engine stuck
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=162876
Printed Date: 01 Oct 2024 at 5:21pm
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Topic: engine stuck
Posted By: Wispitfiremike
Subject: engine stuck
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 10:17pm
| Well, what we thought was a starter issue turned into something more serious, intermittent couldn't start with starter, went thru everything or so we thought. This last time we had bought another B and we picked up a hand crank to see if it was free. Now the original tractor seems to stick and not turn over at all. Starter jams and wont turn it over. Last time it did this not realizing it was sticking somewhere we bump started it and it ran great, no smoke or anything. Now with hand crank to check all this makes sense why were chasing starter issue. Couldn't possibly turn it over. Unfortunately we have to open it up, thinking oil pan to see if anything obvious and major, anything we should be looking for you can help with will help as we never had bottom end apart before. Could liner move? Slide up and down enough to slightly jam then move back and clear? Other thought was timing chain, never had open on this one either. Sad part is we just put water pump on it Saturday. Oh well. Was hoping to work on new addition to fleet. As always I appreciate your help and insight. |
Replies:
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 2:53am
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Take this with a grain of salt as I have never worked on a B but can make some assumptions it is similar to all Allis engines. There is no timing chain but a set of gears and the liners cannot move as long as the head is in place as it holds down the liners. If it were me I would pull the starter and make sure it is not jammed against the flywheel or that a tbroken tooth is not jammed holding it all in place so it can't move. ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: mdm1
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:11am
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Do as said above. Pull the starter and see if you can hand crank it. The starter on my one B stuck in the flywheel. No way could I turn it over. ------------- Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK! |
Posted By: bradley6874
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:39am
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Pull the plugs might be water holding it ------------- You can wash the dirt off the body but you can’t wash the farmer out of the heart and soul |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 7:24am
| Make sure there isn't a bolt threaded into the side of the bellhousing jammimg the flywheel. This has happened many times. |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 9:34am
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How long has it been sitting? If it happened quickly, say days of a couple of weeks- sure look for a mechanical problem. If it has been sitting months or more, it could be the old rust in the cylinders. That's what happened to mine. It was sitting in the basement of a barn- even covered, the humidity rusted the cylinders that had a valve wide open. 2 was the worst. I eventually got it unstuck without a rebuild (head came off, but not the pan) and it has good compression and runs without smoke. ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 10:59am
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Forcing an engine to turn over by turning the crankshaft or pulling the tractor in gear can bend the connecting rod on the piston stuck going up and that bent connecting rod can break and its remains often punch a hole in the side of the block. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Wispitfiremike
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 1:59pm
| Hi the tractor sat for about a day from last run with the bump start but the starter wouldn't turn it then either, now it won't turn over with the hand crank we just got so now wondering if that was the same problem last time. Starter has been in and out several times spins fine but would not turn over engine. Tried hand crank with plugs out and won't budge. If timing gears not chain I think oil pan is next step, can it be done without removing the front end of a B? |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 2:09pm
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Yeah, just one day? Mechanical. Have you tried to crank the engine with the starter out? Sounds like a mechanical problem other than the starter, but it's one bolt. ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: Wispitfiremike
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 3:39pm
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Took starter out, wont turn, tried plugs out but with starter in, checked bolts that hold cultivator on to make sure they weren't making contact in bellhousing, really don't see option to dropping pan at this point. Are there thrust washers on this engine that may be allowing too much shaft walk that could jam this slightly then release if walked other direction for while? Grasping at straws hoping to avoid teardown, oh well. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 3:47pm
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I agree...not 'siezed' but mechanically 'bound up'. I wouldn't drop pan...maybe last resort... I'd pull plugs and starter, keep them out until it's freed up. Any chance the PTO is engaged and boundup ? I know if you twirl enough tall rye with a rototiller, it'll STOP the engine..... Any chance the tranny is stuck in both say 1st and reverse ? Others who have that series tractor will chime in, just find some shade and relax a bit ! Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:28pm
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Have you tried with the clutch disengaged? The transmission could be stuck in two gears. |
Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 8:51pm
