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eye opener must read.. |
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22265 |
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Posted: 23 Jan 2020 at 9:02pm |
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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tbran
Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Paris Tn Points: 3285 |
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Years ago we sold a baler to a carpenter, farmer, contractor. HE hired a customer to run it. He checked on the operator and could not find him - shut off the tractor and yelled his name - noticed red hyd fluid coming from baler - it was not hydraulic fluid. The operator was inside the empty baler decapitated. The widow was settling the estate and a lawyer told her she could get millions in a law suit. They sued Vemeer for patenting the round baler, Hesston for building it , me for selling it , customer for buying it and hiring her husband and the land owner for hiring him to bale the hay. Every one wanted to settle out of court except my customer - he hired and private investigator and found the deceased had taken 6 BC powder, was on pain meds, was on disability and found foot prints on top of the baler where he somehow jumped into the bale chamber. He wanted the body exhumed and tested and if it was found he as over medicated she would have to give up the double indemnity part of the life insurance - she dropped the suit on the day liability statute was up - cost the defense , us , big bucks.... the big equipment companies build this into the price of equipment - several % n $ set aside for lawsuits. We all pay for the ambulance chasing lawyers.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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cottonpatch
Silver Level Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Location: VIRGINIA Points: 285 |
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Every tractor I sold was ballasted. In the rear tires with liquid unless the customer explicitly told us not to and signed a waiver exercising omitting the fluid fill. Looks like the liability would have been to the dealer not Deere, but what do I know.
Edited by cottonpatch - 23 Jan 2020 at 10:58pm |
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'52 CA, '61 D10 II, ‘61 D15, '66 D15II, '63 D17D III, ‘69 170, '73 185 Crop Hustler, '79 185, '79 7000, '77 7040
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tbran
Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Paris Tn Points: 3285 |
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there should be NO liability here - how many thousands of other operators used non abusive techniques plus common sense read the op man and had no issues. When the legal system grants judgement like this it negates the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" paradigm WE have to live under when we do something wrong against the law because we did not know a particular law. What is next - customers trading a finger in a negligent willing accident for a million bucks? It is a slippery slope to un-affordable equipment or the elimination of equipment as in the corn picker....
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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cottonpatch
Silver Level Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Location: VIRGINIA Points: 285 |
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Believe me I agree with you, but I don’t understand how Deere got the hook and not the dealer. As long as there are lawyers there will be lawsuits. Common sense is thrown out the window in the somebody has to be at fault lawsuits and therefore pay. Which at the end of the day gives credence to the next esquire following/filing suit.
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'52 CA, '61 D10 II, ‘61 D15, '66 D15II, '63 D17D III, ‘69 170, '73 185 Crop Hustler, '79 185, '79 7000, '77 7040
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wayne IA
Silver Level Joined: 22 Sep 2009 Points: 67 |
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Wife of a farmer I worked for in college had a shirt that pretty well summed it up. "Trial lawyers don't make the products you buy, they make the products you buy more expensive". I can see why the the Deere factory didn't ballast the tractor. One customer wants cast, next customer wants calcium chloride, another wants a non-corrosive tire ballast, and another is going to use their own 3 point weight bracket.
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GregStremel
Bronze Level Joined: 06 Aug 2013 Points: 81 |
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Years ago in law school, we studied a products liability case. A 3 point brush hog was attached to a tractor. The owner was running the tractor. His buddy was riding. His feet were on the lower 3 point arms, straddling the pto shaft which was turning. The buddy lost his footing and fell on the pto shaft. Back then, there were no pto guards . The buddy suffered horrific injuries.
The jury determined that the product was defective because the manufacturer should have foreseen that someone would have ridden on it like that. Therefore a pto guard should have been designed and installed at the factory. That was my first lesson that common sense is not always part of court. Different situation, I purchased a used Exmark zero turn mower. I wanted a ROPS because I have a ditch to mow and wanted to be safe. I called the company. By luck, a high ranking employee answered the phone. He checked the serial number and determined that my mower never had a ROPS. Therefore, I could not buy one. Exmark GAVE me one. Plus they paid their local dealer to install it. This was company policy to everyone. The high ranking employee told me that Exmark had been sued and won. The family that founded Exmark and still owned it at the time felt bad. Even though they won the trial, the family decided to pay. They also decided they would install one, once, on every mower. The kept records and would not replace a ROPS that had been removed. I thought that was a great family. |
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DiyDave
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Gambrills, MD Points: 51372 |
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Common sense is not common, but trial lawyers are...
