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Duane R 
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Joined: 19 Oct 2023
Location: Alexis, IL
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 Topic: B vs C tractor
Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 7:40pm |
This is my 2nd post since I purchased my B tractor in late October. I think it requires everything. But it is a great project. My current issue is that i question whether i have a B or a C. From reviewing a lot of post plus other internet and manual information I may have a Frankenstein tractor. Can you help me determine what i actually have?
1- S/N is C38660 which i believe is a 1940 model if it's a B 2- Engine s/n is CE50966G which should be a 125 cu in gas engine 3- Steering box is in front of gas tank behind engine which i take is a B 4- Front end is wide front wishbone style which is typical of a B. 5- Rear wheels are a 5 bolt pattern which is C characteristic. 6- Brakes are foot pedals only, a left and right pedal on right side. I saw somewhere where B's had hand brakes. 7- Seat is a wide rectangle, not a pan type so that indicates a B typically. 8- no hydraulics, just the curved drawbar. The motor is frozen with two sleeves blown out due to water in the block. So that's my biggest first step.
On top of this, i was told this tractor had a 12V conversion. However it has a 12 volt battery but also a generator. The starter is 6V but it also has an upright distributor and coil. Starter is a pull rod. there is no key switch. Generator is a one wire configuration. Electric box has a couple non-original switches. (no headlights).
Sorry for the length of post but I'm struggling to figure what I need for identifying to right parts to get. I know there is not a big difference but I'd at least like to promote it for what it is. It's a great little (rusty) tractor and i look forward to working on it but any comments would sure be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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wade89
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Location: Northern MN
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Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 8:00pm |
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Is the rear track width wider than the front? Sounds like You have a C with a B front half.
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Duane R
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Location: Alexis, IL
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Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 8:12pm |
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Just measured. Rear tires are 5 ft (60 in) center to center. Front is 45 inches center to center.
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steve(ill)
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Location: illinois
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Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 8:24pm |
the C in the serial number means the transmission was a "C"..... the Wishbone front end is off a "B".... You said your rear axle center to center is 60 inches.. That should normally be a "C" ... a B is closer to 60 inches TOTAL WIDTH ...
If a "C" is set to that narrow of track, the axle end ( 5 bolts) would be at the very outside of the tire.... If its a "B", the bolt would be setting in the center of the tire ( side to side)...
Both tractors were 6 volt, and a 12 volt battery can be installed and the old generator will barely keep up... Or it could be just an idler and they were charging it in the shop every week..... Wide seat is both tractors.... PAN did not come original on the B or C.
Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Dec 2023 at 8:46pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 8:26pm |
the rear hubs of a "C" have a big DISH to them.... the "B" is basically flat with a very small dish. -----------------------
Rear tires are 5 ft (60 in) center to center. Front is 45 inches center to center.
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I think you have a "B" front axle ( probably engine and torque tube also) and a "C" rear axle ( including the trans).
"C" hub
Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Dec 2023 at 8:48pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 8:28pm |
The "C" has two steering boxes... one below the gas tank with a rod to a box in front of the motor and an arm sticking out the side of the radiator wrap around.... The "B" gear box under the gas tank has the steering rod going to the left front king pin on the wheel.
"C" steering... note the steer box under the gas tank has an arm that points UP.
Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Dec 2023 at 8:31pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 8:39pm |
"B" can have a 5 bolt pattern rear hub, but MOST were 2 inch spline shaft with a BIG NUT retainer.. and FLAT HUB...
"B" only had hand brakes prior to 1940 ..... MOST had foot brakes as did ALL of the "C".
Curved Drawbar will be about a foot WIDER on a C as compared to a B.... but same basic design. ----------------------
couple photos and additional info
Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Dec 2023 at 8:41pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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HudCo
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Posted: 16 Dec 2023 at 11:00pm |
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some pictures would help
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Duane R
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Joined: 19 Oct 2023
Location: Alexis, IL
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 7:31am |
I don’t think I have been given access to post pictures. I think I read that in the rules.
Thanks Steve for the instructions. Here's attempt to post some pictures......Oops, no good. i'll try to resize them.
