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Ranse
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Joined: 11 Mar 2016
Location: Tennessee
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Posted: 05 May 2019 at 11:37am |
I think you're on the right track. I wouldn't scrap $120 worth of paint. The two in the circle look pretty good to me. A little more fine tuning and do the whole gallon and you'll be good to go. BTW, you wouldn't be the first to get it wrong. Check out these toys of mine. My D10 is supposed to be PO2, and the Wd45 is PO1 of coarse. I believe these tractors are backwards. 
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Sugarmaker
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Location: Albion PA
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Posted: 05 May 2019 at 8:35am |
Joe, Ranse, Folks Paint blotches, I circled what I though were the closest to matching the lid. Big blotch with 2 beside it is what paint looks like now. not much change from first big blotch!  Thanks! I thought the same thing, adding yellow would be the way to get the shade more correct. They did a small batch and had it close but they didnt go far enough with the gallon. I have options, Always have options! I am going to take it back again and have them try the more yellow approach. I found a old can of the Tisco PO#1 which has paint on the inside of the can lid and I am going to take that too. BTW it does match the color under the battery box lid pretty well. Second option is to go to local PPG paint stores and get color swatch of the 600080 which is reference many times. Worst case is have them make the paint for me.
So I learned something today, while on the FTE site (Ford Truck Enthusiasts) .There are paint Gods! I did not know that!:) That could be part of the problem and I am not sure what I need to do to appease them?
Ranse, Your correct I am border line on having a custom mix that cant be mixed by the numbers!
I need to get out and work on something. Would like to spray primer on the engine before it becomes a rusted hulk!
Question to the paint folks. So what color should my 1958 Allis D17 be? Should it still be PO#1?? Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 05 May 2019 at 8:39am
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Ranse
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Location: Tennessee
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Posted: 05 May 2019 at 7:21am |
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Sugarmaker,
I had the same problem with the AC cream I got from Napa. It had a yellow tint to it I didn't like. I took it back and they added white to it. Like Jgranat said, it took a lot to lighten it up. I bought a half gallon of paint and ended up with three quarters of a gallon. They did get the color to my satisfaction.
Keep in mind, when they doctor your paint it will be one of a kind that can't be duplicated. As long as you like it that won't matter.
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Jgranat
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Location: NW PA
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Posted: 05 May 2019 at 6:50am |
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FWIW Chris, my wife is an art teacher and she says it would take adding yellow to reduce that red look but it may take a lot to do it. It is easier to go from light to dark than dark to light according to her. I would say it is worth trying but the paint shop should make it right in my opinion.
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Sugarmaker
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Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
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Posted: 04 May 2019 at 9:15am |
Dave(inMA) wrote:
Hard to judge since colors often don't show up as "true" on computers, but clearly a different shade and clearly more red than the rest of the lid. I'd say it's not PO #1 - not sure what it is. Can you find something small that's clearly #1 to show the paint shop? |
Dave, I felt the under side of this lid purchased as complete new powder coated was a good example of the color. I dont have any original parts of the correct color. I also took a chance that the paint shop had a numbers match paint. Obviously this is not the case and I probably own $120 worth of incorrect orange.:( I have a heck of a time with about everything I touch on this tractor! Try to make a move and it turns out like poop! Guess I must just be getting old!:) Will see if the paint shop can doctor it any. Trying not to get to aggravated on this. My own fault on most of this stuff. I have seen about every shade on these old tractors. But Its nice to be close, and I liked the shade of the Tisco brand. More pumpkin color I guess?
Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Dave(inMA)
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Grafton, MA
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Posted: 04 May 2019 at 9:04am |
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Hard to judge since colors often don't show up as "true" on computers, but clearly a different shade and clearly more red than the rest of the lid. I'd say it's not PO #1 - not sure what it is. Can you find something small that's clearly #1 to show the paint shop?
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WC, CA, D14, WD45
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Sugarmaker
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Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
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Posted: 04 May 2019 at 7:32am |
AC Folks, Today the paint thing has me in a " Did I make a wrong move again!" mode. Just not sure I have the right shade of orange? The sample looked a little too red and not as much pumpkin color. Just a gut feel? I need to get some parts ready, spray the primer and then a couple parts with this Sherwin Williams top coat. I know its a better paint but the correct shade is important.