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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
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TimNearFortWorth
Orange Level Joined: 12 Dec 2009 Points: 2014 |
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A 700# loader on a compact, in use on a grade? Speed when happened? Load being carried? How much if loaded?
Many details we don't have and no guarantee the accident would not have happened even if ballasted as recommended. Someone went back to a basic manufacturer's recommendation, one recommended to reduce liability in the first place. Any loss of life is tragic, but I am amazed at how many videos there are online showing tractors in use where the loader is way to high while the tractor is used for non loader ops. like baling hay. I have actually been told "I want it plenty high enough to see completely through it vs. leaving it just high enough to clear the windrow". We were raised on the farm to keep loads just high enough off ground for travel and travel slowly if loaded at all until the point where it had to be raised enough to dump. A swift boot or cuff upside the head was administered if the above was not followed and use on grades was not allowed. Sometimes common sense would go a very long way.
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Gary Burnett
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Points: 2928 |
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Well JD did state in the owners manual that the tractor was unsafe to operate without the proper rear ballast being added. They sold the tractor without the equipment to make it safe to operate per their own words.About all these new plastic/electronic wonders I have been around the last few years with loaders are unsafe in my opinion because of the lack of rear weight being built into them.People rely on the 4WD to make them handle loads but that doesn't stop rollovers.
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GregStremel
Bronze Level Joined: 06 Aug 2013 Points: 81 |
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A trial judge perspective.
This verdict should surprise no one who has experience in court. A 38 year old man leaves behind a widow and an infant. He buys new green paint to work his small farmette. He is excited and expects it to be ready to work. It was not. Deere’s own documents state it must be ballasted. Ballast is on the delivery checklist. It was not done. Deere rep testified that solid ballast should be installed by the dealer, not the owner. Evidence was that proper ballast would have probably prevented the death. This case should have settled. 27 minute deliberation shows the jury did not have much doubt. 2 million punitive damage award means the jury did not think much of Deere’s case. My opinion may not be popular.
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Gary Burnett
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Points: 2928 |
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Will add the Corvair got nailed on the rollover thing and they didn't even have front end loaders(LOL)
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DougG
Orange Level Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Location: Mo Points: 8091 |
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Smaller utility tractors are the worst- along with people not familiar with them as you can get in trouble fast,
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tomstractorsandtoys
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Location: wi Points: 515 |
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It should have been the dealers problem and not John Deere. Tom
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Tbone95
Orange Level Access Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 11544 |
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FWIW, I think you're pretty spot on. Personally, I don't see the connection to Deere itself. Saying that doesn't mean I don't realize that connection is made in trials such as these all of the time.
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20191 |
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Deere has deeper pockets than P&K Implement.
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HoughMade
Orange Level Joined: 22 Sep 2017 Location: Valparaiso, IN Points: 691 |
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That perspective is very close to my own...but I'm no trial judge. However, I have been trying civil jury trials (for the defendants) for 21 years. We can all say: "he should have known better" and on a cosmic level, that's right. However, especially with compact tractors sold to people who have not always lived the farm life, it is not prudent to operation a business on the "he should have known" principle. If you do, at least have really good insurance.
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1951 B
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LouSWPA
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Clinton, Pa Points: 24207 |
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all arguments aside, this, and the 'lap log' post else ware on this forum are rather sobering.
