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eye opener must read..

Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=167686
Printed Date: 02 May 2024 at 10:00am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: eye opener must read..
Posted By: jaybmiller
Subject: eye opener must read..
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2020 at 9:02pm
https://www.stwnewspress.com/news/jury-orders-john-deere-to-pay-million-for-stillwater-man/article_163a6297-2a3a-523d-a2eb-f908bf052400.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.stwnewspress.com/news/jury-orders-john-deere-to-pay-million-for-stillwater-man/article_163a6297-2a3a-523d-a2eb-f908bf052400.html

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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water



Replies:
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2020 at 9:44pm
Years ago we sold a baler to a carpenter, farmer, contractor.  HE hired a customer to run it.  He checked on the operator and could not find him - shut off the tractor and yelled his name - noticed red hyd fluid coming from baler - it was not hydraulic fluid. The operator was inside the empty baler decapitated. The widow was settling the estate and a lawyer told her she could get millions in a law suit.  They sued Vemeer for patenting the round baler, Hesston for building it , me for selling it , customer for buying it and hiring her husband and the land owner for hiring him to bale the hay. Every one wanted to settle out of court except my customer  - he hired and private investigator and found the deceased  had taken 6 BC powder, was on pain meds, was on disability and found foot prints on top of the baler where he somehow jumped into the bale chamber.  He wanted the body exhumed and tested and if it was found he as over medicated she would have to give up the double indemnity part of the life insurance - she dropped the suit on the day liability statute was up - cost the defense , us , big bucks.... the big equipment companies build this into the price of equipment - several % n $ set aside for lawsuits.  We all pay for the ambulance chasing lawyers. 

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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..


Posted By: cottonpatch
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2020 at 10:57pm
Every tractor I sold was ballasted. In the rear tires with liquid unless the customer explicitly told us not to and signed a waiver exercising omitting the fluid fill.   Looks like the liability would have been to the dealer not Deere, but what do I know.

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'52 CA, '61 D10 II, ‘61 D15, '66 D15II, '63 D17D III, ‘69 170, '73 185 Crop Hustler, '79 185, '79 7000, '77 7040


Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2020 at 11:27pm
there should be NO liability here - how many thousands of other operators used non abusive techniques plus common sense read the op man and had no issues. When the legal system grants judgement like this it negates the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" paradigm WE have to live under when we do something wrong against the law because we did not know a particular law.  What is next - customers trading a finger in a negligent willing accident for a million bucks? It is a slippery slope to un-affordable equipment or the elimination of equipment as in the corn picker....    



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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..


Posted By: cottonpatch
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 12:20am
Believe me I agree with you, but I don’t understand how Deere got the hook and not the dealer. As long as there are lawyers there will be lawsuits. Common sense is thrown out the window in the somebody has to be at fault lawsuits and therefore pay. Which at the end of the day gives credence to the next esquire following/filing suit.

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'52 CA, '61 D10 II, ‘61 D15, '66 D15II, '63 D17D III, ‘69 170, '73 185 Crop Hustler, '79 185, '79 7000, '77 7040


Posted By: wayne IA
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 12:41am
Wife of a farmer I worked for in college had a shirt that pretty well summed it up.  "Trial lawyers don't make the products you buy, they make the products you buy more expensive".  I can see why the the Deere factory didn't ballast the tractor.  One customer wants cast, next customer wants calcium chloride, another wants a non-corrosive tire ballast, and another is going to use their own 3 point weight bracket.


Posted By: GregStremel
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 4:41am
Years ago in law school, we studied a products liability case.  A 3 point brush hog was attached to a tractor.  The owner was running the tractor.  His buddy was riding.  His feet were on the lower 3 point arms, straddling the pto shaft which was turning. The buddy lost his footing and fell on the pto shaft. Back then, there were no pto guards .  The buddy suffered horrific injuries.

The jury determined that the product was defective because the manufacturer should have foreseen that someone would have ridden on it like that. Therefore a pto guard should have been designed and installed at the factory. That was my first lesson that common sense is not always part of court.

Different situation, I purchased a used Exmark zero turn mower.  I wanted a ROPS because I have a ditch to mow and wanted to be safe. I called the company. By luck, a high ranking employee answered the phone. He checked the serial number and determined that my mower never had a ROPS.  Therefore, I could not buy one. Exmark GAVE me one. Plus they paid their local dealer to install it.

