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bhuffaker1 
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 Topic: 8070 motor fail
Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:26am |
First off, I apologize if this is posted in the wrong place.
I need help. I have an 8070 that I have had for about 20 years. I live in Colorado and elevation is about 8000 ft above sea level. I have rebuilt the motor twice with in frame kits but I am not having much success. I have melted pistons, and now have one again and a bent rod. One injector will have to be taken out at machine shop. I cannot keep the motor cool. I have a new radiator in it, water pump, and new turbo. Tractor is solid everywhere else - just the motor - has about 8500 hours on it now..
THought about doing a conversion kit to an 8.3 cummins but those are expensive. THoughts?
Also thought about rebuilding the 426 but have no idea if I will have the same problems down the road? thought? Suggestions on a rebuild kit and where to get it? Send the motor to someone or exchange for a rebuilt/reman one?
Or Part out the tractor and move separate ways? LOL
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:31am |
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I have heard stories about the Ambac pump getting worn and timing screws up and melts pistons.Surely you has been rebuilt with THAT many hours? No expert here but your trouble sound like pump to me.
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DSeries4
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:33am |
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I would rebuild the 426 but go with an out of frame rebuild and a major OH kit.
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:34am |
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I did put a reman injection pump in it about 5 years ago. It is the Bosch. Also had all injectors tested, and it was timed to spec by dealer last time I had issues and had the head off.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:43am |
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Injectors in backwards. Timing advance stuck in retarded on the injection pump. Probably cannot be over-powered at high altitudes for lack of air. 170 PTO HP max. Those engines weren't that bad, so something hasn't been corrected and your getting the same results.
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Acdiesel
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:48am |
so your primary common failure is melted pistons, correct?
Dan
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 12:22pm |
Last time no piston melt. Blew head gasket..
Biggest problem I have here is there is no one that works on Allis or know them really well. I wish I could just send this to someone and let them overhaul it and then they could send it back... I would even be willing to entertain a rebuilt motor by SOMEONE who know what they are doing.....
I can get the motor out but that is about where I stop.
I wish I was a big time mechanic but I am defiantly a back yard kind of guy. I am so grateful to each of you who are taking the time to reply to this. I truly appreciate your kindness...
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 1:21pm |
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Reliance Works? in Wisconsin has complete engines I think.
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 1:40pm |
Will this motor fit my 8070?
I know the injection pump is a rosa master, etc. but I have a 7080 that I believe has this motor in it and it has over 11k hours. Motor has been rock solid.....
THANKS................
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 6:50pm |
Bob King from Reliance called me. Super nice guy and very knowledgable. Willing to help. I am not sure what I am going to do. He can rebuild my Engine and change out injetion pump, new injectors, new rebuild, new turbo,etc. Basically a new engine for about 10k. I have also found a good used motor out of a 7050 for abou 4k delivered to me. Low hours, no blow by and good compression and oil pressure. 1 year guarantee on motor. If I go with the 7050 motor anyone had any experience in doing this? pointers?
What's everyone's thoughts? I said in an earlier post that I really like the way my 7080 runs with almost zero issues......
As like everyone, finances are tight. I think I can get the motors swaped myself.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
Brad
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Amos
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 7:24pm |
A 7050 engine will not have the power of your 8070 engine, and only a fool would swap your injection pump and injectors onto any engine that had issues like yours without having them repaired or at least tested by a reputable shop, assuming they would interchange to acquire the same hp.
I am a little different than you in skill set, as I build all my engines myself using only a machine shop and injection pump shop to do the things I don't have equipment for. I would build up another engine, using what is left of your original, if it was me.
One thing stands out to me, you are overheating the combustion chamber as melting pistons and blowing head gaskets are not common on normal operating conditions for these engines in my experience. I have had one engine I built come back to me and it had two wrist pins seized in their pistons and four pistons had oil carmalized on the underside of them. Now when they told me it had a tick in it I went to look at it and i added a gallon and a half of oil to it and two gallons of antifreeze, this is after 1500 hours on a outframe rebuild. Obviously it was overheated and I know exactly how it happened as I could here it a concession away... I think Dr's post above is likely where you will find the cause of your issue. I wish you the best of luck, and I would definitely not be afraid to run one of Bob's engines in my tractors, I have heard excellent things about them and he has updated this series to where the technology of today allows, keeping them simple with available reliable parts too!
Funds are always tight, but when you have to half way fix it twice, well that's kind of wasting funds you didn't have to begin with, to waste.
Edited by Amos - 03 Jun 2021 at 7:26pm
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Mikez
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 8:58pm |
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welcome to forum. Good luck with your issue. Hope after you get it resolved you stick around.
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Lonn
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:09pm |
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One thing, you have some of the best people here on the forum to point you the way!
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:32pm |
Thank you. I have actually had a login for quite a few years. It would not let me reset my password for some reason so I had to use another email and create a new user......
It is a great form and I have enjoyed it for years now....
Brad
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:34pm |
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THank you for the advise. I appreciate it.
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Dkienzle
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:42pm |
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If you go the 8.3 Cummins route, keep the hp below 200. Had a 7080 with a 8.3 and it would Dyno 250 but after 1300hrs it started breaking things in the rear end. Personally I would out of frame what you have by a competent mechanic if you can find one.
