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79fordblake 
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 Topic: WD45 smoke at startup
Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 2:09pm |
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Well I have a little problem with my complelty overhauled WD45 engine. Puff of oil when first cranked then it's fine after that. I'll make a phone call to the machine shop sometime this week to see what they think. The head was complelty gone through, new everything. Runs great, sounds good, 30psi of oil pressure. I installed new corks in the rocker shaft. Anybody think I'm pumping to much oil to the top or valve guide clearance wasn't made right? I did the full flow conversion on this as well.
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Bill_MN
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 2:17pm |
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Puff of oil...where? Are we talking about blue smoke out the exhaust or actual spray of oil somewhere? Sounds like something happening as it's sitting then the first startup blows it out.
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1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow
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79fordblake
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 2:30pm |
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Burns oil when I first crank it(smoke out muffler). Then it's fine after that.
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Dan73
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 3:42pm |
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Sounds normal... just kidding probably one of the valve stem seals didn't get set right would be my guess. I wonder if you pulled the plugs and used a camera scope if you could see the problem on the inside.
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79fordblake
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 3:56pm |
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These engines don't have valve stem seals. That's why I'm wondering if they didn't check clearances after putting everything together. I did have the rocker arm shaft apart. I didn't notice which way the oil holes were pointing or if it even matters. Ill take valve cover off next weekend and look at it. No time to do it during week.
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Leon n/c AR.
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 4:05pm |
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Sounds possibly like valve guide or guides loose letting oil drain down valve guide. Leon
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 6:06pm |
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Color of the smoke is significant to the trouble shooting. Oil burns blue, rich gas burns black, coolant comes out as gray or white steam. What color is it?
Gerald J.
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79fordblake
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 6:59pm |
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Blue oil.
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79fordblake
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 7:10pm |
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Anything that could be done to this engine was done. It was a $5,000 rebuild. Head was milled flat on all surfaces. All new valves, springs, guides, seats. Just the head work was $514. Block work was over $1000. Cleaned, aligned bored, everything balanced, bearings fitted to crank, cam bearings, rods reconditioned, etc.
Edited by 79fordblake - 05 Feb 2017 at 7:12pm
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CrestonM
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 7:13pm |
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My B was that way before I overhauled it. It would leak oil down through the valve guides, and smoke a bit on startup. I find it incredibly difficult to trust machine shops after they rebuilt my 8N oil pump and left a burr on a tooth. I got it from the shop, turned it by hand, and it had a catch in it. I knew that wasn't right, so I took it back and they fixed it. BUT....what if they did the whole engine? I'd have never known. That incident made me lose a lot of trust. That, and they didn't put freeze plugs back in my block on the 8N when they cleaned it. They billed me for them, but didn't put them in. I made them put them in.
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Dan73
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 7:18pm |
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It is like everything else in life sometimes a good shop makes a small mistake and some times a shop just isn't that good. Everyone has a bad day. I would call the machine shop ask them if they want to see it start before you bring the head back but if they are a good shop they will stand behind their work and fix it. Could be as simple as a bad seal on a valve that they didn't notice when they put it in.
Of course the suck factor is you will be buying a new head gasket. I had to do that with my d15. I replaced one and my mechanic replaced the second one when he made a small mistake he offered to but the replacement gasket because it was his mistake the second time first time was on me. To me if someone stands behind their work it goes along ways with me.
Edited by Dan73 - 05 Feb 2017 at 7:21pm
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79fordblake
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 7:33pm |
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I'll have to have a new head gasket, thermostat housing gasket, rear block off plate gasket, manifold gasket, take my new manifold studs back out...ugh. Ive sent a message to the shop. They are going to look on their records that everything was checked after assembly. Getting very close to 10,000 in this tractor and now I'm taking steps backwards.
