WD45 smoke at startup
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=134697
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Topic: WD45 smoke at startup
Posted By: 79fordblake
Subject: WD45 smoke at startup
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 2:09pm
| Well I have a little problem with my complelty overhauled WD45 engine. Puff of oil when first cranked then it's fine after that. I'll make a phone call to the machine shop sometime this week to see what they think. The head was complelty gone through, new everything. Runs great, sounds good, 30psi of oil pressure. I installed new corks in the rocker shaft. Anybody think I'm pumping to much oil to the top or valve guide clearance wasn't made right? I did the full flow conversion on this as well. |
Replies:
Posted By: Bill_MN
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 2:17pm
|
Puff of oil...where? Are we talking about blue smoke out the exhaust or actual spray of oil somewhere? Sounds like something happening as it's sitting then the first startup blows it out.
------------- 1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 2:30pm
| Burns oil when I first crank it(smoke out muffler). Then it's fine after that. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 3:42pm
| Sounds normal... just kidding probably one of the valve stem seals didn't get set right would be my guess. I wonder if you pulled the plugs and used a camera scope if you could see the problem on the inside. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 3:56pm
| These engines don't have valve stem seals. That's why I'm wondering if they didn't check clearances after putting everything together. I did have the rocker arm shaft apart. I didn't notice which way the oil holes were pointing or if it even matters. Ill take valve cover off next weekend and look at it. No time to do it during week. |
Posted By: Leon n/c AR.
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 4:05pm
| Sounds possibly like valve guide or guides loose letting oil drain down valve guide. Leon |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 6:06pm
|
Color of the smoke is significant to the trouble shooting. Oil burns blue, rich gas burns black, coolant comes out as gray or white steam. What color is it? Gerald J. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 6:59pm
| Blue oil. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 7:10pm
| Anything that could be done to this engine was done. It was a $5,000 rebuild. Head was milled flat on all surfaces. All new valves, springs, guides, seats. Just the head work was $514. Block work was over $1000. Cleaned, aligned bored, everything balanced, bearings fitted to crank, cam bearings, rods reconditioned, etc. |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 7:13pm
| My B was that way before I overhauled it. It would leak oil down through the valve guides, and smoke a bit on startup. I find it incredibly difficult to trust machine shops after they rebuilt my 8N oil pump and left a burr on a tooth. I got it from the shop, turned it by hand, and it had a catch in it. I knew that wasn't right, so I took it back and they fixed it. BUT....what if they did the whole engine? I'd have never known. That incident made me lose a lot of trust. That, and they didn't put freeze plugs back in my block on the 8N when they cleaned it. They billed me for them, but didn't put them in. I made them put them in. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 7:18pm
|
It is like everything else in life sometimes a good shop makes a small mistake and some times a shop just isn't that good. Everyone has a bad day. I would call the machine shop ask them if they want to see it start before you bring the head back but if they are a good shop they will stand behind their work and fix it. Could be as simple as a bad seal on a valve that they didn't notice when they put it in. Of course the suck factor is you will be buying a new head gasket. I had to do that with my d15. I replaced one and my mechanic replaced the second one when he made a small mistake he offered to but the replacement gasket because it was his mistake the second time first time was on me. To me if someone stands behind their work it goes along ways with me. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 7:33pm
| I'll have to have a new head gasket, thermostat housing gasket, rear block off plate gasket, manifold gasket, take my new manifold studs back out...ugh. Ive sent a message to the shop. They are going to look on their records that everything was checked after assembly. Getting very close to 10,000 in this tractor and now I'm taking steps backwards. |
Posted By: ALLISMAN32
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 8:39pm
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We always put valve seals on when overhauling one. Been quite a while since I did overhaul a w series engine, but unlike an automotive engine they have removable guides that are driven out and new ones pressed in. Sometimes those guides have grooves inside them that helps to keep the oil from leaking down them, maybe they put the guides in upside down allowing the oil to easily travel down them between the valve stem. If it was me I'd try putting valve seals on without pulling that head. Put your piston at tdc, get a whip that threads into the plug hole and hook it up to shop air,
