Pressing Force Required:
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=193361
Printed Date: 27 Nov 2024 at 9:49am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Pressing Force Required:
Posted By: Codger
Subject: Pressing Force Required:
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2023 at 10:28pm
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How much force is required to break the sprockets free of the splines on an early HD-21?
Thanks,
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Replies:
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2023 at 11:59pm
https://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/AC_HD21P_PARTS_12904-16000_70634416.PDF%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/AC_HD21P_PARTS_12904-16000_70634416.PDF
I see it's on a tapered spline shaft so after nut is removed some force will be needed -
https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/hd11-sprocket-removal_topic44721.html
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 12:24am
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Thanks, I have a new 60 Ton hollow ram cylinder ordered as my current 30 Ton is not enough force for this job on either side.
Service manual lists an OTC 50 Ton setup which I've somewhat copied.
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Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 5:46am
We used a 50 ton press to dismantle the idler from my Son-in-law's HD5G; the gauge on the press indicated 40 tons of force before it popped loose.
I suspect your sprockets will require substantially more force than that.
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Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 7:19am
apply force gradually while smacking ring with a sledge hammer. greatly lessens the force needed than just pulling on it.
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 8:01am
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Shock adds greatly to remove adhesion on splines. More or less grow together over time.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 10:33am
According to the pressure gauge, and cylinder bore size calculations, 32.6 tons and shock loading the sprocket(s) with a 12# sledge wasn't enough.....
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Posted By: AC Mel
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 10:44am
Rob.....Are you working on a 21 now?....Get that 11B done...you're as bad as us. I feel compelled to speak....50 tons usually does it.....If you don't have a service manual.....something missing from the discussion here is to make sure you leave the sprocket nut on the shaft backing it off appox 1/2''....as per all the service manuals for all the different size tractors. 50 years ago...an Allis Chalmers service mechanic...working in our yard.,told us the story of a mechanic in there dealership shop that pulled a 21 sprocket with out the nut on it to catch it. Went 20 feet across the floor impacting a service truck on the drivers side....took that door... the steering wheel column...and most of the seat through the window of the passenger door. The reason I remember it so well...and it made such an impression on me at the time was....the week before he showed up to shim and redo our HD11 finals..we had pulled the sprocket of of this 11 (no service manual) using bottle jacks and sledge hammers. Very fortunately we were standing there cussing at it...when it blew off and into the tractor we were taking turns sitting on while the other guy hammered on it. So (been there..done that) We do finally have all the correct pullers now..after 50 years. To this day I get the pullers set up....and get the pump behind the tractor as far as I can and literally turn my head the other way tell it pops...any size tractor too. BE CAREFUL!!
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 12:05pm
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Hi Mel, yes I am working with two HD-21 series tractors now. One is a well worn but running parts machine, and the other will be very nice once I get the sprockets rebuilt and a P&B turn performed along with a couple of bottom rollers that are suspect. This is my first attempt doing the task using my owned tooling, but have done the same job numerous times in the past with employer furnished press/pullers.
I've not seen a sprocket take flight myself as have always used a restraint of some sort to preclude this. Had to suffer the agony of training films by IH when servicing their undercarriage and some was right convincing.
I have a 20' supply hose for my electric hydraulic pump and 15' lanyard to control it so there is a bit of distance involved to remain clear.
I have relocated the 11B to the family property under a dedicated "carport" constructed for it. This tractor will be busy later in the year and will come back home for minor work in the fall and over the 2023-2024 winter months.
Thanks for the tips.
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Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 2:56pm
Anyone looking for some practice, want to make some use of your pullers, I need to pull a sprocket on my HD5G!!LOL
DARREL
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 6:01pm
You'll need a press to reseat the sprockets also as this will take upwards of 30 ton on that size tractor. It can be done with a wrench and long extension bar but it's not the safest way to do the job.....
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Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 6:01pm
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BE CAREFULL also goes with dealing with track frame recoil springs
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Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2023 at 9:33pm
On one HD5G I just welded the new sprocket ring onto the old spokes after cutting old sprocket off . Cut a section of new sprocket ring to slip over the truck frame , then welded it back together when welding spokes to ring .
Other 5G I cut the truck frame to put on replacement sprocket and replace axle , made a plate to bolt to truck frame to keep alignment right - then cut frame , got everything back together , bolted cut piece on , welded truck frame beck together and removed plate .
Tightening the sprocket nut called for 1,200 ft lbs of tension so used 10 ft length of pipe on my wrench handle - went back about 9 ft from nut and put my weight onto pipe until nut stopped turning . then a little extra force to make sure it was tight .
