First off thanks so much for having me. I got lucky finding y'all. This first post will be lengthy as I feel there is no such thing as too much information.

I am the proud owner of a 1937 B (serial # B4442) that is mostly original. The mag has been modified to use a 12v battery and an automotive coil with a resistor. If the tractor came with radiator shutters they are long gone.

My father-in-law owned the tractor and gave it to me. The B sat in his shed for 27 years without running one time. He rebuilt the engine in either 1961 or 62. We poured gas in it and it fired off on about the third crank of the handle, and purred without a tappet rattle or rod knock. That was a little over 6 years ago. Recently I have started the restoration process. I had to replace the water pump as the original was leaking when we started it a few years back. We got lucky to make it run as the tank is rusted like mad inside. Apparently we sucked debris into the carb (Zeinth). After taking the carb apart today I found what looks like tar coating every surface with a layer of rust in the float bowl. I will need to either replace the carb or rebuild it. Attempting to start it today it would pop and try, but not take. I bent the fuel line and dribbled gas into it to fill the float bowl. Don't laugh. It worked.

I will need to replace both rear rims as they are beyond all hope and rusted to nothing over huge swathes. The front rims seem sound. The seat is nonexistent, and the steering wheel is bent and the shaft doesn't seat in the down tube properly. Every inch of the sheet metal and drive train will have to be repainted. The radiator is suspect, but didn't leak during the short run we did. Here's to hoping it holds when it eventually reaches operational temperature. The crank handle burrs, or dowels, are worn and barely engaged the crank pulley. The manifold has two gapping holes in the exhaust portion, and that needs replaced before any extended run time happens. I sure don't want to warp any valves! There is no muffler now, and the pipe no longer locks into place.

I have already knocked the rust and dead paint off the hood (3 hole) and repainted it with Krylon "Pumpkin Orange" which is close enough to the original color for me. A cup wire brish on an angle grinder does miracles! I have also done this with the tank, but it needs an internal rust remediation badly. My plan is a hand full of drywall screws and water, shaking, rinse and repeat until clear then a phosphoric acid treatment follwed by a neutralization and then a coating to stop further oxidation. An aftermarket inline fuel filer will be added upon remounting.

I am recently retired and have far more time than money, but I have worked on every kind of gas birning engine imaginable. Aircraft engines, cars, trucks, motorcycles, outboard and inboard marine, lawn mowers and even a few glow plug kerosene burners. I am not intimidated by any part of this project, but I will no doubt have many questions along the way. I have never been too proud to ask for help, or too arrogant to assume to know all there is to know.

If I could figure out how to attach an image I would, but every time I try I get a message that I am inable to place the image at the current location.

Roger

 

to clean the tank you might try electrolysis as another option.. all you need is a cup full of WASHING soda, 5 gallons of water, battery charger, and a couple old steel straps... will post a link you can read.

Yes, I am aware of the electrolysis process, and I have an old fashioned fixed amperage battery charger, but my wife and I live off the grid (going on 18 years) and power is precious around here. Still, I very well may try this method as I have read many reports of success.

you will find plenty of people on here with literally decades of specific experience with all Allis Chalmers models who are more than willing to help with any problem you might come across. 

 I speak as a tractor neophyte returning to action after a 3 yr hiatus - now finally retired.

Bill Long is the honorary chairman of the Allis B informal fan club, but there are many B lovers on here from Steve(ILL) - a true very knowledgeable collector - to me at the other end of the scale who is just finishing off a refurb of my 1941" birthday B".

we all love pictures, so if you have continued grief posting your pictures, PM me and I'll give you an email address and resize them for you (photoshop is my area of some expertise).

again - welcome - glad to have you with us.

     My best friend lost interest  after Restoring 2 AC Tractors. This 38 and a 55 IB were both sold to collectors in the past year and a half.  After this picture was taken a correct pair of Single Rib 5 x 15 front tires from Miller Tire replaced the Tri Ribs

That is an absolute cutie! I love the wheel and front end weights.

The main goal for me is not to produce a show tractor, but rather to just end the downhill slide and protect it.

I have a belly mower, flail mower and finger rake for it.

