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1938 B beginning resto

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theropod View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 7:57pm
Hey all,

First off thanks so much for having me. I got lucky finding y'all. This first post will be lengthy as I feel there is no such thing as too much information.

I am the proud owner of a 1937 B (serial # B4442) that is mostly original. The mag has been modified to use a 12v battery and an automotive coil with a resistor. If the tractor came with radiator shutters they are long gone.

My father-in-law owned the tractor and gave it to me. The B sat in his shed for 27 years without running one time. He rebuilt the engine in either 1961 or 62. We poured gas in it and it fired off on about the third crank of the handle, and purred without a tappet rattle or rod knock. That was a little over 6 years ago. Recently I have started the restoration process. I had to replace the water pump as the original was leaking when we started it a few years back. We got lucky to make it run as the tank is rusted like mad inside. Apparently we sucked debris into the carb (Zeinth). After taking the carb apart today I found what looks like tar coating every surface with a layer of rust in the float bowl. I will need to either replace the carb or rebuild it. Attempting to start it today it would pop and try, but not take. I bent the fuel line and dribbled gas into it to fill the float bowl. Don't laugh. It worked.

I will need to replace both rear rims as they are beyond all hope and rusted to nothing over huge swathes. The front rims seem sound. The seat is nonexistent, and the steering wheel is bent and the shaft doesn't seat in the down tube properly. Every inch of the sheet metal and drive train will have to be repainted. The radiator is suspect, but didn't leak during the short run we did. Here's to hoping it holds when it eventually reaches operational temperature. The crank handle burrs, or dowels, are worn and barely engaged the crank pulley. The manifold has two gapping holes in the exhaust portion, and that needs replaced before any extended run time happens. I sure don't want to warp any valves! There is no muffler now, and the pipe no longer locks into place.

I have already knocked the rust and dead paint off the hood (3 hole) and repainted it with Krylon "Pumpkin Orange" which is close enough to the original color for me. A cup wire brish on an angle grinder does miracles! I have also done this with the tank, but it needs an internal rust remediation badly. My plan is a hand full of drywall screws and water, shaking, rinse and repeat until clear then a phosphoric acid treatment follwed by a neutralization and then a coating to stop further oxidation. An aftermarket inline fuel filer will be added upon remounting.

I am recently retired and have far more time than money, but I have worked on every kind of gas birning engine imaginable. Aircraft engines, cars, trucks, motorcycles, outboard and inboard marine, lawn mowers and even a few glow plug kerosene burners. I am not intimidated by any part of this project, but I will no doubt have many questions along the way. I have never been too proud to ask for help, or too arrogant to assume to know all there is to know.

If I could figure out how to attach an image I would, but every time I try I get a message that I am inable to place the image at the current location.

Roger



Edited by theropod - 28 Sep 2017 at 8:02pm
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 8:08pm
you cant cut and paste to this page from your computer.... go the the "POST REPLY" button on the left side below the post and click on that........ look for the icon that looks like a green tree and click that... you can then search your computer and down load a photo from there and post......... make sure the photo is about 800 x 600 and just 2-300  kb size.............
 
to clean the tank you might try electrolysis as another option.. all you need is a cup full of WASHING soda, 5 gallons of water, battery charger, and a couple old steel straps... will post a link you can read.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 8:14pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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theropod View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 8:24pm
I am using my iPhone, and followed those steps to attach an image, but the error message was presented repeatedly. I will try again tomorrow from my desktop computer as it may well be an issue with the phone browser. I am anxious to share the pictoral progress from the neglected present condition to my eventual goal of restoration.

Yes, I am aware of the electrolysis process, and I have an old fashioned fixed amperage battery charger, but my wife and I live off the grid (going on 18 years) and power is precious around here. Still, I very well may try this method as I have read many reports of success.