remove the rocker shaft , compress the spring enough to remove the keepers and retainer, remove spring, insert valve seal and reassemble. The seals we always used came from Goodson, they were black with a spring wire on the outside of them and a white Teflon ring on the inside that sealed against the valve stem. Good Luck, Chris
|
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 8:50pm
| I agree,if it doesn't have seals on it, it would have this time. This would give you a chance to shake the valves and see just how tight the guides are. |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 9:46pm
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I'd fill the oil back up to full and then put a load on it for two or three hours and recheck the oil level I'm thinking the rings are not seated. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 9:47pm
|
Leaking oil around intake valve stems can also be detected by watching for blue smoke after closing the throttle with the engine running fast. The closed throttle will increase the intake manifold and intake stroke vacuum considerably and suck oil past the intake valve stems and show up as blue smoke. I was taught this test by an old time engine mechanic. Gerald J. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 10:14pm
| Do what Don says.I'm no expert but have heard experienced Allis guys say NO seals or your guides will wear out fast.... |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 3:49am
|
No oil burning while it's running or while it's working. I've been working the crap out of it. Plugs are clean as can be. Shut it off for 10 minutes or so and smokes bad at start up then quits. No signs of oil level going down yet. Haven't added any oil to it since I got it together and running in Decmember. At one point I shut it off and took plugs out as fast as I could. Everything looked good. Then I let it set a little bit. Checked it again later and you could actually see some oil on pistons. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 4:12am
| That is classic valve leaking when it runs they don't leak enough to see it but when it sits it puddles. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 7:03am
| Stupid thought, but did you put the rocker arm baffle back on? |
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 7:19am
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I had the same stupid thought as Dave about the rocker shaft oil shield baffle thing. It was installed on later units to reduce oil consumption. ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 8:12am
| Yep it's on there. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 9:36am
| Well that's a bummer Blake |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 9:41am
|
Is oil puddling on top the head high enough to be over the valve guides? E.g. is the drainage for the rocker arm area plugged? Gerald J. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 11:18am
|
What you're describing Blake is normal operation. With no stem seals when you shut it off, there's always going to be some oil run down the guides. My Oliver 60 and CA both do this. They both have new guides and valves. That's just the nature of the beast... ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 11:35am
| There has to be something causing it. After all the money I spent there is no way I can live with it being like this. The old wore out engine didn't smoke at startup. I'll update what I find when I take the valve cover off sometime next weekend. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 11:58am
| Would converting to full flow oiling have anything to do with this? Just a thought. I guess I could crank it and look inside cap on valve cover to see how much oil is flowing up there. |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 12:04pm
|
Head was not designed for valve stem seals. You can put them on as others have suggested. If you do, do ahead and order a valve train set because you will need it before long. I've rebuilt plenty of heads because the owner put them on. Your stems are leaking though. My bet is a mistake was made and either wrong guides, ir mishandling. ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 12:05pm
| Assuming it has new valve guides, maybe they are pressed into the head too deep, exposing too much valve stem on the topside ?? |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 12:09pm
| Read an article years ago about a guy wanted to test a 318 Chrysler motor that didn't use any oil and what would happen if he took the stem seals off. First he took off the exhaust valve seals. Got smoke at start up and used quart of oil in 2,000 miles. Filled it up and removed intake seals and used a quart in 800 miles. It's been so long ago I can't remember where I read it, but it's there somewhere. |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 12:23pm
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And that motor is DESIGNED for them. The AC is NOT. ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 12:33pm
|
I'm reading all these posts and I'm wit' Don. Take the Tractor out and run the piss o' of it. Work it hard and seat the rings. That's probably all thats wrong wit' it. If it runs nice and only does it on the first start, I would put it to work for a few hours and then see what it does. Might be fine... Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 1:52pm