My father-in-law has some extra parts from a newer model. One is a torque tube/bell housing with a starter allowance, which I have considered swapping out. I am hesitant to bastardize such a jewel, and probably won't mess up the antique this way. I might collect those parts, clean them up and offer them for sale to help offset the cost of the parts and supplies needed to bring my B back from the brink.

Roger

Of course I could just sand blast the surfaces, but I worry about getting abrasives where it shouldn't be. My plan is to remove the fenders and steering column/torque tube cover and give them the same treatment as the hood, gas tank and radiator cover. Since the steering wheel, and column, needs attention this would all work together. I can see several cans of PB Blaster being used to free some time locked threads. I know rust is living under those parts, and I want that gone! Also cleaning the torque tube without removing that cover would be a nightmare. Yes the pitman arm and steering column will have to come off to get that cover free, bit it will need to be done.

Since I am not striving for a factory fresh restoration I am considering painting the drive train flat black, and everything else in the Krylon Pumpkin Orange I used on the hood and gas tank.The flat paint should hide scars and blemishes better than any gloss while protecting the surfaces from father time and the elements. Thoughts?

The only new rear rims I can find are the loop type, and it appears I am going to have to use those. Has anyone experience replacing the AC eccentric locking system with the loop type, and if so are there any pitfalls I should avoid/be aware?

Roger

if it's really gonna be a keep (and use?) forever tractor and not  subject to the correct police, I'm of the camp that says "your tractor, your colors".

If it does one day end up in the possession of a historian, repainting it to original colors will be easy enough since the tough work of de-rusting and prep has already been done.

my 2 cents worth, anyway.

also-  I have seen some very good results from a thorough pressure wash, and a light coat of primer before painting will reveal any remaining problem areas.

Good Luck!

Bill Long

Hey Bill,

When my Father-in-law offered me the old beast I about fell over! I had lusted after the B several times when we would visit, and didn't have a clue he would be so generous. He used the tractor, and a home made cable operated front bucket, to dig the basement of his house, which is a beauty. My only condition for taking the tractor was that his bucket contraption stay at his place. It gave me chills just looking at it as the cables looked to be under extreme stress just holding the bucket off the ground. I cannot imagine, or don't want to, what a strain they experienced with a load of rock and dirt lifted in the air.

It may take me a year or more to get it where I want it, but I hope to get it to the point it starts easy, drives easy and won't degrade any further. I have an affinity for old machines and own a 30's model Z Briggs and Stratton that runs like a champ. I bought it at a grain elevator sale for $5. All it needed was new points.

I have put off doing this because I simply did not have time, but now that I have given working for a living the long kiss goodnight the B is getting the love it has deserved for so long.

As an aside my user name, theropod, is a family if dinosaurs that were largely all meat eaters. Tyrannosaurus rex, and velociraptor, are members of this large group of dinosaurs. In a former life I was the executive director of a natural history museum that focused, and was located in, the Hell Creek formation. This world famous geologic formation represents, and preserves, the last 2-3 million years that non-avian dinosaurs were extant in western North America. We found, dug up, prepared, curated and displayed literally thousands of specimens. Some of the most rewarding work I have ever done. Certainly the most enjoyable.

Roger 

for cleaning,,,if you have access to the hi-pressure /hot water washer,, use some oven cleaner on the grease,let it soak awhile then hit it with the hi pressure washer,, might take a couple tries but it will work good, if ya let the oven cleaner set long enough it will also take off the paint,, it really leaves a good clean surface after a good hot pressure wash

Roger

Is the threaded lug in the bottom of the B gas tank 1/2" standard plumbing thread? If so I will probably get a pvc fitting to block that outlet so gunk doesn't lock the threads.

After another mechanical cleaning and flushing following the rust removal what about giving the inside of the tank a copper wash? From what I understand steel is happy to take a copper plate, and this should stop rust from reforming. The product "Root Kill" made for septic/sewer drain lines is loaded with the correct chemical to apply a strong copper bond. Replacing the rust killing electrolyte sodium carbonate with the "Root Kill", and switching the anode steel to copper pipe, is supposed to apply a nice copper plating. Wouldn't this be more robust than any coating/liner?

2. I'll be very curious to hear/see more about the copper lining trick.

Glad to hear of your old B! I think they are as cool as can be. Get that old machine cackling again!