Here is a picture of the new paint (1.5 x 2 inch patch) on the inside of a battery box lid. The battery box lid was one that was powder coated. I think the powder coat color is pretty close to PO#1. The new paint brushed on and dried looks Ok but seems to have more red in it. I think it might be closer to PO#2?? An entire tractor done with it would look good and it would look orange!:) Maybe I am getting too fussy in my old age? It did darken some during drying. Has a nice shine to it!
Paint shop said they might be able to adjust the tint? That's yet to be determined.
Hope Things are good out there in Orange land! Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 04 May 2019 at 8:56am
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Dave(inMA)
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Posted: 03 May 2019 at 9:18pm |
Nice, Chris. I've never seen this done. Feels like you're on the home stretch.....approaching the home stretch..........definitely way more than outa the starting gate. 
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WC, CA, D14, WD45
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Sugarmaker
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Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
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Posted: 03 May 2019 at 8:03pm |
Folks, After doing not much actual work on the Allis tractor today I thought I better get out and try something I have heard about but never done. Put on a new ring gear!
Flywheel with ring removed. My machine shop took off the old one using a air hammer.
Heated the oven to 400F and set the new ring in for a while:
First try it did not fall on. Had to use air hammer to get it back off. Heated it again for 20 min at 450F. Pretty much fell on, with a few light taps, it was home. Made sure the chamfers were up position.
Good to go with a new ring gear! One more thing in the "while your in there" Syndrome! Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 04 May 2019 at 7:26am
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 03 May 2019 at 3:40pm |
Mike, Folks, It is a 3 plate clutch. WD45 type. The most worn plate was .072 inch .020 thinner than the center and the front disc. The grooves were almost gone after cleaning off the carbon. Bill at Sandy Lake took a look at all the components of the clutch and recommended that one disc only be replaced. So I ordered a replacement disc, got some used shims, and new small springs. Should be a good clutch when back together.
FYI New clutch discs are $80+ each. New shim packs are $50+ each.
Visited the paint place (Lake City PA) and picked up a gallon of Sherwin Williams Persian Orange #1. Sample looks a little brighter than the paint I had used before. Will see when we get some on a panel.
Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 03 May 2019 at 7:56pm
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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IBWD MIke
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Posted: 03 May 2019 at 8:37am |
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Chris, looks like you are making good progress. On the hand-clutch, have you thought about converting to a three disc? Would be a good upgrade and no better time to do it. I have gotten a lot of parts from E-bay but that source seams to have dried up for whatever reason.
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 02 May 2019 at 8:45pm |
Mike, Those look a lot like my tools. I have the small HF needle scaler.
I worked or played with the engine most of the day. Several areas: The hand clutch is taking a ride to Sandy Lake in the morning for evaluation. I did take the large snap ring off by compressing the assembly with some clamps. I realized I need to do this so I will be able to measure for the shims.
The large Bellville washer:
Next up was the pan, upon reviewing I found cracks in the rear corners.
Off to the weld shop
Checking the gaps:
Setting the end gaskets with the pan clips. These were included in the gasket kit:
Shelac on the block, dried a while, and set the pan gaskets. Made a couple locating studs.
Added the sealer on each corner:
Set the pan
Torqued to 8 ft lbs: Short one above the oil pressure port.
There was a small panic till I finally found the pan bolts still in a cup of dried up oil and grease! Took a few minutes to get them clean and ready to install.
Shellacked the inside of the valve cover and set that gasket too. Installed the governor cover and oil pressure plunger, spring and nut.
Hope to get some urethane primer on this block in the next few days.
Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 02 May 2019 at 8:52pm
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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MDWilliams338
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Joined: 19 Nov 2018
Location: NC
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Posted: 02 May 2019 at 3:45pm |
Chris I was thinking I posted this pic on this thread just a few minutes ago and it was mine I posted it on.Anyway the big one is the one dad uses for the big stuff.He also uses the slender grinders also but for the most part we use our neighbors diesel steam jet washer....it’s the big skid type Hotsy cleaner. 
