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engine stuck

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Wispitfiremike View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 10:17pm
Well, what we thought was a starter issue turned into something more serious, intermittent couldn't start with starter, went thru everything or so we thought. This last time we had bought another B and we picked up a hand crank to see if it was free. Now the original tractor seems to stick and not turn over at all. Starter jams and wont turn it over. Last time it did this not realizing it was sticking somewhere we bump started it and it ran great, no smoke or anything. Now with hand crank to check all this makes sense why were chasing starter issue. Couldn't possibly turn it over. Unfortunately we have to open it up, thinking oil pan to see if anything obvious and major, anything we should be looking for you can help with will help as we never had bottom end apart before. Could liner move? Slide up and down enough to slightly jam then move back and clear? Other thought was timing chain, never had open on this one either. Sad part is we just put water pump on it Saturday. Oh well. Was hoping to work on new addition to fleet. As always I appreciate your help and insight.
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Stan IL&TN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 2:53am
Take this with a grain of salt as I have never worked on a B but can make some assumptions it is similar to all Allis engines. There is no timing chain but a set of gears and the liners cannot move as long as the head is in place as it holds down the liners. If it were me I would pull the starter and make sure it is not jammed against the flywheel or that a tbroken tooth is not jammed holding it all in place so it can't move.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mdm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:11am
Do as said above. Pull the starter and see if you can hand crank it. The starter on my one B stuck in the flywheel. No way could I turn it over. 
Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradley6874 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:39am
Pull the plugs might be water holding it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 7:24am
Make sure there isn't a bolt threaded into the side of the bellhousing jammimg the flywheel. This has happened many times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HoughMade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 9:34am
How long has it been sitting?  If it happened quickly, say days of a couple of weeks- sure look for a mechanical problem.

If it has been sitting months or more, it could be the old rust in the cylinders.  That's what happened to mine.  It was sitting in the basement of a barn- even covered, the humidity rusted the cylinders that had a valve wide open.  2 was the worst.  I eventually got it unstuck without a rebuild (head came off, but not the pan) and it has good compression and runs without smoke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 10:59am
Forcing an engine to turn over by turning the crankshaft or pulling the tractor in gear can bend the connecting rod on the piston stuck going up and that bent connecting rod can break and its remains often punch a hole in the side of the block.

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wispitfiremike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 1:59pm
Hi the tractor sat for about a day from last run with the bump start but the starter wouldn't turn it then either, now it won't turn over with the hand crank we just got so now wondering if that was the same problem last time. Starter has been in and out several times spins fine but would not turn over engine. Tried hand crank with plugs out and won't budge. If timing gears not chain I think oil pan is next step, can it be done without removing the front end of a B?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HoughMade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 2:09pm
Yeah, just one day?  Mechanical.  Have you tried to crank the engine with the starter out?  Sounds like a mechanical problem other than the starter, but it's one bolt.
1951 B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wispitfiremike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 3:39pm
Took starter out, wont turn, tried plugs out but with starter in, checked bolts that hold cultivator on to make sure they weren't making contact in bellhousing, really don't see option to dropping pan at this point. Are there thrust washers on this engine that may be allowing too much shaft walk that could jam this slightly then release if walked other direction for while? Grasping at straws hoping to avoid teardown, oh well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 3:47pm
I agree...not 'siezed' but mechanically 'bound up'.
I wouldn't drop pan...maybe last resort...
I'd pull plugs and starter, keep them out until it's freed up.
Any chance the PTO is engaged and boundup ? I know if you twirl enough tall rye with a rototiller, it'll STOP the engine.....
Any chance the tranny is stuck in both say 1st and reverse ?

Others who have that series tractor will chime in, just find some shade and relax a bit !

Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:28pm
Have you tried with the clutch disengaged? The transmission could be stuck in two gears.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 8:51pm
Might want to take off the rocker cover and make sure all the valves are there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ted in NE-OH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 10:03pm
There are four    5\8 bolt holes (two on each side) at the front of the torque tube, used to mount implements, if there are bolts in any of the holes they could be too long and hitting the flywheel, that will stop it from turning over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 11:42am
I would try to turn the engine backwards before taking anything apart (if) you don't have bolts in the side of the bellhousing. With the starter out you can turn it with the flywheel teeth using a large screwdriver or pry bar. If the piston should have a valve stuck or dropped down it should turn backwards some.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wispitfiremike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 11:21pm
Hi sorry was working late today, the bolts on the outside we had on the cultivator were removed and tractor rolls in neutral with clutch out. Have had starter out but never thought to try to back up flywheel, will try that tomorrow to see if it has any effect. We have had intermittent problems with what we thought was starter for sometime but I think this issue is the real culprit just have to figure out what it is. Gained a couple more things to try tonight. Again thanks for ideas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 5:54am
I see you tried removing the spark plugs? This is a heads up for other people that may have the same problem I did.

I (very) recently tried to start my D-17 (series IV). It turned a little, then wouldn't turn any more. The float in the carb had stuck and filled the cylinders and base with gas. 

I never thought about gas. I suspected I had a coolant leak and it had filled the cylinders with antifreeze. When I tuned it over with the starter, it shot gas over 20' (so make sure you do it outside!!!) and, since I had just disconnected the plug wires, I had an instant inferno. My wife called the fire department, but I got it out before they arrived.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 9:11am
WF,you didn't think that one clear through did ya?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HoughMade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 9:28am
Originally posted by WF owner WF owner wrote:

...When I tuned it over with the starter, it shot gas over 20' (so make sure you do it outside!!!) and, since I had just disconnected the plug wires, I had an instant inferno. My wife called the fire department, but I got it out before they arrived.

Don't feel bad.

I had this Yamaha XS400 motorcycle that a buddy gave me that had sat for about 12 years.  Prior to starting it up, I sprayed quite a big of WD-40 in the cylinders to lubricate the bore.  I didn't mention that it was winter.....I was heating my garage with a kerosene heater.

When I kicked over the engine, WD-40 shot out the spark plug hole (I must have used a lot) and into the Kerosene heater....I put the fire out, but I nearly burned down the house.

Wait, maybe we both should feel bad.
1951 B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LouSWPA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 9:39am
what don't kill ya, makes ya smarter! I've had a few plans in my life that I obviously didn't think all the way through! If I live long enough, I'll be real smart!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 10:23am
check for stuck valves from old varnished gas mixed with new gas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wispitfiremike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2019 at 10:01pm
Update time, drained the oil and got a large amount of pure green antifreeze out before the oil came out. ? Removed the rocker cover and found some evidence that anti freeze was there for awhile mixing but more straight green antifreeze. Scratched our heads for awhile but then tried the suggestion that we try to turn the flywheel with starter out. Bingo it moves and it turns over with hand crank. Possible too much pressure from fluid quantity to allow it to turn over? Having never had head off is it possible to get that quantity of fluid without muddying brown from mixing from cooling system into oil thru head gasket or is next step to pull head off? As always the assistance is appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frnkeore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 1:02am
If it were me, I'd spit the tractor and completely disassemble the engine.

But, before that, I'd pull the plugs and fill with water and put 5-7 lb on the system, to see what area it leaks the most.
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 5:33am
Plain green on the top of the head would only mean it is coming from core plugs that have a holes or more. If it came from a blown head gasket it would not be green after being mixed with a running engine. You could most likely put in new core plugs, clean every thing up and go back to running.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 5:42am
sounds like 'hydraulic lock' ? where fluid fills the cylinder above the piston. seen that too many times on small riders where gas from tank gets past carb 'anti dieselling valve' then fills combusion chamber, THEN past rings into oil sump.
Since yours was 'clean',  oil and coolant separate,not a 'muddy mix', I agree with poster about , install new frost plugs, clean it up, fresh fluids and try starting her up.
If you're lucky, she'll be fine for another 50 years !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dt1050 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 7:07am
Originally posted by Dick L Dick L wrote:

Plain green on the top of the head would only mean it is coming from core plugs that have a holes or more. If it came from a blown head gasket it would not be green after being mixed with a running engine. You could most likely put in new core plugs, clean every thing up and go back to running.

dito
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Dick L Dick L wrote:

Plain green on the top of the head would only mean it is coming from core plugs that have a holes or more. If it came from a blown head gasket it would not be green after being mixed with a running engine. You could most likely put in new core plugs, clean every thing up and go back to running.

Good advice ! 

Always try the simplest and least expensive solution first. I'm betting the frost plugs are the problem. Even if they look ok, they may look worse from the other side. 

There is no sense in pulling apart an engine that doesn't need it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wispitfiremike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 1:35pm
Freeze plugs or frost plugs it is, so next question where can I find them in Wisconsin?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 1:47pm
If it was frost plugs, wouldn't it be leaking on the outside and not internally into the oil?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 2:01pm
I think these 'frost plugs' are on the head itself , I've seen pix here of them..remove valcover, look straight down under valve train...
'frost plugs' is a bad name, maybe oversized Welch plugs is better ??
I think they're used to fill the hole after some 'machining' is done....
Jay
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