Today I attempted to knock the loose rust inside the gas tank free in anticipation of my wife bringing some Sodium Carbonate home from work. Electrolysis is about to happen!

The link below is to some video I shot today of how I used my Yanmar as a slow rotating tumbler with nails and screws inside the gas tank. A good first step, and I think will make my electric work more effective. I was as safe as could be, and the Yanmar needed to limber up anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ami7tCdOgCA&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ami7tCdOgCA&feature=youtu.be

Roger

Yeah, rummaging through my stuff/junk I found a brand new fitting with a plug left over from a propane flex line. Steel too. Plenty long enough to attach the negative clamp from the battery charger directly.

I think I may have to saw/cut off the top of the glass sediment bowl/fuel valve as corrosion has done a number on it. If it's zinc it may have saved the tank. Thinking of threading in a copper pipe and soldering a brass sceen on top of that.

Roger

Saving that to the hard drive! Thanks a bunch Gerald!

Today I finished up the electrolysis on the tank and I think I am done. The inside of the tank is flat black everywhere! Video will soon be posted, but I ran out of daylight today. Near the end the amp meter went up and the anodes stopped growing gunk. After reading everything I can find that black stuff is magnetite and is asbout as inert as can be. The notion of copper plating the inside was just that, and after looking into it far more trouble than it's worth. With a couple hours of sunlight to dry the tank out tomorrow as coating of diesel will follow. Apparently the tumbling of the tank helped remove all the surface rust as the water/electrolyte was just dingy when I drained it (saved to be used again). Neither did my efforts produce that mound of floating scum. Only flakes and pieces circulated around as the electrolysis was churning away.

The carb rebuild kit came in the mail and I almost have that ready to go back together. A little rust lives in the dark passages here and there, and that needs to go before reassembly. I am thinking of naval jelly for that as I can brush it where it needs to go and not eat up the brass jets that are welded in place. If I could get new jets I would drill out the old ones, but those seem to be unavailable.

By this time next week the old AC should be startable again! Then I can concentrate on wheels and tires so it actually rolls.

Roger

http://youtu.be/rs0ua7CggDk" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/rs0ua7CggDk

Roger

I am not sure I will use a tank coating. I think killing the rust was enough as some of the zinc galvanized surface showed up after I was done. Seasoning the tank with diesel and letting the sun cook the metal should/will end it once and for all. If not I can drain the tank and apply the coating later. My goal for this fall is to get the old tractor running and rolling. Our rainy season will soon start and I want to be able to move it to a protected space before those rains start. If the rolling running condition is reached I can then keep the tank full of real gasoline (100%) and rust shouldn't be an issue. 

Roger

In a semi related matter I finished rebuilding the Zeinth carb after giving it a short electrolysis session (obviously now reattached to the tractor). While making sure all the passages were open I discovered the bore in the float bowl segment that connects to the main jet adjustment on the bottom of the carb, and the main nozzle, was plugged solid. So solid in fact I had to use a drill bit and apply serious pressure with my drill to clear it. Luckily I had the exact right size bit for this task, and no damage was done to the carb itself. Some seriously hard black gunk stuck to the flutes! This inspired me to double check all the other passages and the carb is now as clean as a whistle. I add this to inform you readers that the carb isn't likely the problem with the no start condition. I pulled the #1 plug, after an especially long cranking session, and the cylinder definitely had gas fumes inside, but the plug wasn't wet.

Just thought I would share these efforts both to document my struggles and seek opinions about my obstacles. Thanks all.

Roger

Edit to add: Just did a quick resistance test on the coil, and the primary reads 1.2 kilohms, and the secondary reads 1750 ohms. So apparently that coil has died, or is very close.

    Close to the beginning of this thread you had a Question on using 4 loop replacement rear rims.  Bear this in mind.  4 loop rims are Farmall Type. Your bolts if vintage 1938 are 3/4 inch.  2 plain and 2 eccentric.  The wheel centers if 1938 have 4- 3/4 holes close to the edge.  Bolt the 4 loop rims to the wheel centers with plain 3/4 bolts of the appropriate length Like a Farmall does.