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victoryallis
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 10:58pm |
 Dkienzle wrote:
If you go the 8.3 Cummins route, keep the hp below 200. Had a 7080 with a 8.3 and it would Dyno 250 but after 1300hrs it started breaking things in the rear end. Personally I would out of frame what you have by a competent mechanic if you can find one. |
I have Derek’s neighbors tractor I echo the horsepower comment. My 7580 with 8.3 was pushing close to 300hp the drivetrain doesn’t like that. If the Reliance your talking to is the same ones that sell engine kits burn the phone number they will just add to your misery. Someone should be able to make a 426 work for you.
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 03 Jun 2021 at 11:26pm |
It is not the same company... Here is their website. https://relianceworksllc.com/
I believe this guy is the real deal. Just not sure I can afford it. I know that the motor from the 7050 will not have quite the hp but I do not need more. I run a round baler with it and do not farm with it much anymore.
Really toying with just putting the 7050 motor in it and giving it a go. Abeline Machine give a year warranty with the motor .
I have not had time to go check the injector line like Dr. Allis suggested. I had already taken the head off and do not remember what way the injection lines were facing. I think that could have been what happened. I wish I would have figured it out sooner.
Just really appreciate everyone's opinion and advise.... Keep it coming. THank you!
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Lonn
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 7:16am |
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The 7050 engine isn't as well built as your engine. The wrist pins are smaller and the rods are not drilled for oil cooling to the pistons..... though that part isn't quite as big of a deal because the 3700 has jets in the main bearing saddles that spray oil up towards the pistons. I belive the 8070 crankshaft has counter weights vs the 7050 having none. I'd take the Roosa pump over the AMBAC though.
Edited by Lonn - 04 Jun 2021 at 7:18am
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 7:25am |
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Looks to me like his best option is actually the used 7050 engine. KC Grain is Reliance Works, and he does a phenomenal job reviving these and adding the Bosch A pump, but it is an expensive option, and he is half the country away. I have helped a couple of people go from the ambac m100 back to a roosa DM so it would run like the other tractors on their farm, 7040/7060's. Sounds like the OP is comfortable swapping engines, just not real comfortable rebuilding. Which I would not hesitate to just rebuild what he has if were me. If it was something as simple as backward injectors, it would be worth doing again. Since there's no qualified mechanics in his area, he needs to become his own qualified mechanic out of necessity! lol!
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 9:20am |
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I'd have to review my 8070 service manual but it was VERY thorough on PD and transmission. Expect the same on engine. Point is,reading, comprehension and a good book can take a novice through the unknown.
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 4:30pm |
Still toying with lots of ideas. The biggest issue I have in keeping my engine is that I have had lots of trouble with it. Like I said, Maybe I did have the injectors in wrong, who knows.... Just have an awful taste in my mouth with the current motor......
Still trying to decide if I want to repower. I have shops here who are familiar with the Cummins motors etc. If I do repower any thoughts on going with a 5.9 or the 8.3? Don't want over 200hp in this tractor anyways as suggested above. I want the rest of it to hold together for years to come.....
Sure appreciate all of your opinions.....
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 5:35pm |
Here's the costs:
7050 motor 4150 - next day shipping
5.9 CUmmins with the repower kit ready to install 8500 (under 1500 hours)- ship in about a week
8.3L Cummins with the repower kit ready to install 10k - (under 1500 hours) ship in about a week
Send to Reliance LLC to rebuild my current motor - about 11k with shipping. take about 45 days to get back
Need some input guys... Struggling to say the least.
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Tim NH
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 5:42pm |
Add in the cost of having a adapter plate made, or being able to buy one, to mate the Cummins up. Tim
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Lonn
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 6:25pm |
I would not go to anyone not familiar with Allis engines no matter what. IMO you would then be just as well off doing it yourself. I've seen what happens if you go to an otherwise good shop but unfamiliar with Allis. There is no cheap way out of an engine overhaul done proper. Does it need another complete rebuild or just the problem fixed? Do you need the tractor before 45 days? If you don't like Reliance, I've seen good and bad reviews here on the forum but that happens with everything, can you convince one of our forum gurus to take on the work? I think KC Grain is as good as anyone but have no experience other than he used to be on the forum quite a bit and is an ardent defender of AC as am I.
Are the hours on those Cummins engines true? I think the 8.3 is too big but that is me. If it were me..... and I admit I am different than many, I would get it rebuilt but just use the AMBAC or maybe convert to a Roosa rather than the expensive A pump conversion. I also dislike bastardizing an AC with another brand engine but again that is just me.
Edited by Lonn - 06 Jun 2021 at 8:45am
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DrAllis
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 7:08pm |
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I'm a fan of the old DM-4 RoosaMaster/Stanadyne injection pump. I know they start harder when cold. I know that generally the exhaust smoke is more noticeable. The reason I HATE AmBach systems is because of so-so pump reliability (compared to DM-4) and the fact that the start of injection is always the same, making the engine rattle all the da&& time, compared to a DM-4. I have had more head gasket issues over the years with AmBach engines. I have had two AmBach 's melt pistons on two different tractors(8050 and 8070) because the timing advance failed and the operators couldn't tell there was anything wrong. This posters multiple piston problems are injection pump and/or injector installation issues clear and simple.
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 11:18pm |
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 11:19pm |
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 11:19pm |
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bhuffaker1
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Posted: 04 Jun 2021 at 11:19pm |
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