|
Put it on a dyno warm her up good first them load her up good and hard, watch the blow-by, if it heavy the rings are not seated if the blow by is good them look at the head. If it turns out that the guides are letting oil by before you just replace parts find the trouble, yes the guides can be to-low or valve stems/guides have wear. If the shop didn't replace all the parts in your head that you where billed for I'd look for a better shop. Find the problem first, then open it back up and fix what's wrong. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 2:05pm
| I figure rings are already seated. No blowby at all with oil fill cap off and cap on valve cover off while running. Heck I don't know. I'm about burned out on the project now. |
Posted By: Eric B
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 2:38pm
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Very frustrating when you have spent all that money... It does not seem to be a common problem on any of these old engines. With the high flow higher oil pressure you might have an oil bath like second to none under that valve cover?? Would be interesting to hear what you find once you start it with the valve cover off. I once had a 149 cu. in. A-C with exactly the same start up blue puff problem. The previous owner had over hauled the block but not the head. What solved my problem 100% was that I cleaned off the top of all the valves and valve springs thoroughly with ether and rags...then smeared (not excessive) Ultra Grey Silicone to seal from any oil going down the stems and voila... never ever had any blue puffs again. A year ago I had the head off my WD and I did the same thing just to be sure, but it did not previously have that problem anyway. ------------- Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal! |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 3:04pm
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I don't see how the full flow could be getting THAT much oil to the head. There's only a 3/16 line feeding the head and that line is split so some of the oil goes to the governor. There should be more than enough space around the pushrods to drain the top end. Also with that baffle installed, most of the oil I deflected down to the head AND the head is sloped down to the pushrods. The only oil getting to the valves has to run down the arm, then down the valve guide. The top of the valve guides is almost level with the valve cover surface. You'd have to have the whole head almost overflowing with oil to pool and run down the guides. I don't see that happening with half of a 3/16 oil line. Did the machine shop ask for valves when they worked on the head? My shop had me give them a valve to make sure they got all the tolerances correct. You said you were pulling plugs. Can you narrow it down to a certain cylinder? I wouldn't really know how though. It's pretty hard to see in there without a borescope or something |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 3:17pm
| Could it be a crack in the head that expands when it warms up and doesn't leak as much warm? |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 4:51pm
| The head was checked for cracks but I don't guess that really means anything. Machine shop ordered all the parts. The old valves were still in the head when I took it to them. I have all the old valves, springs, seats, guides in a box. I contacted machine shop. They told me to let them know what I find when I remove valve cover. I'll crank it and look down valve cover to see how much oil is moving around. After that I'll take valve cover off and look at everything. Then I'll crank it with cover off. More than likely I won't have anymore info until Saturday. I don't feel like doing much after I get off work during the week. Thanks for all the help guys. I'm trying not to lose my mind over here lol. This thing has been a project for almost 10 months now messing with it every weekend. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 4:56pm
| All I can say is I feel your pain. My d15 has been like that. It has fought me tooth and nail and now the loader joystick valve has something wrong because it will randomly dump all by itself and I just rebuilt the curl cylinders because the seals where shot. Hang in there you will get it eventually. That is what i keep telling myself. |
Posted By: Bill_MN
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 5:08pm
|
I completely rebuilt my WD engine just the way you did, spent about $3500. No rocker arm baffle, no valve seals, everything tight and square, full flow conversion, and I've never so much as seen a single puff of smoke since it was rebuilt. Something was done wrong, either an incorrect part or clearance. Sometimes you have to build and check them yourself twice to catch the little things, and it could be a very little thing causing it. Keep at it. ------------- 1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 5:15pm
I just went out and pulled the plugs. All dry, no oily residue. Those D17 pistons are thirsty. I checked my gas level it used quite a bit. I had it on the disk yesterday for about 2hrs. 3rd gear slinging dirt. Varying throttle back and forth and at times wide open. I checked oil no loss that I can detect.