     Sometime in mid or late 1939 a new and final rim to wheel attachment using 4 bump rims with 5/8 bolts. 2 plain and 2 eccentric became standard. I can't tell from your pics if your 38 has been converted to the latest 5/8 bolt design. a full conversion would consist of wheel centers with 5/8 bolt holes and all the latest lock blocks and 4 bump rims.

 

I am not sure what it has now. I will look closely tomorrow and post what I discover with a better picture. Either way I am going to have to replace those rear rims.

Are you saying if I went with the loop rims I would have to replace the disc mounting plates (sorry for the ignorance of what thise are called) that have the big axel nut and the mounting bolts pass through?

I am leaning that direction. I was thinking of a complete rebuild though, as no telling what else is wrong inside there. I have found several sad "modifications" that need to be addressed. The air cleaner is not stock as the outlet "pipe" doesn't even come close to aligning with the carb. I don't even think it is a B part. Someone cobbled together pedals for the brakes, and the levers are still in place. The list goes on and on. I have a multi year project on my hands. I knew this going in, so...

     I have several spare AC Donaldson oil bath air cleaners if you need one.

I am fairly confident the cast wheel centers are stock, but I will check it and get a picture today (still well before daylight here). I will measure the existing bolts as well. They look like 3/4" to me. My Father-in-law apparently just used what he could to keep the old tractor rolling, and didn't see it as the jewel I do. My wife's grandpa bought the tractor new, and he gave it to my pop-in-law.

I may just buy one of those air cleaners from you, but I have a long, and growing, list of parts I need first. No more than I plan on running it until the other issues are addressed it should be OK. The manifold is rusted through in a couple places on the exhaust sides. Right now I just want to warm it up and drain the old oil and replace the filter. Getting it rolling will allow me to protect it over the winter, as I actually expected the wheels not to collapse. Running or not I have to get it back under a roof before our horrid rainy season begins, and wheels with tires have to happen soon.

No problem posting pictures.
 

I need to make sure the Fairbanks Morse mag model number is right before I dive in to ordering parts. After seeing some of the things done on this tractor it wouldn't surprise me if the mag is from a different model tractor. The idea of rebuilding the mag doesn't frighten me too much.

I would love to be able to pull the old beast to turn the engine over hard, which I am sure would do the trick. My old body gets to complaining after an hour or so of yanking on that crank, and it would be so much easier to just dump the clutch.

I sprayed the plugs down with carb cleaner and left the cylinders open to the air to try to dry them out, and will give it another go tomorrow. I just want to warm it up and get fresh oil in it.

This is why machines need to be run more often than every six years.

I messed around some more to try to get the engine to fire off today, and it ran 3 different times for about 30-45 seconds. Each time the engine would run smooth and clean and then just shut down as if a key was switched off. The engine got warmed up enough to burn off the oil I have been squirting into the cylinders over the years, but wouldn't keep running. I still think the old carb is trashed. It's tough doing this by cranking that handle a hundred times! If I had a helper they could dribble gas into the throat of the carb and I could determine once and for all if it is a fuel supply issue. I don't think it is flooding out anymore, as after the last little bit of running I pulled the plugs and they are all dry as a bone. Thinking of shucking out the cash for a new carb. Yes, the float may be off, or it may be those jets I can't replace, or it may be this or that. I am sick of trying to figure out an worn out piece of junk carb far older than I am.

It really does sound like a fuel issue. A few years ago my 8N had probably 60 something years of crud in the gas tank, and I was mowing one day and it just sputtered and died. Wouldn't start. Poked around a bit trying to figure it out....wiring was good, had spark, but nothing. Waited a bit, then it fired right up and ran well. Back to mowing, then it died. Same thing...wouldn't start. I figured I had a restriction somewhere, so I gave it a minute, started it, and drove as far as I could toward the barn before it died. It was stop and go, but I eventually got there and cleaned everything out. The restriction was at the fuel bowl, so I flushed the tank, cleaned everything up, and it's ran like a champ ever since. 

I know that can be frustrating, but don't give up. If this 19 (Then 17) year old can do it, so can you! Just takes a little figuring out.

I have had that carb apart and back together at least 10 times recently. There isn't enough gunk left in there to cover the head of a pin. I still think the two brass internal jets that are "welded" in place are the issue, and I cannot find replacements anywhere. I could drill them out and then use an easy out if I had replacements in hand. I will, however, follow your advice and get some of the soaking type carb cleaner.