On the 5 sprocket with large splines the sprocket came off easily with just shock from sledge and bottle jack and chain .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2023 at 12:48am
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Don't know if I've ever seen anyone "notch" out the sprocket ring to clear the track frame, but cannot see why it wouldn't work as long as everything were kept in alignment when welding back together. The track frames are already removed from the tractor I'm attempting to pull the first sprockets from now, so all open. Needing to get this one broke down pretty good as the other tractor had a leaking oil seal and has damaged parts internal.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2023 at 9:48am
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All four sprockets pulled free with a borrowed "Enerpac" press/puller I copied mine from.
42.6 tons of hydraulic force with sledgehammer assist to break the one free I was stalled on. Nice to have the correct tools eliminating guesswork, but all the same, I hate borrowing anything so will continue with my build.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 9:17am
Owner has discovered the damage and cost of foregoing repairs with leaking finals on the newer tractor. The left final has probably been ran dry a lot more than I know till disintegration of the parts began. Overall it looks as if the purchase of the donor tractor was a good investment for parts availability, (or lack thereof).
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Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 4:01pm
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There was a nest of HD 21's around here -not me, so this is a bit vague.
From discussions with some of the owners, while you are in there check the eyes for the bull gear shaft bearings for egg shaping. Seems that HD 21's prior to 21C are prone to this and, if they are stretched, various bolts won't stay tight leading to oil leaks and other problems. Seems it didn't happen with HD 16's. |
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 5:30pm
Thanks Ian; I will pass that along. Both of these tractors are AC branded and I'm assuming early. Both are orange, direct drive and very similar in appearance/layout. Not really my job as I am only welding up the sprockets, machining the same, and doing a P&B turn for the owner.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 5:20pm
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Picked up another job today while delivering a farm tractor after repairs. This one is a JI Case 1155D Track Loader. Supposedly runs well but hasn't been out of the shed since summer of 2017. Needs minor undercarriage work but a P&B turn and new drive sprockets will take care of it. Idlers and rollers appear fair, but serviceable. What is really needed is line boring of the linkage arms for the bucket apparatus as they are very loose. This is work I'm set up for so we'll see what the future holds.
Don't know if I'll make purchase of this one, or do the needed repairs as they are done with it and will sell it to me priced "fair". They purchased it in 1993 so a bit of history comes along too.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2023 at 6:06pm
Case Construction dealer that I've known for many years called back today and has located a set of NOS JI Case drive sprockets for this tractor for $300.00 each. Has other parts too so I need to compile a list of possibles. Parts are in a weathertight storage trailer with a long time customer of his.
Sometimes it pays to keep in touch with your customer base once a sale is complete.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2023 at 7:54pm
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Set my line boring welder up to weld up the gullets of two drive sprockets today and it really works slick. It took about an hour each sprocket but the weld deposition is perfect with good overlap, and being a machine weld, is very even. I then hand welded "crowns" which will serve as teeth tips when machined to size.
Going to drop these by the machine shop tomorrow and they'll be annealed, machined to size, then flame hardened and I should have the P&B's turned by that time to reassemble everything back into a running tractor. Owner tells me he and son have a lot of the finals parts swapped over, but it's a bigger job than they anticipated.
No "egg shaping" or wollering of anything was found I'm told. The owner is a pretty good wrench on heavy trucks so I'm running with his knowledge as I've not seen anything broken down past the undercarriage and sprocket pull myself.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2023 at 5:25pm
Welded up sprockets went in the furnace today for annealing. I believe they are still heating and will slowly cool over the weekend for machining work next week.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 7:25am
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Son in law and track man/friend did the P&B turn over the weekend while wife, daughter, grand daughters, and I went through the Caterpillar, and riverfront museum(s) in Peoria. No word yet on the sprockets as still early, but I'll pick the tracks up later today or tomorrow.
I'm not overly fond of reusing track shoe fasteners but there really isn't much precluding the practice with just a few being replaced that have been run loose.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 9:04pm
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Sprockets have been annealed and are now ready for machining. I don't know if they will be worked with tomorrow or not, but I'm told everything looks good. Talked to tractor owner and they are ready for sprocket install. I'm told all backlash and bearing preloads are within specifications.
They do have original AC manuals for the tractor series that were furnished with the tractor being used as a donor.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 9:17pm
what did you think of the Museum ? Have never been there, but thought about it .
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 10:24pm
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Bunch of "rah rah" to me and really nothing special. Caterpillar I'm talking. The mine truck is a mockup and there are a few restored displays, but it mostly showcases their later models and technologies. Far too small to really have a lot.
The riverfront museum is usually interesting as they highlight different things. Last spring it was T Rex and other prehistoric life. This time is is the study of the planet Mars and exploration of the same.
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