|
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 5:19pm
| Yup about 3.5 gallons an hour and haying mine uses every bit of that. But I haven't seen a tractor with the same hp rating that can do as much work either. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 5:56pm
| Is there a chance you are getting some oil out of the air filter at start-up, that is causing the smoke? |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 8:43pm
| There's a good thought. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 9:32pm
| I would think finding oil on the pistions after it sat with the motor not running would rule out the air cleaner. Beside the one time I over filled one of them enough to suck oil back to the motor it didn't want to start very well not enough air would be my guess I just remember my d17 didn't start well and it took me a while to realize I over filled the oil bath air cleaner that was years ago. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 7:27am
| OK. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 7:35am
| The service manual has the specs of how far the guides should be pressed in. I'd take docs advice and check that out. Mine are just a little under the valve cover surface. I don't know if that's to spec. That's just where the shop put them. and I haven't ran it yet. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 8:14am
| Just for the heck of it I'll check the air cleaner oil. I took it all apart and cleaned and refilled cup before I started it. I'll also take a look at valve guides when I get valve cover off. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 8:15am
|
Sometimes new aftermarket valve guides aren't knurled. These engines need knurled guides or they will suck oil in. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 8:21am
| They had knurled guides even when new? |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 8:53am
|
I same problem on our WD. Was more of a pride thing than a real problem but I dug back into it and found that the after market guides had a huge chamfer on the I.D. that I had paid little attention to upon assembly. I made up a piloted spot face tool and turned the top of the guides flat then chamferred only enough to remove the burr, been running good w/no smoke at start up for 10 years now. Its an easy check to see if oil down the guides is the problem. Remove the manifold after it has set a day and look at the valve stems. Dark stain and some dampness is OK, but if any of the stems are wet with oil thats your problem, |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 9:16am
| A-C intake guides always had a spirol pattern inside them. They also had a tee-pee shaped top (not flat top) for oil to run off the guide. Also a correct pressed in height. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 10:54am
| I'd be calling a patent lawyer if I was you. You say you keep burning oil and the level never goes down. That's awesome! Perpetual energy!! |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 11:14am
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
79fordblake wrote:Posted By: ocharry
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 11:24am
|
those plugs look a little white to me,,,,should be a light tan color,,,,i would want that girl a little richer if she were mine my grand pappy always told me he liked to see a little oil consumption like what you have because it told him the top end was getting a little oil and it helped with longer life but i also think a brand new motor shouldn't smoke anytime,,,,me thinks there is a valve guide clearance problem,,,,,enough to to worry about ,,,, maybe not,,,but i have to agree it would have me pissed,,especially on a brand new high dollar motor my .02 ocharry
|
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 11:37am
| It's only showing oil smoke on start up. And no like I said the oil level has not went down yet. I doubt burning a little oil at start up is going to lower the level any that is noticeable for awhile. It's still on the full mark right now. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 11:39am
| DRAllis would you happen to have a picture? |
Posted By: skipwelte
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 11:42am
|
Id say the guides probably are not quite correct for this application. Now its a matter of do you want to tough it out and fix it or live with it as its not gonna be a huge isssue, but will always be there. You could put some valve stems seals on and improve it alot, or replace the guides with different ones-problem is getting the correct ones. Back in the day when we worked on a lot of these engines we always put valve stems seals on the intake valves. We had a special tool to cut the guide to accept positive valve stem seals-worked real good and the reason for doing so was to eliminated blue smoke at start up. Good luck Blake. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 11:49am
| Lol I think you know the answer to that. Noway I'm going to deal with this. I'll find NOS valves and guides or have these aftermarket guides modified to work correctly. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 5:24pm
| Cranked the tractor this morning. Blue smoke out the exhaust. Used it 3hrs mowing today. Ran great and not one puff of blue smoke the whole time. Turned it off when I got done and let it set about 15 minutes. Cranked it up....blue smoke out the exhaust..... |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 5:53pm
| It seems to me, that you would get a faint bit of smoke all the time it was running, if it was leaking around the valves, and it would go down on oil. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 5:55pm
| Forgot to mention I took the valve cover off. I can move the valves side to side in the guides. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 5:58pm
Well they won't get stuck on you... |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 6:09pm
| For the last two weekends I've been going backwards. I think I'm gonna have to step away from it for a couple weeks and work on a different project. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 9:42pm
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I've been talking to the machine shop. They don't seem to think I have a major problem. They said they would look at it if I pulled it back off however. I think it's probably cheap China parts that are already at MAX SPEC. Which is no good to me. I didnt spend $5000 just for the hell of it. Blue smoke at start up is a smack in the face! Any Allis mechanics out there with a machine shop that can make this head the way it's supposed to be? |
Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 10:17pm
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just for giggles, what type of motor oil are you using? ------------- I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science. |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 10:40pm
|
Bet your shop will try to get you to let them install seals or re knurl the guide bores, I'd have them replace the bad parts (vales or guides) even if they installed new parts and you might remove the springs after the head comes back home and check the re-work. My shop knows not to use China junk in my engine re-machining.
------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: fixer1958
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 8:19am
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My FIL's 45 was doing that also after we redid his engine. I suspected the valve guides were the issue. At first there was a little puddling on top of the piston. It wasn't really an issue with him but it bothered me. This was last spring when we got it finished and has since ran the piss out of it. It has since stopped or lessened since. It doesn't use oil like it did before. It would drop a quart and then stop using any more. My WD does the same thing and I have never figured out why. He is happy as a clam with it because of the increased power and just overall good. He bought it new in 55 and farmed with it for years. Better than it ever was and than some. He uses JD oil and will not use anything else...period! I don't know what the viscosity is but according to him it's the best thing since sliced bread. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 8:36am
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I'm using 30w break in oil. I was going to switch to 10w30 afterwards. Hey Don where do I need to send this head to get good parts if it don't work out with this machine shop? I can get valves and guides from Sandy Lake. Anybody know if the ones they offer are still made like originals? I know a few of you have said it's normal to see maybe a little because of the design of the engine. But I haven't seen any WD or WD45 do this at all of the shows or pulls I've been to unless it was a worn engine. Heck the old engine I took out had no telling how many hours on it...getting down to almost no oil pressure and starting to have a little noise in bottom end....still no smoke on startup. |
Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 9:04am
Knurling the guides would probably cure the problem. I bought a '69 Torino new and within 17,000 miles it burned a valve. Ford fixed it under warranty; knurled the guides and replaced valves. I was apprehensive but I drove it to 144,000 miles and never had a problem. However.....in your case, after having spent all that money for both new valves and guides, I would not settle for less than a complete new head job....done right! They should really compensate you for your extra work as well!
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Posted By: fixer1958
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 9:08am
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I completely understand the WTH is this after spending 5K on something. It's getting hard to find anything that is not made in china. You may find some NOS parts still around. Machine shops that are worth a chit are far and few between around here anyway. As you said before.....step away from it for awhile. What you need will fall in your lap in time if you are paying attention if that makes any sense. |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 9:37am
I understand you being all pi$$ed off at the shop, I have a story that might help you see what might have happen to your head. back over thirty years ago we had a new guy come to town opened a engine rebuild shop and after two or three months he stopped by my tractor repair shop to have me look at some heads he had come back to him for rework. So I pulled all the valves out and looked at the new guides and valves he installed all the guides had way to much wear inside them and after a short talk about how he did the work we found the trouble he had in the rebuild, he was just blowing the new guides out and not washing them and running a brush in them and then oiling the valves before installing the springs. This was in the good old days before China junk was a problem. I'd go talk to the shop and find out just what they cleaned the head out with before putting it back togather. To find a good shop to take your head to I'd look around for the local race shop and have them work on it, might cost more up front but save you money in the long run. Good luck and if you don't find a shop I can tell you about my shop. FYI I do most of my head work in-house, know just what was done to them. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: TREVMAN
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 10:33am
| I would drop the break in oil and try rotella 15-40 before I tore it down... It is very frustrating to do that much and spend that much and have an issue, been there for sure. Hope it turns out o.k., Trev. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 11:40am
|
You know Brian, he has more money in his motor that you probably had in the whole '69 Torino. I tell you I'd be jumping up and down having a fit if this was my motor and I'm a real calm type of guy. LOL I wish my son was still in the biz. He knew what he was doing and was dead honest with his customers. That was probably one of the reasons he closed the shop and went to work for another guy. He said he enjoys the less stress. Other than what Don said, which is a real possibility, I'm getting real suspicious that they kept your new guides and said they put them in. Not saying that's what they did but it does happen. It's either that or they screwed them up. I don't know how much you can move them but with new guides and valves it should very very little. Think about how satisfied you'll be when you whip this thing.