This was company policy to everyone.  The high ranking employee told me that Exmark had been sued and won.  The family that founded Exmark and still owned it at the time felt bad. Even though they won the trial, the family decided to pay. They also decided they would install one, once, on every mower.  The kept records and would not replace a ROPS that had been removed.  I thought that was a great family.




Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 4:47am
Common sense is not common, but trial lawyers are...Wink

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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!


Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 5:03am
A 700# loader on a compact, in use on a grade? Speed when happened? Load being carried? How much if loaded?
Many details we don't have and no guarantee the accident would not have happened even if ballasted as recommended.
Someone went back to a basic manufacturer's recommendation, one recommended to reduce liability in the first place.
Any loss of life is tragic, but I am amazed at how many videos there are online showing tractors in use where the loader is way to high while the tractor is used for non loader ops. like baling hay. I have actually been told "I want it plenty high enough to see completely through it vs. leaving it just high enough to clear the windrow".
We were raised on the farm to keep loads just high enough off ground for travel and travel slowly if loaded at all until the point where it had to be raised enough to dump.
A swift boot or cuff upside the head was administered if the above was not followed and use on grades was not allowed.
Sometimes common sense would go a very long way.


Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 5:30am
Well JD did state in the owners manual that the tractor was unsafe to operate without the proper rear ballast being added. They sold the tractor without the equipment to make it safe to operate per their own words.About all these new plastic/electronic wonders I have been around the last few years with loaders are unsafe in my opinion because of the lack of rear weight being built into them.People rely on the 4WD to make them handle loads but that doesn't stop rollovers.


Posted By: GregStremel
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 5:59am
A trial judge perspective.

This verdict should surprise no one who has experience in court.

A 38 year old man leaves behind a widow and an infant.  He buys new green paint to work his small farmette. He is excited and expects it to be ready to work. It was not. Deere’s own documents state it must be ballasted.  Ballast is on the delivery checklist. It was not done. Deere rep testified that solid ballast should be installed by the dealer, not the owner.  Evidence was that proper ballast would have probably prevented the death.

This case should have settled. 27 minute deliberation shows the jury did not have much doubt.  2 million punitive damage award means the jury did not think much of Deere’s case.

My opinion may not be popular.


Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 6:22am
Will add the Corvair got nailed on the rollover thing and they didn't even have front
end loaders(LOL)


Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 6:46am
Smaller utility tractors are the worst- along with people not familiar with them as you can get in trouble fast,


Posted By: tomstractorsandtoys
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 7:37am
It should have been the dealers problem and not John Deere. Tom


Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 8:28am
Originally posted by GregStremel GregStremel wrote:

A trial judge perspective.

This verdict should surprise no one who has experience in court.

A 38 year old man leaves behind a widow and an infant.  He buys new green paint to work his small farmette. He is excited and expects it to be ready to work. It was not. Deere’s own documents state it must be ballasted.  Ballast is on the delivery checklist. It was not done. Deere rep testified that solid ballast should be installed by the dealer, not the owner.  Evidence was that proper ballast would have probably prevented the death.

This case should have settled. 27 minute deliberation shows the jury did not have much doubt.  2 million punitive damage award means the jury did not think much of Deere’s case.

My opinion may not be popular.
FWIW, I think you're pretty spot on.  Personally, I don't see the connection to Deere itself.  Saying that doesn't mean I don't realize that connection is made in trials such as these all of the time.


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 8:55am
Deere has deeper pockets than P&K Implement.


Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 9:35am
Originally posted by GregStremel GregStremel wrote:

A trial judge perspective.

This verdict should surprise no one who has experience in court.

A 38 year old man leaves behind a widow and an infant.  He buys new green paint to work his small farmette. He is excited and expects it to be ready to work. It was not. Deere’s own documents state it must be ballasted.  Ballast is on the delivery checklist. It was not done. Deere rep testified that solid ballast should be installed by the dealer, not the owner.  Evidence was that proper ballast would have probably prevented the death.

This case should have settled. 27 minute deliberation shows the jury did not have much doubt.  2 million punitive damage award means the jury did not think much of Deere’s case.

My opinion may not be popular.

That perspective is very close to my own...but I'm no trial judge.  However, I have been trying civil jury trials (for the defendants) for 21 years.

