D14 ignition question
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48762
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Topic: D14 ignition question
Posted By: Charlie (NC)
Subject: D14 ignition question
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 12:35pm
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I'm having trouble with my D-14 cranking. Trying to trouble shoot, it appears I only have current to the coil when the ignition key is released to go back to the run position but not while the starter is spinning the engine over. That means it has to spin and hopefully catch when I release the key. However, looking at the wiring diagram in my manual that appears to be correct. What am I missing? Is the ignition lug of the switch supposed to stay hot in both the start and the run position? If so I have a bad switch I guess. If not can someone explain it to me? Thanks Charlie
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Replies:
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 1:00pm
It sounds like you have an external resistor wired in to the coil and you should have a line from the solenoid to the coil that supplies full voltage only when starting. If you have this set-up, I would replace the coil and external resistor with a coil that has the proper resistance built in and wire the key switch direct to the coil.
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Posted By: Charlie (NC)
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 1:15pm
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No. I have an internally resisted coil and one wire from the ign. lug on the switch to the coil. It's a factory switch. There is a wire from the switch to the solenoid and of course a hot wire to the switch. That's it. The ignition lug on the switch does not stay hot while the key is in the start position so there is no fire going to the coil while it's ginning over. However, it is wired up exactly like the IT&T manual show it and just like it's been for the 15 years of so I've owned it. I have another switch off of something else and it works the same way. No fire to the coil from the ign. lug when the key is in the start (solenoid) position. That appears to be correct but I can't figure out how it can start without some fire going to the coil while the starter is spinning. Thanks for your reply. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
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Posted By: cmsmoke
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 2:31pm
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I shouldn't give advice without looking at a schematic, but it is possible for the coil to get its cranking voltage from the solenoid with an extra wire from the solenoid to the coil. Like a GM vehicle with a Delco-Remy starter.
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Posted By: Charlie (NC)
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 3:04pm
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cmsmoke, I agree with you. That is what I expected to find when I tore into it and what I might do to fix it but I've had this tractor for over 15 years and it never was wired that way before. I have two D-14 schematics. One shows the 3 position ignition switch and the other shows an on off ignition switch and starter button. Mine is wired just like the 3 position in the manual shows. The push button version has a hot wire from the light circuit through the momentary switch to the solenoid. I can't put a jumper from the solenoid lug on the switch to the ignition lug because the starter would not stop turning unless I put a diode in the line to make it a one way circuit. I think your solution might be the best way to go. I think the guy that I bought this tractor from built it from two. It's got a D-15 rear on it with factory 3pt hitch. No one and I mean NO ONE has worked on it since I've owned it so know it is like it was when I got it. I don't know. It's a mystery to me. Maybe it has always genned over and started when I released the key and I just wasn't conscious of it. Who knows.
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Posted By: wfmurray
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 3:48pm
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May have low voltage in battery . Takes power away when cranking.
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 4:05pm
If the only power to the coil comes from the ignition switch, then you need a new switch that puts power there while in the start position or a hot wire from the solenoid with a diode. Are there any unused connections on the start switch that have power in both start and run position?
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Posted By: Dave Richards (WV)
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 4:15pm
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Put a jumper wire from the hot side of the solenoid to the coil. That will tell you where the problem is. Should be two wires from the switch, one marked ign and one for start. Ign should be hot in both positions.
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Posted By: Charlie (NC)
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 4:41pm
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Thanks Dave, You nailed the problem. The original AC switch is NOT hot in both positions when cranking. It's hot on the ignition position when the switch is turned to the first click on position. When you turn it from there to the spring loaded start position that post goes hot but the other one goes cold. I think I'm just going to put a wire from the the post between the solenoid to the starter to the coil and put a fuse in the line for safety and call it good.
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Posted By: Charlie (NC)
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 4:44pm
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Ctucker, there are only 3 posts on the factory switch. BAT, IGN, and SOL. Ing and Sol are never hot at the same time. The other switch I'm trying to use has some other lugs but they all seem to be dead other than the 3 I've identified to use.
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Posted By: D-17_Dave
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 4:58pm
Sounds more like you have an ACC. terminal wired to the ign. This goes off when in the cranking mode.
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Yea, I can fix that.....
