This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity. | ||||||
The Forum | Parts and Services | Unofficial Allis Store | Tractor Shows | Serial Numbers | History |
Pressing Force Required: |
Post Reply |
Author | |
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 07 Feb 2023 at 10:28pm |
How much force is required to break the sprockets free of the splines on an early HD-21?
Thanks,
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Sponsored Links | |
Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41608 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
https://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/AC_HD21P_PARTS_12904-16000_70634416.PDF
I see it's on a tapered spline shaft so after nut is removed some force will be needed - https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/hd11-sprocket-removal_topic44721.html Edited by Coke-in-MN - 08 Feb 2023 at 12:02am |
|
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thanks, I have a new 60 Ton hollow ram cylinder ordered as my current 30 Ton is not enough force for this job on either side.
Service manual lists an OTC 50 Ton setup which I've somewhat copied.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 789 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
We used a 50 ton press to dismantle the idler from my Son-in-law's HD5G; the gauge on the press indicated 40 tons of force before it popped loose.
I suspect your sprockets will require substantially more force than that. |
|
CAL(KS)
Orange Level Joined: 18 Sep 2009 Location: Chapman, KS Points: 3786 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
apply force gradually while smacking ring with a sledge hammer. greatly lessens the force needed than just pulling on it.
|
|
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
|
DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 31119 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Shock adds greatly to remove adhesion on splines. More or less grow together over time.
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
According to the pressure gauge, and cylinder bore size calculations, 32.6 tons and shock loading the sprocket(s) with a 12# sledge wasn't enough.....
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
AC Mel
Orange Level Access Joined: 23 Jan 2010 Location: N.Ca. Points: 1101 |
Post Options
Thanks(2)
|
Rob.....Are you working on a 21 now?....Get that 11B done...you're as bad as us. I feel compelled to speak....50 tons usually does it.....If you don't have a service manual.....something missing from the discussion here is to make sure you leave the sprocket nut on the shaft backing it off appox 1/2''....as per all the service manuals for all the different size tractors. 50 years ago...an Allis Chalmers service mechanic...working in our yard.,told us the story of a mechanic in there dealership shop that pulled a 21 sprocket with out the nut on it to catch it. Went 20 feet across the floor impacting a service truck on the drivers side....took that door... the steering wheel column...and most of the seat through the window of the passenger door. The reason I remember it so well...and it made such an impression on me at the time was....the week before he showed up to shim and redo our HD11 finals..we had pulled the sprocket of of this 11 (no service manual) using bottle jacks and sledge hammers. Very fortunately we were standing there cussing at it...when it blew off and into the tractor we were taking turns sitting on while the other guy hammered on it. So (been there..done that) We do finally have all the correct pullers now..after 50 years. To this day I get the pullers set up....and get the pump behind the tractor as far as I can and literally turn my head the other way tell it pops...any size tractor too. BE CAREFUL!!
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Hi Mel, yes I am working with two HD-21 series tractors now. One is a well worn but running parts machine, and the other will be very nice once I get the sprockets rebuilt and a P&B turn performed along with a couple of bottom rollers that are suspect. This is my first attempt doing the task using my owned tooling, but have done the same job numerous times in the past with employer furnished press/pullers.
I've not seen a sprocket take flight myself as have always used a restraint of some sort to preclude this. Had to suffer the agony of training films by IH when servicing their undercarriage and some was right convincing. I have a 20' supply hose for my electric hydraulic pump and 15' lanyard to control it so there is a bit of distance involved to remain clear. I have relocated the 11B to the family property under a dedicated "carport" constructed for it. This tractor will be busy later in the year and will come back home for minor work in the fall and over the 2023-2024 winter months. Thanks for the tips.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
darrel in ND
Orange Level Joined: 22 Nov 2009 Location: Hebron, ND Points: 8636 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Anyone looking for some practice, want to make some use of your pullers, I need to pull a sprocket on my HD5G!!LOL
DARREL |
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
You'll need a press to reseat the sprockets also as this will take upwards of 30 ton on that size tractor. It can be done with a wrench and long extension bar but it's not the safest way to do the job.....
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Ian Beale
Orange Level Joined: 03 Oct 2011 Location: New South Wales Points: 973 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
BE CAREFULL also goes with dealing with track frame recoil springs
|
|
Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41608 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
On one HD5G I just welded the new sprocket ring onto the old spokes after cutting old sprocket off . Cut a section of new sprocket ring to slip over the truck frame , then welded it back together when welding spokes to ring .