Still too big. I'll try to make the next one smaller. So here's the serial number. It has a "C" in front on the number. Does that mean a Model C ??? C38660 If it's a B, it's a 1940. If a C, it's a 1946..  me
This is the front end of the tractor. It appears to me to be obvious "B".
This shows the steering arms. Again looks obvious "B" to me.
Ok, here are the rear wheels. The bolts on the center hub are recessed only about an inch so that probably answers the 60" on center comments.
Edited by Duane R - 17 Dec 2023 at 2:49pm
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 8:29am |
On your last post... click on the "POST OPTIONS" Icon above your post.... Choose " Edit Post"... you will get a new page with your last post that you can Edit... Click on the "GREEN TREE" icon at the top of the new page... Down in the left hand corner of the Gree Tree page, you can search for your photo... I keep mine on my desktop when i am going to post them...... try to RESIZE them to 800 x 600 pixels or less.
If your photo is TOO BIG to upload.. open it in PAINT or other program and RESIZE it and save... prior to uploading to ALLIS site.
Edited by steve(ill) - 17 Dec 2023 at 9:28am
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 8:32am |
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Look at the BIG DISH on the rear hubs..... Look at the STEERING Arm below the gas tank ( up or down)... look at the radiator wrap around and see if it has a hole and arm on the left side....... those are the tell tale signs... We already know the trans is a "C" due to the serial number.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 9:09am |
 Duane R wrote:
... From reviewing a lot of post plus other internet and manual information I may have a Frankenstein tractor... |
I believe this is correct
Duane R wrote:
On top of this, i was told this tractor had a 12V conversion. However it has a 12 volt battery but also a generator... Generator is a one wire configuration...
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Hmmm... some alternators only have one wire but generators typically use at least two. Pictures would be most helpful.
My Model C measures right at 5' center to center at the rear wheels.
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Duane R
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 9:22am |
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I will try to send some photos this afternoon. Thanks.
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HudCo
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 10:14am |
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my c had the dished wheels when i got it with the five bolt pattern for the hubs and i put flat cast wheels on from an a with the five bolt hubs when i put four loop wheels on
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Duane R
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 2:58pm |
ok, those are my pictures. Struggled a little with sizing but thanks for help from Steve.
And Les asked about the one wire generator. The electric motor repair shop said it was wired that way as the second wire is grounded to the generator. He said that was because there were no headlights. He also said I would burn it out with a 12V battery.
So it seems that the tractor has a B front end and a C rear end (by serial #). If that's the case, what do i call my tractor, a B or a C ???
I did find another B tractor complete. Another option would be to buy that one and use mine as a parts tractor. My motor is stuck and has two piston sleeves that are blown out from water in the motor. (froze). Don't know if the block is any good yet.
Appreciate all your expertise!!
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 4:15pm |
YES... you have a B front end, steering box and probably the motor..... The transmission and rear end / differential / wheel hubs are all from a model "C"..... you can call it what ever you want.. Mix and Match is common between the B and C over the last 75 years.
Dont have to be strictly a B or a C... Depends on what you want to do with it.. Do you need the WIDE rear end, or narrower.... If your looking at another B, it probably will have flat rear hubs that press onto a 2 inch splined shaft with a BIG NUT to retain it.. grab the top of the tire and PUSH toward the seat back and forth to see if there is any WIGGLE in the spline ... That can potentially be a wear spot..
Motors are the same at this point.. Dont matter if it is 1940- 1946 or 1952... Your going to need new pistons and liners and rings.. Most of the "KITS" are now oversize at 3-9/16 bore compared to the original 3-1/2 ... and you will get the NEW compression ratio, where original could have been 5, 6 ,7 to 1... lots of random numbers over the years.
The generator story is nonsence.. The generator has two terminals "A" and "F" ... The "A" is power out to the battery... the "F" is grounded at the light switch box thru a resistor to get 3 amp charge.. If you ground it DIRECTLY it will put out 8-9 amps continuous.. Too much for a battery Constantly....( do you have a resistor on the ground wire at the gen ??)... And if it is setup for 3 amp charge, the generator can put out about 15 volts so can be used on a 12v battery... The BATTERY determines the generator output voltage.. It acts as the REGULATOR.