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Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 9:53pm
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the early D14 had an OFF-ON switch and a push button with a 6 volt battery. The later model is the same as a D15 with a 12 volt battery and an acess, off, ign, and start position on the switch There should be power from the ignition terminal to the coil in both run and start positions, or else you have to be "lucky" for it to start. Bob
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Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 10:54pm
My 58 is wired this way, with an on off switch and a push button. The 60 has the start built into the switch like you're describing. I'll check tomorrow and see if I can figure out if mine does the same thing.
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1980 AC 616
1958 AC D14
1960 AC D14
1987 Cub 1204
1982 Cub 682
1974 Cub 154 Lo-Boy (SOLD)
Hauler: 1998 Dodge Ram2500 Cummins
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Posted By: Charlie (NC)
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 5:33am
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If anyone does figure it out please let me know. All I can figure is I have a bad factory switch and the other one I have is not suitable for the job. I mentioned running a wire from the start side of the solenoid to the coil but that won't work because, without a diode in the circuit, the coil voltage be trying to turn the starter. I could switch it over to a push button I guess. I'm trying to do this repair with stuff I have around without having to spend any money on it right now. I'm not wired to an accessory lug at least not on the factory switch because it is labeled BAT, IGN, SOL. The other switch I have was stolen from a junked out lawn tractor. There is no reason for it to have an accessory position. I don't know.
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 6:15am
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Renew the Ignition switch.
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Posted By: Charlie (NC)
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 10:09am
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Thanks for everyone's help with the switch problem. This morning I messed with the original switch some more and got it to where it had continuity on both the ING and SOL terminals when the key is turned all the way to start. I guess it either had corroded inside or something. It's working for now and now I know the wiring is correct also. Looks like time for another switch soon.
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Posted By: Joe7077
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 1:38pm
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I had exactly this same problem with my d-14 last fall. the ignition switch was bad and i needed another one. mine was converted from the original 6v to 12v by a pack of rabid monkeys. i ended up changing out the switch, coil, battery, starter and almost all the wiring. on the wierd side it started just fine when i'd let off the key for almost 3 months.
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Posted By: Hubert (Ga)engine7
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 2:02pm
As Steve said - a new switch is in order. Most, if not all, lawn tractors have magneto ignition so the run position may not have any power. When you turn it to the off position it grounds the magneto to kill the engine.
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Just an old country boy saved by the grace of God.
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Posted By: Dave Richards (WV)
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 2:09pm
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Charlie, you might try shooting some electronic contact cleaner into the switch. Only place I have found it anymore is Radio Shack.
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Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 4:55pm
All Electronics and Antique Electronic Supply carry DeoxIT, one of the best contact cleaners.
Gerald J.
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Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 7:31pm
Confirmed this as well with my 60, has voltage to the coil in both ign and start positions. But you figured it out already, I'm too slow :)
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1980 AC 616
1958 AC D14
1960 AC D14
1987 Cub 1204
1982 Cub 682
1974 Cub 154 Lo-Boy (SOLD)
Hauler: 1998 Dodge Ram2500 Cummins
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2012 at 7:03am
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The problem with the Ignition switch is its to light for the load that runs through it. Like in any mass produced vehicle, its the best price from the vendors who build the system to AC specs. The switch was borderline. As time & the series of Tractors progressed and accessory circuitry was added to the Tractors, the switch was never upgraded. The loads got heavier, and the switch had more circuitry connected to it. In the wiring industry, we call that "stacking". More resistance, more heat. Away goes the wiring and the switch. Thats why you find a lot of cobbled wires behind the dash of the "D" series Tractors. We offer a heavy duty high amp Igntion switch with a plug for the "D" series Tractors to eliminate the stacking and to handle any load put through the system. Its offered as an option on our "D" series wiring systems, and its an excellent upgrade. Instead of just 4 terminals like the OEM one has, ours has 10 functional terminals, and one grounding terminal. Fits right in the dash to replace the OEM unit. If interested, drop us a line... The switch and plug kit with connectors runs $55. bucks. HTH
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Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2012 at 7:29am
Cycle the switch back and forth about 50 times or until your hand hurts. This will often clean the contacts. Switches not used very often tend to corrode and pit where those used often tend to stay good.
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1957 WD45 dad's first AC
1968 one-seventy
1956 F40 Ferguson
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