Other 5G I cut the truck frame to put on replacement sprocket and replace axle , made a plate to bolt to truck frame to keep alignment right - then cut frame , got everything back together , bolted cut piece on , welded truck frame beck together and removed plate . Tightening the sprocket nut called for 1,200 ft lbs of tension so used 10 ft length of pipe on my wrench handle - went back about 9 ft from nut and put my weight onto pipe until nut stopped turning . then a little extra force to make sure it was tight . On the 5 sprocket with large splines the sprocket came off easily with just shock from sledge and bottle jack and chain . |
|
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Don't know if I've ever seen anyone "notch" out the sprocket ring to clear the track frame, but cannot see why it wouldn't work as long as everything were kept in alignment when welding back together. The track frames are already removed from the tractor I'm attempting to pull the first sprockets from now, so all open. Needing to get this one broke down pretty good as the other tractor had a leaking oil seal and has damaged parts internal.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
All four sprockets pulled free with a borrowed "Enerpac" press/puller I copied mine from.
42.6 tons of hydraulic force with sledgehammer assist to break the one free I was stalled on. Nice to have the correct tools eliminating guesswork, but all the same, I hate borrowing anything so will continue with my build.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Owner has discovered the damage and cost of foregoing repairs with leaking finals on the newer tractor. The left final has probably been ran dry a lot more than I know till disintegration of the parts began. Overall it looks as if the purchase of the donor tractor was a good investment for parts availability, (or lack thereof).
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Ian Beale
Orange Level Joined: 03 Oct 2011 Location: New South Wales Points: 973 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
There was a nest of HD 21's around here -not me, so this is a bit vague.
From discussions with some of the owners, while you are in there check the eyes for the bull gear shaft bearings for egg shaping. Seems that HD 21's prior to 21C are prone to this and, if they are stretched, various bolts won't stay tight leading to oil leaks and other problems. Seems it didn't happen with HD 16's.
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thanks Ian; I will pass that along. Both of these tractors are AC branded and I'm assuming early. Both are orange, direct drive and very similar in appearance/layout. Not really my job as I am only welding up the sprockets, machining the same, and doing a P&B turn for the owner.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Picked up another job today while delivering a farm tractor after repairs. This one is a JI Case 1155D Track Loader. Supposedly runs well but hasn't been out of the shed since summer of 2017. Needs minor undercarriage work but a P&B turn and new drive sprockets will take care of it. Idlers and rollers appear fair, but serviceable. What is really needed is line boring of the linkage arms for the bucket apparatus as they are very loose. This is work I'm set up for so we'll see what the future holds.
Don't know if I'll make purchase of this one, or do the needed repairs as they are done with it and will sell it to me priced "fair". They purchased it in 1993 so a bit of history comes along too.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Case Construction dealer that I've known for many years called back today and has located a set of NOS JI Case drive sprockets for this tractor for $300.00 each. Has other parts too so I need to compile a list of possibles.
Parts are in a weathertight storage trailer with a long time customer of his. Sometimes it pays to keep in touch with your customer base once a sale is complete. |
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
Set my line boring welder up to weld up the gullets of two drive sprockets today and it really works slick. It took about an hour each sprocket but the weld deposition is perfect with good overlap, and being a machine weld, is very even. I then hand welded "crowns" which will serve as teeth tips when machined to size.
Going to drop these by the machine shop tomorrow and they'll be annealed, machined to size, then flame hardened and I should have the P&B's turned by that time to reassemble everything back into a running tractor. Owner tells me he and son have a lot of the finals parts swapped over, but it's a bigger job than they anticipated. No "egg shaping" or wollering of anything was found I'm told. The owner is a pretty good wrench on heavy trucks so I'm running with his knowledge as I've not seen anything broken down past the undercarriage and sprocket pull myself.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Welded up sprockets went in the furnace today for annealing. I believe they are still heating and will slowly cool over the weekend for machining work next week.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
Son in law and track man/friend did the P&B turn over the weekend while wife, daughter, grand daughters, and I went through the Caterpillar, and riverfront museum(s) in Peoria. No word yet on the sprockets as still early, but I'll pick the tracks up later today or tomorrow.
I'm not overly fond of reusing track shoe fasteners but there really isn't much precluding the practice with just a few being replaced that have been run loose.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Sprockets have been annealed and are now ready for machining. I don't know if they will be worked with tomorrow or not, but I'm told everything looks good. Talked to tractor owner and they are ready for sprocket install. I'm told all backlash and bearing preloads are within specifications.
They do have original AC manuals for the tractor series that were furnished with the tractor being used as a donor.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81323 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
what did you think of the Museum ? Have never been there, but thought about it .
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Codger
Orange Level Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2041 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Bunch of "rah rah" to me and really nothing special. Caterpillar I'm talking. The mine truck is a mockup and there are a few restored displays, but it mostly showcases their later models and technologies. Far too small to really have a lot.
The riverfront museum is usually interesting as they highlight different things. Last spring it was T Rex and other prehistoric life. This time is is the study of the planet Mars and exploration of the same.
|
|
That's All Folks!
|
|
Post Reply | |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |