This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Allis Chalmers > Farm Equipment
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


D14 ignition question

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Charlie (NC) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Coastal NC
Points: 942
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie (NC) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D14 ignition question
    Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 12:35pm
I'm having trouble with my D-14 cranking.  Trying to trouble shoot, it appears I only
have current to the coil when the ignition key is released to go back to the run position but not while the starter is spinning the engine over.  That means it has to spin and hopefully catch when I release the key.  However, looking at the wiring diagram in my manual that appears to be correct.  What am I missing?  Is the ignition lug of the switch supposed to  stay hot in both the start and the run position?  If so I have a bad switch I guess.
 
If not can someone explain it to me?
 
Thanks
 
Charlie
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
CTuckerNWIL View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: NW Illinois
Points: 22825
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 1:00pm
It sounds like you have an external resistor wired in to the coil and you should have a line from the solenoid to the coil that supplies full voltage only when starting. If you have this set-up, I would replace the coil and external resistor with a coil that has the proper resistance built in and wire the key switch direct to the coil.
 
http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
Back to Top
Charlie (NC) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Coastal NC
Points: 942
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie (NC) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 1:15pm
No.  I have an internally resisted coil and one wire from the ign. lug on the switch to the coil.  It's a factory switch.  There is a wire from the switch to the solenoid and of course a hot wire to the switch.  That's it.  The ignition lug on the switch does not stay hot while the key is in the start position so there is no fire going to the coil while it's ginning over. However, it is wired up exactly like the IT&T manual show it and just like it's been for the 15 years of so I've owned it.   I have another switch off of something else and it works the same way.  No fire to the coil from the ign. lug when the key is in the start (solenoid) position.  That appears to be correct but I can't figure out how it can start without some fire going to the coil while the starter is spinning.
 
Thanks for your reply.  I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
Back to Top
cmsmoke View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level


Joined: 19 Feb 2011
Location: Johnstown, Pa
Points: 118
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmsmoke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 2:31pm
I shouldn't give advice without looking at a schematic, but it is possible for the coil to get its cranking voltage from the solenoid with an extra wire from the solenoid to the coil. Like a GM vehicle with a Delco-Remy starter.
Back to Top
Charlie (NC) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Coastal NC
Points: 942
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie (NC) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 3:04pm
cmsmoke,
 
I agree with you.  That is what I expected to find when I tore into it and what I  might do to fix it but I've had this tractor for over 15 years and it never was wired that way before.  I have two D-14 schematics.  One shows the 3 position ignition switch and the other shows an on off ignition switch and starter button.  Mine is wired just like the 3 position in the manual shows.  The push button version has a hot wire from the light circuit through the momentary switch to the solenoid.  I can't put a jumper from the solenoid lug on the switch to the ignition lug because the starter would not stop turning unless I put a diode in the line to make it a one way circuit.  I think your solution might be the best way to go.
 
I think the guy that I bought this tractor from built it from two.  It's got a D-15 rear on it with factory 3pt hitch.  No one and I mean NO ONE has worked on it since I've owned it so  know it is like it was when I got it.  I don't know.  It's a mystery to me.  Maybe it has always genned over and started when I released the key and I just wasn't conscious of it.  Who knows.
Back to Top
wfmurray View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Bostic NC
Points: 1225
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wfmurray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 3:48pm
May have low voltage in battery . Takes power away when cranking.
Back to Top
CTuckerNWIL View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: NW Illinois
Points: 22825
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 4:05pm
If the only power to the coil comes from the ignition switch, then you need a new switch that puts power there while in the start position or a hot wire from the solenoid with a diode. Are there any unused connections on the start switch that have power in both start and run position?
http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
Back to Top
Dave Richards (WV) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Fairmont, WV
Points: 881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Richards (WV) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 4:15pm
Put a jumper wire from the hot side of the solenoid to the coil.  That will tell you where the problem is.  Should be two wires from the switch, one marked ign and one for start.  Ign should be hot in both positions.
Back to Top
Charlie (NC) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Coastal NC
Points: 942
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie (NC) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 4:41pm
Thanks Dave,  You nailed the problem.  The original AC switch is NOT hot in both positions when cranking.  It's hot on the ignition position when the switch is turned to the first click on position.  When you turn it from there to the spring loaded start position that post goes hot but the other one goes cold.   I think I'm just going to put a wire from the the post between the solenoid to the starter to the coil and put a fuse in the line for safety and call it good. 
Back to Top
Charlie (NC) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Coastal NC
Points: 942
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie (NC) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 4:44pm
Ctucker,  there are only 3 posts on the factory switch.  BAT, IGN, and SOL.  Ing and Sol are never hot at the same time.   The other switch I'm trying to use has some other lugs but they all seem to be dead other than the 3 I've identified to use. 
Back to Top
D-17_Dave View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Mocksville NC
Points: 990
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote D-17_Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 4:58pm
Sounds more like you have an ACC. terminal wired to the ign. This goes off when in the cranking mode.
Yea, I can fix that.....
Back to Top
Chalmersbob View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Points: 2122
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chalmersbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 9:53pm
the early D14 had an OFF-ON switch and a push button with a 6 volt battery. The later model is the same as a D15 with a 12 volt battery and an acess, off, ign, and start position on the switch There should be power from the ignition terminal to the coil in both run and start positions, or else you have to be "lucky" for it to start. Bob
Back to Top
Ian View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level
Avatar