Roger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 8:48pm
welcome to the forum.
you will find plenty of people on here with literally decades of specific experience with all Allis Chalmers models who are more than willing to help with any problem you might come across. 
 I speak as a tractor neophyte returning to action after a 3 yr hiatus - now finally retired.
Bill Long is the honorary chairman of the Allis B informal fan club, but there are many B lovers on here from Steve(ILL) - a true very knowledgeable collector - to me at the other end of the scale who is just finishing off a refurb of my 1941" birthday B".

we all love pictures, so if you have continued grief posting your pictures, PM me and I'll give you an email address and resize them for you (photoshop is my area of some expertise).
again - welcome - glad to have you with us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Randy MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 9:30pm
Good luck with your restoration. You can also upload pictures from your computer if you have them stored there. Need to change size to upload. R click on pic, click on OPEN WITH, move to PAINT.Top left click RESIZE, click on PIXEL. Enter 800, bottom box will fill automatically, click OK and exit PAINT. Now pic will upload small enough to the forum. On forum click POST REPLY, click TREE ICON and go to where your pic is resized. Double click on the pic and file name will appear in the browse box.Click off PLEASE BE PATIENT BOX.Click on upload and save it to your pic file and to the post where you want it. Sounds hard, but after you do it a few times it gets easier. By the way, your B would be a 1938 with serial # 4442. The 1937 B's had the Waukesha engine and 97 were built that year. Welcome to the forum!
34 WC #477, 38 B #1935, 1-116 on steel, #8 7ft dbl action disc, #9 5ft dbl action disc, 295 Chainsaw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 2:02am
Welcome and good luck with the B restore!
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote B26240 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 6:08am
Welcome to the forum!!  You can buy a small can of carb cleaner from NAPA or similar auto stores to clean your carb, sounds like you have the engine experience to do the job. Take your time as that Zenith has some small holes in it. As for rimes and other parts there are several good vendors who support this site.   Tractor restoration is a great hobby and you have a special tractor with family conections to work on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 6:34am

Here is the old B, which apparently is a '38. Just for the record there is an issue with uploading images to the forum, for me, from an iPhone running Firefox. I spent over 20 years as a graphic designer, and web developer, so manipulating images is nothing new to me. I use a Mac and own the latest copy of Photoshop.

As rough as the old beast looks the rust on the sheet metal is limited to the surface. It is not my plan to make it as smooth as a new car. My goal is to preserve and protect from further degradation. Anything would be an improvement over the sad condition in which it now exists!



Above is the results of removing the rust, and dead paint, from the hood and with a fresh coating of paint. As one can see the rear rims are gone. When I moved-drug the tractor to this position the right rim collapsed, so until I get shoes on it here is where it will stay. A good tarp awaits wet weather.

Roger

Edit to add: Thanks for the warm welcome. I might actually be able to contribute a little here myself, as I have been a working class stiff my entire life, and few of my machines have ever been in the hands of a paid professional as the money was never there. One makes do with what one has.


Edited by theropod - 29 Sep 2017 at 6:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote corbinstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 6:38am
If that engine is not stuck, it might be wise to fill the cylinders with some oil before putting that tarp on.... tarps have a tendency to trap moisture underneath.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 6:51am
Originally posted by corbinstein corbinstein wrote:

If that engine is not stuck, it might be wise to fill the cylinders with some oil before putting that tarp on.... tarps have a tendency to trap moisture underneath.


Yep, I understand this. One might glean that the engine isn't frozen by my comment on getting it to pop yesterday, but not take, during an extensive session of attempting to get it started. I have a squirt can with a mix of 50/50 diesel and 10-30 Pennzoil just for this purpose. A week hasn't gone by in the 6 years since it last ran when I didn't make sure the engine was turning over freely, and every couple months a small shot of my mix has been applied to the spark plug openings for each cylinder. No water has entered the engine from any opening, and condensation has been very limited. The tarp will be used only until I can get it rolling again. Had the rim not collapsed it wouldn't be out in the open now.

Again, this isn't my first rodeo guys.

Roger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ken in Texas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 7:02am
Here is a photo of a Early 38 B #751 I had a hand in finding the correct vintage 1938 bits and pieces for a historically accurate restoration. Lots of what you see here became obsolete in 1939. In other words used in 1938 only. List is pretty long.
     My best friend lost interest  after Restoring 2 AC Tractors. This 38 and a 55 IB were both sold to collectors in the past year and a half.  After this picture was taken a correct pair of Single Rib 5 x 15 front tires from Miller Tire replaced the Tri Ribs


Edited by Ken in Texas - 29 Sep 2017 at 7:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote davh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 7:02am
Will love to watch the progress!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 7:20am
Ken,

That is an absolute cutie! I love the wheel and front end weights.

The main goal for me is not to produce a show tractor, but rather to just end the downhill slide and protect it.