Edited by steve(ill) - 17 Dec 2023 at 4:31pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 4:23pm |
Your steering box, steering arm ,and king pin connections are all B... so i would assume everything forward of the torque tube was off a B tractor...There is an extra plate on the side of the motor .. That is not original.. Could be some type of mount for equip.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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HudCo
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 6:00pm |
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it will still make a nice tractor
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Duane R
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 6:06pm |
 Steve, Thanks for the additional comments. I think I'll call it a B because of the front end. I'll probably see if i can find someone to overhaul the motor and move forward with what i have. It has a Woods L306 belly mower that i have already refurbished. Funny you noticed the water valve. Apparently prior owner couldn't find a 5/8" nut anywhere. LOL.
Just FYI, I took pictures of the generator so you could see what the outside wiring look like. I haven't open the electric box by the steering wheel but the overall wiring is a mess.
Thanks again all.....
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 6:25pm |
the original wiring looked something like this... The "cut out" is a switch that allows generator voltage to go to the battery, but does not let the battery drain backward to the generator when motor is OFF........ The LIGHT SWITCH is a resistor and bypass ground wire.. Normally you go thru the resistor (F WIRE) to ground and get 3 amps.. When you turn the lights on the F wire is directly grounded and puts out 8 amps... If you dont have light, you need to install a big resistor in the F line... or use the generator as a belt tightener only and recharge weekly with a remote charger..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Duane R
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 7:42pm |
As a final note, I started with the mower deck first to ease my way into this. Before and after. So Stage 1 is done. Stages 2-20 are next. LOL
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 8:32pm |
Duane R wrote:
...And Les asked about the one wire generator. The electric motor repair shop said it was wired that way as the second wire is grounded to the generator. He said that was because there were no headlights. He also said I would burn it out with a 12V battery... |
Apparently someone has wired the field directly to ground at the generator; thus "Full Fields" the generator at all times and is not a "Good Thing"  |
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AllisFreak MN
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Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 8:36pm |
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Wow the mower turned out beautiful ! If that's any indication you'll do just fine on the tractor too.
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'49 A-C WD, '51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, 1968 A-C One-Seventy, '82 A-C 6060, '75 A-C 7040, A-C #3 sickle mower, 2 A-C 701 wagons, '78 Gleaner M2
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 19 Dec 2023 at 9:58am |
I'm coming into this a little late, but looking at the job you did on that mower, you'll do fine with the Tractor. As Les mentioned, I wouldn't leave that Generator like that. When that thing is running, you'll be able to have breakfast on that thing it'll be so hot. I'd run from that Auto Electric place. If you're going to keep the Tractor 6V, have the Gennie rebuilt the correct way. If you're thinking on moving to 12V, you can either have the Gennie changed over to 12V or go with an Alternator. Your choice. I offer complete wiring kits and also complete rebuilding services if interested. Go luck with your B project! They are a lot of work, but they are a lot fun as well!! I'm a B guy too!
Steve@B&B bb-customcircuits.com
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Duane R
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Posted: 19 Dec 2023 at 10:27am |
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Thanks Steve. After I figure out my options on the motor, I’m sure I’ll need help on the electric. The battery and distributor are 12v and the starter and generator are 6v. I’d like to have 12v if I can find an alternator to fit the brackets. My wiring harness is a real mess, all frayed and rotted. I’ll get back to you then. Thanks!
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 19 Dec 2023 at 12:27pm |
The DELCO CS121 or 130 is a very small popular alternator used for conversion.. Im sure Steve sells a "KIT" with the bracket if you need.. The DENSO mini is also a popular alternator option.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 19 Dec 2023 at 1:40pm |
No problem Duane! Be glad to help ya out. If that's Steve's B model, that right there will give you the incentive alone. That bugger is sweet! If you keep the B steering, you can use a number of different Alternators. I offer a kit for the B & IB, and I also offer a kit for the C &CA with the steering drag link that runs down the side. That particular kit I use either the "CS" Delco or the pint size Denso. Customer's choice... Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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