We can all say: "he should have known better" and on a cosmic level, that's right.  However, especially with compact tractors sold to people who have not always lived the farm life, it is not prudent to operation a business on the "he should have known" principle.  If you do, at least have really good insurance.


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1951 B


Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 9:38am
all arguments aside, this, and the 'lap log' post else ware on this forum are rather sobering.
We can all argue who's "fault" it was, but the bottom line is we are all the last line of defense for our own safety!
It behooves us to assure ourselves we know and understand what the hell we are doing! IF WE DONT, THE RESULTS CAN BE PRETTY MUCH GUARANTEED!

I don't know, but I will bet that somewhere in the operators manuals for both the tractors in this and the 'lap log' post both situations were addressed! I suspect that in the JD case, somewhere in the ops manual it emphatically states that the machine had to be ballasted. Did the operator read the ops manual? Did he then check to assure it was ballasted?

'lap log' case, I am willing to bet the ops manual for that machine says something about lifting loads too high. anybody wanna bet the operator never read the manual?

The real problem is we live in a litigation society to the point that manufacturers need to put warnings and labels and six pages of cautions in every ops manual to the point that we have become numb to them.....we pay little or no attention to any of them! there is a decal on the deck of every lawn mower sold 'do not place finger under deck with mower running' because some jaskass(s) did so came up with stubs and then sued the manufacturer!

the more guards and shields and warnings that are added to products, the stupider and lazier we all get.....and the less we want to take responsibility for our own actions!!!! and the more we pay for products to pay for the law suits and litigators!!

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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord;
be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27


Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 9:38am
Originally posted by Tbone95 Tbone95 wrote:

FWIW, I think you're pretty spot on.  Personally, I don't see the connection to Deere itself.  Saying that doesn't mean I don't realize that connection is made in trials such as these all of the time.

I see the cause against Deere as more tenuous, but think of it this way- Deere knew that the tractor needed to be ballasted:

1) What steps did they take to make sure it was before delivery?
2) Even though dealers commonly are the ones who do this, is there anything that kept Deere from doing it?

I don't know the theory against Deere, but I bet the 2 points above play a part.


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1951 B


Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 9:54am
Step 1, the policy is to have the dealers do it so that the customer gets the specific ballast they want, as stated above.
 
Step 2,  legal mumbo jumbo.
 
LOL
 
I said personally, not legally.  Wink


Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 9:58am
I get it.  A verdict like this doesn't sit well with people who know what they are doing and for whom operating a tractor with a loader is second nature.

I will say only this: Being in compliance with one's own policies is great...but a jury gets to decide whether your policies meet the standard of care. 


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1951 B


Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 10:01am
I'm just messing with ya' hough........I get it too.


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 10:07am
But, if he didn't have the seat belt on and it had a roll bar, why wasn't the Operator liable in some way ???


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 10:20am
I posted this and laplog as a 'head's up reminder'...  guess 'common sense' isn't common anymore.

I'm reminded of the kid up here, running his motocross  bike on well signed 'do not trespass' hydro property. Kid falls, breaks leg, sues Hydro, he WINS !!!! The kid was 100% WRONG but he won ?????

Oh well guys, be SAFE , 55 days until Spring !!!


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 11:33am
Some people shouldn't own tractors but they do, some shouldn't own and drive cars on public roads but they do. I know people that shouldn't do either.......... but they do.


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Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 12:15pm
I completely understand your words Lonn, I am around guys from lets say the city, cant wait to get to their - property- on weekends to abuse the tractors, roll 4 whlers ,, shoot guns etc,,without much common sense of how things can turn around so fast,and of coarse drink- I always think , oh wow , whose gonna get killed this weekend


Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 12:17pm
Yep Lonn,there's aplenty that shouldn't breed,but they do.....and that's what causes all this crap!


Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 12:51pm
JD,Kubota and other tractor companies are targeting the homeowner,just getting started type people in many of their ads.If they stated they were only interested in selling to experienced tractor operators that'd be a different story.Of course the truth is they want to sell to anyone that will sign up for their $0 down,easy monthly payments.In my opinion if JD ships the tractor out with a mounted loader then they should have the tractor equipped to safely operate it especially since they state in the manual what it takes to do so.If on the other hand the dealer mounts the loader at their place then the responsibility goes to the dealer.


Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by Lonn Lonn wrote:

Some people shouldn't own tractors but they do, some shouldn't own and drive cars on public roads but they do. I know people that shouldn't do either.......... but they do.

No one I know was born knowing how to drive and operate a tractor,its a learned thing like about everything else in life.


Posted By: old farmer
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 1:37pm
Think about the money jd saved by not shipping the weights on the unit.


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 1:42pm
Some won't learn no matter what. When I was working at a place where I parked on the street, at quitting time everyday a guy in a pickup would come racing around the curve just past all our cars parked on that street and people said he's gonna kill someone some day. Well one day he came around the curve and started sliding directly at us crossing the street. One guy couldn't get out of the way fast enough but lucky for him the pickup hit a parked pickup at the same time it him. Threw the guy walking a ways down the street but he just was bruised up a bit. The parked pickup was only a week or two old and that owner was one teed off fella. So was the guy who actually got hit. If that pickup hadn't been parked there he'd been run over or if the the idiot driver was a second slower he's been crushed between the two pickups.

Now you'd think the driver would have learned a thing our two from that incident but the next week he was doing exactly the same thing and to this day, 20 plus years later, he still drives like an idiot.


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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 2:04pm
Interesting. That's the town I'm in school at. Hadn't heard anything about it, even in the agriculture dept. I agree, the dealer is at fault to an extent, but did it say what he was doing when it rolled (maybe I missed it?) I tend to think it is mostly his fault, for engaging in an activity where rollover was likely. With our loader tractors, I'm always a little leery on hillsides, even with them weighted, and I keep the bucket as close to the ground as is reasonable. 


Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 2:36pm
I took a couple of minutes to look if I could find a more thorough report about the trial, but so far I haven't.  That could help explain whether contributory (or comparative) negligence was at issue.  I'm going to take a shot at seeing if the court records are online.

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1951 B


Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 2:56pm
Well, OK, this is interesting.  First, let me say that what I am posting below is from the defendants' Deere's attorneys.  Keep that in mind.  This is their side of this and, obviously, they are arguing for their client.

Deere apparently moved for a mistrial because, they say, the plaintiff never brought up ballasting as a defect until during the trial itself.  Usually, everything is out in the open and everyone knows what the other will be arguing well before trial.  However, when trial happens, the judge has a huge amount of latitude to allow evidence and arguments that the judge deems proper.

The judge denied a mistrial.

However, these portions of Deere's motion tell us why the dealer wasn't primarily at fault- thinking that the plaintiff was claiming defects in design and manufacturing that went to Deere, not what happened at the dealer, and the ballasting, the dealer's responsibility, not having been previously disclosed, Deere agreed to be liable for the dealer and itself (Deere, based upon the allegations before trial, did not believe that the dealer was at fault and likely had contract to defend and indemnify the dealer for product defects that were the fault of Deere).

trial-2

trial-1

Still looking for the comparative negligence info.


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1951 B


Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 3:15pm
OK, in a products liability case in Oklahoma, there is no comparative negligence by the plaintiff, but misuse of the product is a defense.

The Defendant claims non-use of the seatbelt as misuse.  The plaintiff was trying to keep the seatbelt non-use out of evidence stating that it is not misuse because misuse means using the product in a manner other than it is intended.  The defendant obviously wanted it in evidence.  I can't see the order on the motions in limine (motion to keep certain evidence out), but there was no jury instruction on misuse, so I am going to speculate that the evidence of misuse was inadmissible.

Disclaimer- this was an Oklahoma case.  I am an Indiana attorney.  I am not giving legal advice to anyone.  I am just commenting upon a case of interest.


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1951 B


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 4:41pm
You said Oklahoma. I love Oklahoma but I don't ever want to see the inside of a Courthouse there. Civil,criminal,defendent or plaintiff.

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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 5:06pm
Oh, and I forgot- there was a box blade on the tractor at the time, so at least that was some weight.

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1951 B


Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2020 at 7:55am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:


Deere has deeper pockets than P&K Implement.


Absolutely right. It doesn’t matter who’s at fault. It matters who has the most money.


Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2020 at 8:56am
Likely Deere will appeal....if it hasn’t already.


Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2020 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by TramwayGuy TramwayGuy wrote:

Likely Deere will appeal....if it hasn’t already.


Guaranteed.

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1951 B


Posted By: cottonpatch
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2020 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by Gary Burnett Gary Burnett wrote:

JD,Kubota and other tractor companies are targeting the homeowner,just getting started type people in many of their ads.If they stated they were only interested in selling to experienced tractor operators that'd be a different story.Of course the truth is they want to sell to anyone that will sign up for their $0 down,easy monthly payments.In my opinion if JD ships the tractor out with a mounted loader then they should have the tractor equipped to safely operate it especially since they state in the manual what it takes to do so.If on the other hand the dealer mounts the loader at their place then the responsibility goes to the dealer.


Some dealers will order units with the loader factory mounted if that’s an option. I worked for one dealer that ordered tractors configured this way. Or ordered loader ready which means with loader frames installed and the midvalve with joystick.

I recently worked for another Deere dealer (large dealer - 40+ stores) that only ordered the compacts and utility tractors with midvalve and joystick only. The loader frames and loaders were installed by the service department. It’s always cheaper to configure and order the tractor with a factory installed loader or loader ready. So why does a 40 store dealer do this versus a 6 store dealer doing it the more cost effective way? One word - absorption. According to Deere, the more profitable your parts department and service departments are, the lower the margin you can sell your units at because the aforementioned departments can theoretically carry the sales department. Installing loader frames and loader by the service department bumps your shop’s billable hours. But as a sales guy speaking, nothing installed on a unit is free from the service department. Someone pays-either the customer or the sales guy.   

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'52 CA, '61 D10 II, ‘61 D15, '66 D15II, '63 D17D III, ‘69 170, '73 185 Crop Hustler, '79 185, '79 7000, '77 7040


Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2020 at 10:40am
I was on a jury for a very sad case. We all felt bad for the person that was suing. He didn't die but was severely handicapped. They paraded him around the courtroom in a wheelchair unable to speak for everyone to see in hope that we would award him millions. A doctor was being sued for malpractice and causing the injury but the overwhelming evidence showed the doctor was not at fault. It took us about 30 minutes to give the verdict. No money.

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1957 WD45 dad's first AC

1968 one-seventy

1956 F40 Ferguson


Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2020 at 8:46pm
Well now all JD tractors will come form the factory with a heap of weight on them, and they will cost a little more, to settle the lawsuit.

People need to take responsibility for their actions. It's your responsibility to learn how to operate a piece of equipment. I hate that they family lost their loved one, but it's not Deere's fault.  

I heard of a suit where somebody got gobbled up by a Vermeer roller. They sued Vermeer because the pickup wasn't guarded to keep somebody from getting sucked in. In the end Vermeer won the lawsuit, when they finally proved that there was no possible way to guard the pickup to keep somebody from falling in, and it still be able to pick up hay. Sure, I've got off the tractor with the roller running before, but I know full well that every manufacturer tells you not to get off the tractor without not only turning off the PTO, but shutting the tractor completely off.     


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2020 at 7:15am
There were MANY lawsuits against A-C by widows who sued because their ignorant husbands got off the seat of the WD45 to kick in some hay and they wound up being ate up by the Roto-baler.


Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2020 at 7:19am
A neighbor friend of mine, in his first summer out of High School got taken into an A.C. Roll Bailer.

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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"


Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2020 at 7:41am
Been nearly 10 years now but niece's beau that did all field work and daily barn cleaning chores for elderly parents did not return from spreading one night just before Christmas.
Left 3 little girls and shook both families terribly.

Ford 4WD County and big slinger spreader that they found in a lower field. Initially, his father who went out on a 4-wheeler to see if he was broke down did not find him and it was now dark.
Others that went out found his feet, still in his socks and work boots as that was all that was left.
Graphic, yes, but the only thing they could figure was that he got out of tractor with pto on so as to clean off the spreader with a shovel handle as his father was meticulous about equipment care.
He was just shy of 30 years old.
Too many died in our area growing up, nearly all related to pto with others rollovers or logging accidents.
I still find myself thinking of my Dad if I get off a tractor while not even going near the implement where the pto is still winding down.
His words to us boys on the farm stayed with us and he would say nothing when a newspaper article was put in front of you at breakfast concerning another bad injury or fatality in the valley on a farm.
His favorite, "use your head" still rings true.



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