I have a belly mower, flail mower and finger rake for it.

My father-in-law has some extra parts from a newer model. One is a torque tube/bell housing with a starter allowance, which I have considered swapping out. I am hesitant to bastardize such a jewel, and probably won't mess up the antique this way. I might collect those parts, clean them up and offer them for sale to help offset the cost of the parts and supplies needed to bring my B back from the brink.

Roger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 7:31am
Welcome!!  And we would love to see pictures as you get-r-done. Thumbs Up
1957 WD45 dad's first AC

1968 one-seventy

1956 F40 Ferguson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 9:25am
When I do get this tractor rolling again I need to clean the greasy grime off before repainting the drive train. Would taking it to a steam cleaner be best, or would degreasing and hot pressure washing, be good enough? I realize this will not get the dead paint off, but one of these methods should get rid of the years of baked on residue. Then I should be able to get the metal prepared for paint easy enough.

Of course I could just sand blast the surfaces, but I worry about getting abrasives where it shouldn't be. My plan is to remove the fenders and steering column/torque tube cover and give them the same treatment as the hood, gas tank and radiator cover. Since the steering wheel, and column, needs attention this would all work together. I can see several cans of PB Blaster being used to free some time locked threads. I know rust is living under those parts, and I want that gone! Also cleaning the torque tube without removing that cover would be a nightmare. Yes the pitman arm and steering column will have to come off to get that cover free, bit it will need to be done.

Since I am not striving for a factory fresh restoration I am considering painting the drive train flat black, and everything else in the Krylon Pumpkin Orange I used on the hood and gas tank.The flat paint should hide scars and blemishes better than any gloss while protecting the surfaces from father time and the elements. Thoughts?

The only new rear rims I can find are the loop type, and it appears I am going to have to use those. Has anyone experience replacing the AC eccentric locking system with the loop type, and if so are there any pitfalls I should avoid/be aware?

Roger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 10:08am
I've witnessed and participated in discussions in this forum and at a railroad museum where I volunteer about the relative merits of "as original" and "as used" restorations.

if it's really gonna be a keep (and use?) forever tractor and not  subject to the correct police, I'm of the camp that says "your tractor, your colors".
If it does one day end up in the possession of a historian, repainting it to original colors will be easy enough since the tough work of de-rusting and prep has already been done.
my 2 cents worth, anyway.

also-  I have seen some very good results from a thorough pressure wash, and a light coat of primer before painting will reveal any remaining problem areas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bill Long Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 4:11pm
Tropod,  Thanks for taking the challenge of restoring one of my favorite Allis Chalmers tractors.  I am much too old to do restoring anymore and can only cheer from the sidelines.  Keep up the good Work
Good Luck!
Bill Long
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by Bill Long Bill Long wrote:

Tropod,  Thanks for taking the challenge of restoring one of my favorite Allis Chalmers tractors.  I am much too old to do restoring anymore and can only cheer from the sidelines.  Keep up the good Work
Good Luck!
Bill Long

Hey Bill,

When my Father-in-law offered me the old beast I about fell over! I had lusted after the B several times when we would visit, and didn't have a clue he would be so generous. He used the tractor, and a home made cable operated front bucket, to dig the basement of his house, which is a beauty. My only condition for taking the tractor was that his bucket contraption stay at his place. It gave me chills just looking at it as the cables looked to be under extreme stress just holding the bucket off the ground. I cannot imagine, or don't want to, what a strain they experienced with a load of rock and dirt lifted in the air.

It may take me a year or more to get it where I want it, but I hope to get it to the point it starts easy, drives easy and won't degrade any further. I have an affinity for old machines and own a 30's model Z Briggs and Stratton that runs like a champ. I bought it at a grain elevator sale for $5. All it needed was new points.

I have put off doing this because I simply did not have time, but now that I have given working for a living the long kiss goodnight the B is getting the love it has deserved for so long.

As an aside my user name, theropod, is a family if dinosaurs that were largely all meat eaters. Tyrannosaurus rex, and velociraptor, are members of this large group of dinosaurs. In a former life I was the executive director of a natural history museum that focused, and was located in, the Hell Creek formation. This world famous geologic formation represents, and preserves, the last 2-3 million years that non-avian dinosaurs were extant in western North America. We found, dug up, prepared, curated and displayed literally thousands of specimens. Some of the most rewarding work I have ever done. Certainly the most enjoyable.