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Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 12:13pm
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I went to the best machine shop in my area. I'm not sure they understand how critical this part is on this engine design so I don't have the puff of blue smoke when I start it. They told me to bring it when I can. Right now my check book and me personally just ain't ready for that. Fixer1958 most of this build was done with NOS parts. I never found NOS valves and guides. Anybody know if the valves and guides from Sandy Lake Implement will be just like the originals? They sent me some pics but I don't have any pics of NOS ones to compare. I have all new bearings and seals to rebuild the final drives. Also have new brake drums and relined brake shoes to put on. Also still wanting to complelty go through the front end to get it all tightened up. I've been working on this project every weekend for 10 months now. |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 2:17pm
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I know where you can find most or maybe all the NOS parts for it. PM me if you need them.
------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 4:44pm
If you can move the valve stem in the guide side to side you don't have China junk! You still have your old valve guides plain and simple. China junk will not wear that fast. Even if they were made out of hot or cold roll steel. Someone is blowing smoke up your skirt. If they would have happened to be new they were out of spec. What kind of shop would put in new valve guides without checking them first. The clearance between valve stem and guide spec is .0025 to .0045. New would be real close to the .0025. Not detectable side to side installed. I would hope it was a screw up rather than the way they do things. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 5:58pm
| I agree Dick. They never gave me an answer on the valve to guide clearance. I don't think it was checked. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 6:05pm
| I would go in and have a heart to heart with the owner. Tell him your not happy with the work they did and there are two choices they take it back and make it right with no charge to you or you will take your machine shop work somewhere else form now on. A good shop will stand behind their work a bad shop you want to leave behind. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 6:17pm
| Yeah I know this just kinda complicated everything and alot of extra trouble. The place is about a hour away and they are closed on Saturdays. I work 10hr days sometimes 12 and they are not very forgiving on leaving work to do things unless it's an emergency. I'll have to use some of my vacation days just to get this done. When I get this figured out I'll make sure I report what happened. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 7:53pm
Not necessarily. If only the (or an) exhaust valve is leaking past the guide there would be very little leakage while the engine was running. Reason being there are exhaust gasses blowing the minute amounts of oil back up to the top of the head. When the engine is not running this oil could ooze down to the valve or into the cylinder. |
Posted By: JPG AUSTRALIA
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 8:23pm
| DickL is right on the money,you cant move a valve side to side with good guides by hand, you need a dial indicator to measure the clearance,if they move side to side they are your old guides still. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 6:29am
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To get as much slop as he indicates, I suspicion now that they may even have used the old valves. Look at them real close when you pull the head and they won't look polished like a new one even if they were cleaned up. Did you take them NOS valves and guides? If you did and they didn't put them in don't let them dump off some Chinese junk on you. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 8:21am
| I'm taking a vacation day Friday and I'm taking the head back to machine shop and I want it disassembled and clearances checked while I'm there. |
Posted By: Eric B
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 1:57pm
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The shop should admit to having put a total rookie on this job...what machinist would install a head full of parts without checking clearances BEFORE the parts are installed?? They owe you a 100% free upgrade on this one including all gaskets needed!! Do they care at all about their reputation?? In the old days reputation was local... in today's age reputation goes worldwide in seconds! ------------- Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal! |
Posted By: fixer1958
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 7:11pm
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Probably didn't use the new guides and stuffed the new valves and springs in. How you going to know any different? Get any old parts back? I didn't get any old guides back but got everything else. Gave the chit head the benefit of the doubt. I know better but didn't. |
Posted By: bryan/silex
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2017 at 7:55am
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just out of curiousity,,,,id like to see parts prices that got it to $5000 just for the engine ------------- WD's and 45's B's and c's and a few red ones , ALLIS EXPRESS also |