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ALLISMAN32
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 8:39pm |
We always put valve seals on when overhauling one. Been quite a while since I did overhaul a w series engine, but unlike an automotive engine they have removable guides that are driven out and new ones pressed in. Sometimes those guides have grooves inside them that helps to keep the oil from leaking down them, maybe they put the guides in upside down allowing the oil to easily travel down them between the valve stem. If it was me I'd try putting valve seals on without pulling that head. Put your piston at tdc, get a whip that threads into the plug hole and hook it up to shop air,
remove the rocker shaft , compress the spring enough to remove the keepers and retainer, remove spring, insert valve seal and reassemble. The seals we always used came from Goodson, they were black with a spring wire on the outside of them and a white Teflon ring on the inside that sealed against the valve stem. Good Luck, Chris
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LeonR2013
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 8:50pm |
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I agree,if it doesn't have seals on it, it would have this time. This would give you a chance to shake the valves and see just how tight the guides are.
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Don(MO)
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 9:46pm |
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I'd fill the oil back up to full and then put a load on it for two or three hours and recheck the oil level I'm thinking the rings are not seated.
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 9:47pm |
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Leaking oil around intake valve stems can also be detected by watching for blue smoke after closing the throttle with the engine running fast. The closed throttle will increase the intake manifold and intake stroke vacuum considerably and suck oil past the intake valve stems and show up as blue smoke. I was taught this test by an old time engine mechanic.
Gerald J.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 10:14pm |
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Do what Don says.I'm no expert but have heard experienced Allis guys say NO seals or your guides will wear out fast....
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79fordblake
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 3:49am |
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No oil burning while it's running or while it's working. I've been working the crap out of it. Plugs are clean as can be. Shut it off for 10 minutes or so and smokes bad at start up then quits. No signs of oil level going down yet. Haven't added any oil to it since I got it together and running in Decmember.
At one point I shut it off and took plugs out as fast as I could. Everything looked good. Then I let it set a little bit. Checked it again later and you could actually see some oil on pistons.
Edited by 79fordblake - 06 Feb 2017 at 4:01am
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Dan73
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 4:12am |
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That is classic valve leaking when it runs they don't leak enough to see it but when it sits it puddles.
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Allis dave
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 7:03am |
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Stupid thought, but did you put the rocker arm baffle back on?
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Stan IL&TN
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 7:19am |
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I had the same stupid thought as Dave about the rocker shaft oil shield baffle thing. It was installed on later units to reduce oil consumption.
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1957 WD45 dad's first AC
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79fordblake
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 8:12am |
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Yep it's on there.
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Allis dave
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 9:36am |
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Well that's a bummer Blake
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 9:41am |
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Is oil puddling on top the head high enough to be over the valve guides? E.g. is the drainage for the rocker arm area plugged?
Gerald J.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 11:18am |
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What you're describing Blake is normal operation. With no stem seals when you shut it off, there's always going to be some oil run down the guides. My Oliver 60 and CA both do this. They both have new guides and valves. That's just the nature of the beast...
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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79fordblake
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 11:35am |
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There has to be something causing it. After all the money I spent there is no way I can live with it being like this. The old wore out engine didn't smoke at startup. I'll update what I find when I take the valve cover off sometime next weekend.
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79fordblake
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 11:58am |
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Would converting to full flow oiling have anything to do with this? Just a thought. I guess I could crank it and look inside cap on valve cover to see how much oil is flowing up there.
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JimD
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 12:04pm |
Head was not designed for valve stem seals. You can put them on as others have suggested. If you do, do ahead and order a valve train set because you will need it before long. I've rebuilt plenty of heads because the owner put them on. Your stems are leaking though. My bet is a mistake was made and either wrong guides, ir mishandling.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 12:05pm |
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Assuming it has new valve guides, maybe they are pressed into the head too deep, exposing too much valve stem on the topside ??
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LeonR2013
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Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 12:09pm |
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Read an article years ago about a guy wanted to test a 318 Chrysler motor that didn't use any oil and what would happen if he took the stem seals off. First he took off the exhaust valve seals. Got smoke at start up and used quart of oil in 2,000 miles. Filled it up and removed intake seals and used a quart in 800 miles. It's been so long ago I can't remember where I read it, but it's there somewhere.
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