Roger 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Michael V (NM) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 9:53pm
welcome theropod
for cleaning,,,if you have access to the hi-pressure /hot water washer,, use some oven cleaner on the grease,let it soak awhile then hit it with the hi pressure washer,, might take a couple tries but it will work good, if ya let the oven cleaner set long enough it will also take off the paint,, it really leaves a good clean surface after a good hot pressure wash
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 10:33pm
These projects can take on a life of there own. Since a tractor in this condition can have every part touched/worked on! I have left some crusty tractors in there work clothes, some were completed close to original condition. Either way you will learn a lot and have a pretty good time along the way too. Steve in Florida (hubNut) has done some very nice off color tractors similar to what you are planning.
Its a little more work to get the dings dents and parts clean, but can be rewarding too.
 Your hood looks way better!
Regards,
 Chris


D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 10:44pm
I agree with Michael--- pressure wash and oven cleaner... sometimes paint removed will etch things also.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2017 at 9:33am
Good stuff about the oven cleaner! I had forgotten all about it after using it to clean an old Ford 2.3 prior to rebuilding that engine. That was back in the late 70's so... Thanks guys.

Roger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 5:53pm
After watching several videos about using the electrolysis method to kill rust I am going to give the old B tank a good mechanical cleaning and try it. If it works as advertised I may turn an old 55 gallon plastic drum into a nice large tank and attack several parts. My wife's grandpa left her some old tools that could use the attention too!

Is the threaded lug in the bottom of the B gas tank 1/2" standard plumbing thread? If so I will probably get a pvc fitting to block that outlet so gunk doesn't lock the threads.

After another mechanical cleaning and flushing following the rust removal what about giving the inside of the tank a copper wash? From what I understand steel is happy to take a copper plate, and this should stop rust from reforming. The product "Root Kill" made for septic/sewer drain lines is loaded with the correct chemical to apply a strong copper bond. Replacing the rust killing electrolyte sodium carbonate with the "Root Kill", and switching the anode steel to copper pipe, is supposed to apply a nice copper plating. Wouldn't this be more robust than any coating/liner?


Edited by theropod - 03 Oct 2017 at 5:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote drobCA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017 at 8:05am
1. yes that's standard pipe thread.  I just used a galvanized plug.
2. I'll be very curious to hear/see more about the copper lining trick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tractorman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017 at 9:07am
Welcome  aboard,  best of  luck on  your  38   B... I  have owned and used mine for about  forty years,  from plowing to cultivating to sickle bar work.  it is at rest for the moment, trying to get the plow mounted  and then i will chase down why no spark . 
Play on 38 B 49 WF , working on D14, D15 B10, Bee 12 B110. use 185 and 190
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by tractorman tractorman wrote:

Welcome  aboard,  best of  luck on  your  38   B... I  have owned and used mine for about  forty years,  from plowing to cultivating to sickle bar work.  it is at rest for the moment, trying to get the plow mounted  and then i will chase down why no spark . 

Glad to hear of your old B! I think they are as cool as can be. Get that old machine cackling again!

Today I attempted to knock the loose rust inside the gas tank free in anticipation of my wife bringing some Sodium Carbonate home from work. Electrolysis is about to happen!

The link below is to some video I shot today of how I used my Yanmar as a slow rotating tumbler with nails and screws inside the gas tank. A good first step, and I think will make my electric work more effective. I was as safe as could be, and the Yanmar needed to limber up anyway.


Roger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by drobCA drobCA wrote:

1. yes that's standard pipe thread.  I just used a galvanized plug.
2. I'll be very curious to hear/see more about the copper lining trick.

Yeah, rummaging through my stuff/junk I found a brand new fitting with a plug left over from a propane flex line. Steel too. Plenty long enough to attach the negative clamp from the battery charger directly.

I think I may have to saw/cut off the top of the glass sediment bowl/fuel valve as corrosion has done a number on it. If it's zinc it may have saved the tank. Thinking of threading in a copper pipe and soldering a brass sceen on top of that.

Roger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 4:26am
Very good use of your Yanmar!
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 10:24am
The Allis G, B, C, CA shop manual should be helpful in the process.

http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf

Gerald J.
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