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‘42B,’45B,’48C,’51CA,’52CA,’69170,1935WC,1936WC,WD,WD Highcrop,WD45,WF,D10/14/15/17/19
It isn’t how you die.It’s what you live for.-Daniel Boone
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Sugarmaker
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Location: Albion PA
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Posted: 02 May 2019 at 12:01pm |
AC Folks, I decided to take the hand clutch apart to review the components. I did not compress and remove the large snap ring. Not sure of any reason to do that on this clutch at this time. Marked the orientation of components during disassembly with vibro-scribe. (it doesnt get rubbed off during cleaning.) Removed the shim packs and marked them for location. There was about .100 inch thick stack of shims still in there.
(Back story: This clutch seemed to work fine although never worked or pulled hard while I have owned it. Just while I have it out its not going back in without review!)
What I found: The first clutch disc had heavy black carbon type build up on it. I used scotch brite on a die grinder to get that off and can still see the grooves. But it is about .020 inches thinner than the other two which look much better and have distinct grooves left in the dics.
Shim packs:
Here is the carboned up clutch disc (closest to the back of the tractor):
carbon removed: I will try to find a replacement for this one.
All of the faces of the plates look OK to me. But maybe I am not a good judge?
So I called a expert, Mr Rick Corder. Rick was nice enough to answer some questions over the phone and felt that at least that one dics needed replaced.
Will have Bill at Sandy Lake take a look at these parts tomorrow for a second opinion. Will pick up the small vertical springs in the assembly as mine have some wear and are thin in some areas.
All in all this was not as bad as I thought. And I dont think I need a whole clutch rebuild.
I now remember my Uncle going into one of Dad's 45's and taking out shims! Was magic to me at a dozen years of age!:)
Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 02 May 2019 at 7:51am |
ac hunter wrote:
Chris, you have gone to a great deal of effort just to get all the pictures and information on here let alone the work of overhauling the entire tractor. I have learned a lot from you and all the other contributors. Thanks a lot. Hope you keep it up through the finish on the 45 and on all your other projects. |
ac, Thanks for the kind words! The documentation helps me stay focused on a project like this. So easy to get side tracked this time of the year. My picture quality leaves a lot to be desired. The old flip phone has its limits. Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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MDWilliams338
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Posted: 01 May 2019 at 9:11pm |
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This thing will be tearing it up by July 4 for sure!!! I just replied to ya about the paint in my thread and I just now see you may be using what I used on dads B and WD,😁 Best I can remember I liked the SW...it shot well and later on good.
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‘42B,’45B,’48C,’51CA,’52CA,’69170,1935WC,1936WC,WD,WD Highcrop,WD45,WF,D10/14/15/17/19
It isn’t how you die.It’s what you live for.-Daniel Boone
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 01 May 2019 at 8:51pm |
Folks, Went to the paint shop and picked up some urethane primer. Good for bare metal and hope it will also work over the rustoleum rattle can painted parts too. I think they have me talked into trying their Sherwin Wiliams industrial top coat. I did get the oil tube and the oil pump installed:
Front crank shaft seal in place. Used electrical tape over the tapered hole in the crank.
Filled the back side of the front seal with grease to hold the spring. and some sealant on the O.D. Tapped into place with the PVC tube tool.
Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 02 May 2019 at 7:44am
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 01 May 2019 at 7:02am |
Jgranat wrote:
You have blown past me Chris, I am working on the roundabout they are building in Meadville and not spending much time in the shop at the moment. Glad the sleeve did the trick. I will have to try and get back on my project on rain days, the chickens go out side this week, all feathered out and eating like pigs!!
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Joe, Based on where my crankshaft had the wear from the old seal.,the speedi sleeve had to have the lip removed. If I remember yours looked to be about the same place as mine is. I had previously cut through the lip as per the instructions because I knew it was going to have to come off. I used a dremel tool on the lip for the cut. But man that lip was still a challenge to get off. You know those were about the best instructions (in the speedi-sleeve box), that I have seen in 30 years!
I knew those peeps would be about feathered. Time flies! I dont have to go to a job so I can play most of the day! Some days I get more done than others! You will get there on your WD45 engine build.
Dave, It is really nice to have folks with this much knowledge available to help us that don't!