What is killing  me is the effort expended in cranking this thing. When I gave up trying today I was soaked in sweat, and it's pretty cool here. I was laid up all summer after breaking my ankle in early March, which the doctors waited 3.5 months to fix via surgery. This left me in the worst physical condition of my life. I am no where near back to fighting trim, and this is taking a toll. The ankle is all healed up now, but in my sedentary time I put on 20 pounds of blubber. It's coming off, but slowly. Being an old curmudgeon isn't helping. LOL 

I am not giving up, but I am going to shift my focus to getting tires under the old beast. At least then can pull it with my Yanmar and get away from that dang crank handle. My wife is bring home a new 1/2" drive 1 3/16" socket so I can get the left rim off, and bolts from the collapsed right side. With both rims off I can make an assessment as to whether they can be repaired and put back into service. I have a feeling I can make them work. My pop-in-law had a spare rim, but it has issues too.

Sometimes it's hard not to get a little angry at my wifes dad for letting it get in this shape, but he saw it much differently than I do. To him it was just an old tractor that had paid for itself many times over. To me it is a piece of history that needs to be preserved. I'll get it back in shape, but I really want things to progess at a more brisk pace. I have never been overly patient, but the AC is teaching me how to be.

That's another option, if you want to try that, but I don't advise doing it in your house, as it gives off some pretty potent fumes dissolving gum and varnish. 

If none of those work, you're right...you may be ahead to get a new carb, if your seats are that stuck in there. 

As far as your father-in-law letting the tractor deteriorate....I know people like that. They used that equipment long ago, fighting it their whole lives day in and day out, trying to scrape together a living, and after that many years, could care less about it. I'm like you...just trying to preserve what we have left, especially family items. 

Sigh. My loving wife brought home the 1 3/16" socket, and the bolts on the right side have 1 1/4" heads. My measurements didn't account for rounded off corners. The left side are 1 1/16" heads and I had both a box end wrench and 1/2" socket for those. So, there are two sizes of bolts, and as "Ken in Texas" mentioned earlier the left side bolts are 5/8" and the right side bolts are the correct 3/4". So now I have some decisions to make. I can either find the correct size new bolts for both sides and attempt to save my old rims, or order new rims and bolts. The good news is both rear rims are now off the tractor. I am still very very tempted to switch to the loop style rims and put this part of the job behind me. Concourse correct has never been my goal.

My next target is the front rims. Both are rusted, but not so bad as the rears. A session of electrolysis should put them right. I am going to have to come up with some sort of tank large enough to accept them, and a plastic 55 gallon drum, which I have several, just might work. If so I can use this tank for the fenders and other parts. Just about every part of the old monster is rusting.

This is the first antique machine of any kind I have actually tried to restore. I am comitted but I was really unprepared for the undertaking. It really doesn't help that the tractor was cobbled together just to keep it rolling. I understand it, but dang.

If I can't get the carb to act right I very well may try the boiling water trick. A couple gallons of distilled water should do the trick. At this point I have little to lose. We keep several gallons on hand for our off grid battery bank. (The secret to longevity in a flooded lead acid battery is keeping them charged, topped up with electrolyte and never allowed to rest discharged).

Anyway, I figured I should share these things with a community that knows exactly what I am facing, and the progress (if it can be called that) can generate valued advice. 

Thanks y'all.

I just have accept it is what it is.

Yep, and I just did a similar test with the results you cite. I have a clear tube hooked to the inlet to the carb, and fill it with gas by dribbling gas into it. The tank isn’t mounted. It seems the float valve only works when it feels like it, and the carb is clean as a whistle. This leaves that needle valave as the culprit, and it is brand new!

I rechecked the float level and operation with the carb broken apart. Split apart the float valve works flawlessly. Apparently the float is touching the side of the bowl. Dang carbs, I see why they are obsolete. Looks like I will be taking the carb off for about the 50th time. 

I envy the lid on your toolbox.  I have to get one of those.

I can’t believe how easy the old B starts now. Even after warmed up refiring it was a breeze. I cannot wait to get the media blasting done! I may have a shop lined up to apply primer and paint, which needs done very soon after stripping.