We can all argue who's "fault" it was, but the bottom line is we are all the last line of defense for our own safety! It behooves us to assure ourselves we know and understand what the hell we are doing! IF WE DONT, THE RESULTS CAN BE PRETTY MUCH GUARANTEED! I don't know, but I will bet that somewhere in the operators manuals for both the tractors in this and the 'lap log' post both situations were addressed! I suspect that in the JD case, somewhere in the ops manual it emphatically states that the machine had to be ballasted. Did the operator read the ops manual? Did he then check to assure it was ballasted? 'lap log' case, I am willing to bet the ops manual for that machine says something about lifting loads too high. anybody wanna bet the operator never read the manual? The real problem is we live in a litigation society to the point that manufacturers need to put warnings and labels and six pages of cautions in every ops manual to the point that we have become numb to them.....we pay little or no attention to any of them! there is a decal on the deck of every lawn mower sold 'do not place finger under deck with mower running' because some jaskass(s) did so came up with stubs and then sued the manufacturer! the more guards and shields and warnings that are added to products, the stupider and lazier we all get.....and the less we want to take responsibility for our own actions!!!! and the more we pay for products to pay for the law suits and litigators!! Edited by LouSWPA - 24 Jan 2020 at 9:39am |
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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
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HoughMade
Orange Level Joined: 22 Sep 2017 Location: Valparaiso, IN Points: 691 |
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I see the cause against Deere as more tenuous, but think of it this way- Deere knew that the tractor needed to be ballasted: 1) What steps did they take to make sure it was before delivery? 2) Even though dealers commonly are the ones who do this, is there anything that kept Deere from doing it? I don't know the theory against Deere, but I bet the 2 points above play a part.
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1951 B
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Tbone95
Orange Level Access Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 11544 |
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Step 1, the policy is to have the dealers do it so that the customer gets the specific ballast they want, as stated above.
Step 2, legal mumbo jumbo. I said personally, not legally.
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HoughMade
Orange Level Joined: 22 Sep 2017 Location: Valparaiso, IN Points: 691 |
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I get it. A verdict like this doesn't sit well with people who know what they are doing and for whom operating a tractor with a loader is second nature.
I will say only this: Being in compliance with one's own policies is great...but a jury gets to decide whether your policies meet the standard of care.
Edited by HoughMade - 24 Jan 2020 at 9:59am |
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1951 B
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Tbone95
Orange Level Access Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 11544 |
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I'm just messing with ya' hough........I get it too.
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 20191 |
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But, if he didn't have the seat belt on and it had a roll bar, why wasn't the Operator liable in some way ???
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22265 |
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I posted this and laplog as a 'head's up reminder'... guess 'common sense' isn't common anymore. I'm reminded of the kid up here, running his motocross bike on well signed 'do not trespass' hydro property. Kid falls, breaks leg, sues Hydro, he WINS !!!! The kid was 100% WRONG but he won ????? Oh well guys, be SAFE , 55 days until Spring !!!
Edited by jaybmiller - 24 Jan 2020 at 10:20am |
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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Lonn
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29781 |
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Some people shouldn't own tractors but they do, some shouldn't own and drive cars on public roads but they do. I know people that shouldn't do either.......... but they do.
Edited by Lonn - 24 Jan 2020 at 11:34am |
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DougG
Orange Level Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Location: Mo Points: 8091 |
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I completely understand your words Lonn, I am around guys from lets say the city, cant wait to get to their - property- on weekends to abuse the tractors, roll 4 whlers ,, shoot guns etc,,without much common sense of how things can turn around so fast,and of coarse drink- I always think , oh wow , whose gonna get killed this weekend
Edited by DougG - 24 Jan 2020 at 12:16pm |
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8162 |
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Yep Lonn,there's aplenty that shouldn't breed,but they do.....and that's what causes all this crap!
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Gary Burnett
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Points: 2928 |
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JD,Kubota and other tractor companies are targeting the homeowner,just getting started type people in many of their ads.If they stated they were only interested in selling to experienced tractor operators that'd be a different story.Of course the truth is they want to sell to anyone that will sign up for their $0 down,easy monthly payments.In my opinion if JD ships the tractor out with a mounted loader then they should have the tractor equipped to safely operate it especially since they state in the manual what it takes to do so.If on the other hand the dealer mounts the loader at their place then the responsibility goes to the dealer.
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Gary Burnett
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Points: 2928 |
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No one I know was born knowing how to drive and operate a tractor,its a learned thing like about everything else in life.
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old farmer
Silver Level Access Joined: 12 Oct 2011 Location: Sturgis, Mich Points: 341 |
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Think about the money jd saved by not shipping the weights on the unit.
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