I reset the valve lash to .015 inches. Oil pump, tubes, and pressure relief valve, next to install. Weather is just starting to get nice, lawns to mow too. I think I will set up a temp paint booth out side in a 10 x 10 awning. I have to start getting some orange on parts too! Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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ac hunter
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Posted: 01 May 2019 at 6:49am |
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Chris, you have gone to a great deal of effort just to get all the pictures and information on here let alone the work of overhauling the entire tractor. I have learned a lot from you and all the other contributors. Thanks a lot. Hope you keep it up through the finish on the 45 and on all your other projects.
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Allis dave
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Posted: 01 May 2019 at 6:29am |
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Here's a new forum tagline "Dr. Allis - The other service manual"
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Jgranat
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Posted: 01 May 2019 at 4:45am |
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You have blown past me Chris, I am working on the roundabout they are building in Meadville and not spending much time in the shop at the moment. Glad the sleeve did the trick. I will have to try and get back on my project on rain days, the chickens go out side this week, all feathered out and eating like pigs!!
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 10:16pm |
exSw, Yep found the valve lash/clearance dimension at .015 inches cold, was from older post where Dr. Allis was quoted. So I get to practice on that again tomorrow! Good experience, and fits my typical work mode. Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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exSW
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Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 9:55pm |
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I'd find that cold number if it were me.
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 9:41pm |
chas, Folks, Thanks for checking on me. I spent most of the day playing with the engine of this old Allis. I did get the timing cover with its gasket in place. (WD45 governor spring installed) Used the PVC with multiple wraps of electrical tape as the centering device.
Also spun the engine and adjusted the valves to .012 inches cold with each cylinder up on compression stroke. I see in the book that this is the hot dimension. Maybe I missed it somewhere as to the cold dimension for the valve dimension?
That's it I am done for the night! Tomorrow I am going to our local paint shop to see if I can find some good primer to get some painting started before rust takes over. Hope things are good in Orange land! Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 30 Apr 2019 at 9:44pm
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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chaskaduo
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Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 4:41pm |
Consuming that wine for the cork did not mess up your engineering abilities one bit. Looks like OEM to me.
Edited by chaskaduo - 30 Apr 2019 at 4:42pm
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1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 2:58pm |
Folks, I am going to drag you along till we cant stand it any longer!:) The three rocker arm rods, the one on the right has the least wear. But its a WD style, which has the larger oil entry hole on the manifold side of the rod at the 4:00 position (looking from engine front). The WD45 style has a small hole at 12:00 for the oil feed tube. The WD uses a spacer and a short spring on each side of the spacer.
So after some discussions I choose to use the less worn rod but needed to make modifications to allow it to get oil like the 45. I did not want to modify the splash shield. That way I could use the oil shield with no mods. (Other than it had small cracks and required moved to the weld shop and back quickly)
The rods: Yea new modified wine cork in each end. Slowed me down just a little consuming the entire bottle so that I could use the cork:
I rotated the center WD sleeve/ ring to have the threaded hole vertical. Inserted brass fitting to contact the rod and cut it off. This secures the ring and plugs (covers) the WD oil hole. It protrudes about 3/16 above the ring. Drilled through the remains of the brass fitting as a guide and through the rocker arm shaft. Assembled the rockers. WD45 oil tube fits nice and snug, just like it was made for it. This should also throw off the next person, that opens this engine in 50 years, for a loop too!:) You wont find that in your service manual!:)
Repaired oil shield:
Inserted flywheel bolts in to back of crank (removed spark plugs) and rotated the crank one rev just to make sure things are free. Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 30 Apr 2019 at 3:28pm
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 8:16pm |
Folks, I took the WD45 ocker arm assembly apart to replace the corks. Found some wear on the support areas. I took apart two other WD rocker assemblies and think I found a rod with less wear. Of course it was on the worst looking old assembly. Not even sure where it came from? I will need to use the WD type oil line feeding the center of the rod, with the better rod. Some assembly required, and your mileage may vary! Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 30 Apr 2019 at 2:42pm
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Allis dave
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Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 9:02am |
I wasn't on the computer all weekend either. Looks good. I know Doc's posted to almost always sue some of that copper sealer. Helps fill in the imperfections if the block wasn't decked.
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