Posted By: Ted J
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2017 at 7:55am
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Blake, I sure hope you get the satisfaction you deserve out of this. I have that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. Bet you wished you'd of sent it to Don to get it done now. Hind sight...... ------------- "Allis-Express" 19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2017 at 8:19am
| 2K just for machine work. NOS pistons/sleeves. Rebuilt distributor. New manifold. New clutch kit. Thermostat housing, water pump, NOS governor fork, new bushings in timing cover etc etc. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2017 at 9:07am
You have to ignore some of the guys on here when the topic of coat comes up. Alot of them have the tools and skills to do the machine shop work themselves and don't consider how expensive it gets for those of who are not mechanics or Machinest. I have spent so much on my d15 I am pretty sure I would be better off dollars and cents to have never bought it. But I do like the old tractors even if they are expensive and burn alot of gas. |
Posted By: bryan/silex
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2017 at 10:39am
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Dan,,,,, I was just curious as to what cost $5000 to do as I also have a wd45 motor to rebuild...but if that what it takes to overhaul one then im going a different route. if that price included every single thing he could replace then that a different story. Not being critical just curious as I have been following his progress though this whole thing. ------------- WD's and 45's B's and c's and a few red ones , ALLIS EXPRESS also |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2017 at 10:59am
| Bryan you can get a engine overhaul kit for about $900 that includes pistions rings sleeves and all the seals. I just bought one for my d17 last fall. I had to buy a crank as mine had already been turned the max and was damaged. That was $600. I had $900 in machining total that was a head rebuild and cleaning the block. I would go through the distrubitor I think that cost me an additional 150 because I ended up having to get someone who was old enough to remember when they rebuilt them in the past look at it. I was ready to put it in a box and ship it off to steve at B & B when I found someone local who fixed it while I waited. That is the major costs I can think of at the moment. A running motor is alot cheaper but I figured that was really just another used old motor who knows how long it would run and I use my tractors to farm with still. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 9:15am
| Took the head off and it's setting at machine shop right now. I watched him take it apart. He said yep its getting lots of oil down the guides. Looking for NOS parts right now. He said he don't really see how anything will help it but putting on seals. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 9:18am
| Go over to the supplies page and try calling around there for a set. I haven't has to track them down myself but I am sure there are several supplies on the list here who use the parts themselves and can get you a good set. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 9:19am
| I was very particular about this build and it was my Grandpa's tractor. I wanted everything 100% correct to have a long running engine. Hopefully all will be well when the head issue is corrected. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 1:34pm
| For the heck of it popped the valve cover off of my old engine. It had Ford style valve seals! |
Posted By: Bill_MN
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 2:21pm
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The machinist is flat out wrong about the valve seals, if they can't get it to run proper with new unworn parts you need a new shop.
------------- 1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow |
Posted By: Dans 7080
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 3:00pm
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There's an old allis dealer in Cincinnati Ohio that still runs a machine shop. They will know and can fix it right. Suder engine service. Talk to Joe. 513-385-8444. ------------- When someone tells you Nothings Impossible, Tell them to slam a revolving door |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 9:15pm
| A year back we decided to rebuild the head on my 45, so my son who had the head shop did it. Valve stems were worn, guides were worn so we decided to replace both. So with new guides we took four real good used 302 valves, four real good used chevy valves with the new guides and built the head. I don't think he would have done it for someone else but he did it for me because he knows Joe and I think alike. Anyway, it runs like a champ. Would I suggest that someone else do it like that? Not hardly, but it does show that if done correctly you can get by with a lot, and that is what it appears that the machine shop did not do. I don't care how much a person thinks they know, if they don't put their heart into their work it will be poo. |
Posted By: TREVMAN
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2017 at 9:50pm
| My WD is by no stretch of imagination new. No valve seals and does not smoke on start up. Something does not add up here. Hope this turns out o.k., Trev. |