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Might want to take off the rocker cover and make sure all the valves are there! ------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: Ted in NE-OH
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 10:03pm
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There are four 5\8 bolt holes (two on each side) at the front of the torque tube, used to mount implements, if there are bolts in any of the holes they could be too long and hitting the flywheel, that will stop it from turning over. ------------- CA, WD, C, 3 Bs, 2 Gs, WC, I-400, 914 |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 11:42am
| I would try to turn the engine backwards before taking anything apart (if) you don't have bolts in the side of the bellhousing. With the starter out you can turn it with the flywheel teeth using a large screwdriver or pry bar. If the piston should have a valve stuck or dropped down it should turn backwards some. |
Posted By: Wispitfiremike
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 11:21pm
| Hi sorry was working late today, the bolts on the outside we had on the cultivator were removed and tractor rolls in neutral with clutch out. Have had starter out but never thought to try to back up flywheel, will try that tomorrow to see if it has any effect. We have had intermittent problems with what we thought was starter for sometime but I think this issue is the real culprit just have to figure out what it is. Gained a couple more things to try tonight. Again thanks for ideas. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 5:54am
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I see you tried removing the spark plugs? This is a heads up for other people that may have the same problem I did. I (very) recently tried to start my D-17 (series IV). It turned a little, then wouldn't turn any more. The float in the carb had stuck and filled the cylinders and base with gas. I never thought about gas. I suspected I had a coolant leak and it had filled the cylinders with antifreeze. When I tuned it over with the starter, it shot gas over 20' (so make sure you do it outside!!!) and, since I had just disconnected the plug wires, I had an instant inferno. My wife called the fire department, but I got it out before they arrived.
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Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 9:11am
| WF,you didn't think that one clear through did ya? |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 9:28am
Don't feel bad. I had this Yamaha XS400 motorcycle that a buddy gave me that had sat for about 12 years. Prior to starting it up, I sprayed quite a big of WD-40 in the cylinders to lubricate the bore. I didn't mention that it was winter.....I was heating my garage with a kerosene heater. When I kicked over the engine, WD-40 shot out the spark plug hole (I must have used a lot) and into the Kerosene heater....I put the fire out, but I nearly burned down the house. Wait, maybe we both should feel bad. ------------- 1951 B |
WF owner wrote:Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 9:39am
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what don't kill ya, makes ya smarter! I've had a few plans in my life that I obviously didn't think all the way through! If I live long enough, I'll be real smart! ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 10:23am
| check for stuck valves from old varnished gas mixed with new gas |
Posted By: Wispitfiremike
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2019 at 10:01pm
| Update time, drained the oil and got a large amount of pure green antifreeze out before the oil came out. ? Removed the rocker cover and found some evidence that anti freeze was there for awhile mixing but more straight green antifreeze. Scratched our heads for awhile but then tried the suggestion that we try to turn the flywheel with starter out. Bingo it moves and it turns over with hand crank. Possible too much pressure from fluid quantity to allow it to turn over? Having never had head off is it possible to get that quantity of fluid without muddying brown from mixing from cooling system into oil thru head gasket or is next step to pull head off? As always the assistance is appreciated. |
Posted By: frnkeore
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 1:02am
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If it were me, I'd spit the tractor and completely disassemble the engine. But, before that, I'd pull the plugs and fill with water and put 5-7 lb on the system, to see what area it leaks the most. ------------- Frank 1959 D17 Series I #24001+, '59 D14 '55 & '59 Ford 850 & 861 Ferguson TO 35 Deluxe, Oliver 70 and 5 more. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 5:33am
| Plain green on the top of the head would only mean it is coming from core plugs that have a holes or more. If it came from a blown head gasket it would not be green after being mixed with a running engine. You could most likely put in new core plugs, clean every thing up and go back to running. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 5:42am
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sounds like 'hydraulic lock' ? where fluid fills the cylinder above the piston. seen that too many times on small riders where gas from tank gets past carb 'anti dieselling valve' then fills combusion chamber, THEN past rings into oil sump. Since yours was 'clean', oil and coolant separate,not a 'muddy mix', I agree with poster about , install new frost plugs, clean it up, fresh fluids and try starting her up. If you're lucky, she'll be fine for another 50 years ! ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: dt1050
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 7:07am
dito ------------- Just cause it's orange don't make it a tractor, there's only one..Allis Chalmers |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 10:24am
Good advice ! Always try the simplest and least expensive solution first. I'm betting the frost plugs are the problem. Even if they look ok, they may look worse from the other side. There is no sense in pulling apart an engine that doesn't need it.
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Posted By: Wispitfiremike
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 1:35pm
| Freeze plugs or frost plugs it is, so next question where can I find them in Wisconsin? |
Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 1:47pm
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If it was frost plugs, wouldn't it be leaking on the outside and not internally into the oil? ------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 2:01pm
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I think these 'frost plugs' are on the head itself , I've seen pix here of them..remove valcover, look straight down under valve train... 'frost plugs' is a bad name, maybe oversized Welch plugs is better ?? I think they're used to fill the hole after some 'machining' is done.... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 2:07pm
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Just went thru this for D15II (160 motor) and could not find anyone locally that had them, nor were bothered with ordering them. We all know how most "counter babies" can be clueless at auto parts stores and I actually visited one that it should have been no problem for as a national chain. Put my old plug on the counter (chisel slot that I opened up with a punch during removal) and the kid behind the counter stated "I don't know what it is but I guarantee we don't have any with a hole in them like that" . . . . Looked thru the boxes they had in the back with the store manager and we could not find any "tall" enough. I wanted OEM style and had built up a wish list including valve cover gasket (also no luck ordering locally) and the valve cover grommets so put together an order via Sandy Lake Implement, arrived today. $1.42 ea. at Sandy Lake and Brenda can set you up: 724-376-2489 Best to change all of them while you are in there as you never know when one will fail, took very little effort to fall right through mine as they were rotten. I had serviced this tractor originally bought for parts nearly two years ago and pulled the stick last month before moving it from the back of the shop where it was buried. Two qts. overfilled on the dipstick and pulled same from pan before refilling rad and pulling valve cover. Blotted out plugs and drop of green antifreeze showed up instantly. Hopefully that will sort yours and no damage to bearings from antifreeze, I will be changing oil twice on this ol' gal as it will be put to work, D15II factory 3-pt. SFW with optional spool valves.
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Posted By: chaskaduo
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 3:38pm
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Core plug is the same for the B and C by the parts book, AGCO # 70203093. ------------- 1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp |
Posted By: frnkeore
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 4:20pm
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My question is, if it's the core plugs, in the head, how is the antifreeze, getting in the cylinder to lock it up? ------------- Frank 1959 D17 Series I #24001+, '59 D14 '55 & '59 Ford 850 & 861 Ferguson TO 35 Deluxe, Oliver 70 and 5 more. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 4:56pm
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Core plugs! The plugs used to plug holes in sand casting, they are placed in the castings to remove the sand used to make hollow internal passages. This head had a leak in one of the core plugs wrongly called freeze plugs.  I replaced them all but I found the one leaking ,that I couldn't see, using a torch. The tiny pin hole turned red at the pin hole.  I didn't read he found fluid in the cylinder. I read that he was able to use a pry bar to move the flywheel and then could turn it with a crank. The engine not turning with the starter may or may not be connected to the green antifreeze on top of the head and in the pan. Replacing oil with water could cause it to turn hard enough to stall the starter. When the engine has fresh oil and new freeze plugs it will start the next chapter with new problems if they exist. 
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Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 4:05pm
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Something else to consider is vermin in the bell housing. It's possible a big mouse condo got balled up and jammed the flywheel. Several years ago when I was still at the Ford dealer they had sold a new GT350 Mustang to a customer who was known for spinning donuts and completely burning off the back tires first thing off the lot. (He had more money than sense) One day it showed up on a roll back and he said it just quit running coming down an off ramp to a stop. It was seized tight. Ford said to not touch it, they would send an engineer to look at it. The engineer verified it was indeed seized and ordered a fully dressed engine for it. As I went to pull it out, I had considerable difficulty separating it from the trans. All at once when it did separate, I heard a tink noise. There was a mangled bolt that had backed out of the front of the trans and when he stepped on the clutch and brake, it rolled forward and got stuck between the flywheel teeth and bell housing locking the engine. You never know what varmints will bring in there... ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Wispitfiremike
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 12:04am
| We check all of the suggestions here as they have been proven by others experiences, and if part or all work we have again helped out the next guy who might say you know that sounds like what we have going on too. II already called the number provided above and ordered the parts which they have on order but great resource as she knew exactly what I was looking for. |