Joined: 28 Aug 2011
Location: Carroll, Ohio
Points: 86
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 10:54pm
My 58 is wired this way, with an on off switch and a push button.  The 60 has the start built into the switch like you're describing. I'll check tomorrow and see if I can figure out if mine does the same thing. 
1980 AC 616
1958 AC D14
1960 AC D14
1987 Cub 1204
1982 Cub 682
1974 Cub 154 Lo-Boy (SOLD)
Hauler: 1998 Dodge Ram2500 Cummins
Back to Top
Charlie (NC) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Coastal NC
Points: 942
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie (NC) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 5:33am
If anyone does figure it out please let me know.  All I can figure is I have a bad factory switch and the other one I have is not suitable for the job.  I mentioned running a wire from the start side of the solenoid to the coil but that won't work because, without a  diode in the circuit, the coil voltage  be trying to turn the starter.    I could switch it over to a push button I guess.  I'm trying to do this repair with stuff I have around without having to spend any money on it right now.   I'm not wired to an accessory lug at least not on the factory switch because it is labeled BAT, IGN, SOL.   The other switch I have was stolen from a junked out lawn tractor.  There is no reason for it to have an accessory position.
 
I don't know.
Back to Top
Steve in NJ View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Andover, NJ
Points: 11992
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 6:15am
Renew the Ignition switch.
Back to Top
Charlie (NC) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Coastal NC
Points: 942
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie (NC) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 10:09am
Thanks for everyone's help with the switch problem.  This morning I messed with the original switch some more and got it to where it had continuity on both the ING and SOL terminals when the key is turned all the way to start.  I guess it either had corroded inside or something.  It's working for now and now I know the wiring is correct also.  Looks like time for another switch soon.
Back to Top
Joe7077 View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Location: Green Bay, Wi.
Points: 26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe7077 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 1:38pm

I had exactly this same problem with my d-14 last fall.  the ignition switch was bad and i needed another one.  mine was converted from the original 6v to 12v by a pack of rabid monkeys.  i ended up changing out the switch, coil, battery, starter and almost all the wiring.  on the wierd side it started just fine when i'd let off the key for almost 3 months.

Back to Top
Hubert (Ga)engine7 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Jackson Cnty,GA
Points: 6464
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hubert (Ga)engine7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 2:02pm
As Steve said - a new switch is in order. Most, if not all, lawn tractors have magneto ignition so the run position may not have any power. When you turn it to the off position it grounds the magneto to kill the engine.
Just an old country boy saved by the grace of God.
Back to Top
Dave Richards (WV) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Fairmont, WV
Points: 881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Richards (WV) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 2:09pm
Charlie, you might try shooting some electronic contact cleaner into the switch.  Only place I have found it anymore is Radio Shack.
Back to Top
Gerald J. View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Hamilton Co, IA
Points: 5636
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 4:55pm
All Electronics and Antique Electronic Supply carry DeoxIT, one of the best contact cleaners.

Gerald J.
Back to Top
Ian View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level
Avatar

Joined: 28 Aug 2011
Location: Carroll, Ohio
Points: 86
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 7:31pm
Confirmed this as well with my 60, has voltage to the coil in both ign and start positions.  But you figured it out already, I'm too slow :)
1980 AC 616
1958 AC D14
1960 AC D14
1987 Cub 1204
1982 Cub 682
1974 Cub 154 Lo-Boy (SOLD)
Hauler: 1998 Dodge Ram2500 Cummins
Back to Top
Steve in NJ View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Andover, NJ
Points: 11992
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2012 at 7:03am
The problem with the Ignition switch is its to light for the load that runs through it. Like in any mass produced vehicle, its the best price from the vendors who build the system to AC specs. The switch was borderline. As time & the series of Tractors progressed and accessory circuitry was added to the Tractors, the switch was never upgraded. The loads got heavier, and the switch had more circuitry connected to it. In the wiring industry, we call that "stacking". More resistance, more heat. Away goes the wiring and the switch. Thats why you find a lot of cobbled wires behind the dash of the "D" series Tractors. We offer a heavy duty high amp Igntion switch with a plug for the "D" series Tractors to eliminate the stacking and to handle any load put through the system. Its offered as an option on our "D" series wiring systems, and its an excellent upgrade. Instead of just 4 terminals like the OEM one has, ours has 10 functional terminals, and one grounding terminal. Fits right in the dash to replace the OEM unit. If interested, drop us a line... The switch and plug kit with connectors runs $55. bucks.  HTH
Back to Top
Stan IL&TN View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Elvis Land
Points: 6730
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2012 at 7:29am
Cycle the switch back and forth about 50 times or until your hand hurts.  This will often clean the contacts.  Switches not used very often tend to corrode and pit where those used often tend to stay good.
1957 WD45 dad's first AC

1968 one-seventy

1956 F40 Ferguson
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum