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GonzoCSU 
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 Topic: High Compression Starter help
Posted: 23 Aug 2010 at 11:49pm |
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I have been searching the forums and found a lot of good information but not the exact answer I am looking for. My buddy has a WD pulling tractor which runs great and is very competitive but we keep breaking starters. We have 3 starters, 2 are standard WD starters and one is a gear reduction starter. The standard starters will not even turn the engine over a full revolution. We basically just bump the starter and if the engine is in the right position it will fire and start but if the engine backfires the nose cone on the starter gets broken. The gear reduction starter keeps shearing the key on the gear off. We have 2 12 volt batteries wired in parallel so we should have plenty of amps to crank it over. Someone suggested putting a ignition retarder box on for starting but that won't solve the problem of not being able to turn the engine a full revolution. Is there a way to build a stronger starter or a starter off a different tractor that will turn this engine over? Thanks for the help.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 6:55am |
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wire the batterys in series it will start . dont let the motor roll backwards clutch it before it luggs all the way down. They are some 12 volt 2.4 kw ccw coils for it also . the amps of the batterys in parallel will burn the starter up quicker than the in rush of the 24 volts . once the starter turns it will turn faster at less amps on the 24 than it will dragging on 12 volts and high amps.
Edited by mlpankey - 24 Aug 2010 at 7:06am
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 7:07am |
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By backfire I assume you mean it's kicking back on the starter? Any old hot rodder with a distributer machine can change things around so your total advance remains the same but the initial will be retarded so it quits kicking back on the starter. Steve NJ comes to mind. You also need to run fuel up to the task of dealing with whatever your compression ratio is. If its just your compression pressure that breaking the starter none of this applies.
Edited by Butch(OH) - 24 Aug 2010 at 7:08am
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mlpankey
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Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 7:12am |
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they will pull better and run better if they have the advance locked out and run total timming for a given rpm. If it has the compression to create starter promblems it shouldnt have enough total timing with the advance locked out to create a starting issue. 400 plus cubes at 15.3 comp ratio no avdance start it fine untill the pull switch burns up.
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GonzoCSU
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Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 8:38am |
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It runs so well I am a little hesitant to start messing with the timing. I have thought about locking out the timing and getting a timing box for it but I am just trying to take it one step at a time and get a starter that will turn the engine over first. If I could get a starter that would crank the engine over I could get the engine cranking then hit the ignition. Any idea where I might be able to find those 12 volt coils?
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mlpankey
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Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 9:19am |
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They are for a 14 mt delco marine starter such as a mercruiser with a 454 bbc . the 2.4 kw is the high torque coils. I still run batteries in series and not in parrallel when using these coils also use a stud terminal and a solenoid from warren wench. ford solenoids dont hold up to the 24 volts. remedy to keep the pull switch from burning up they are 30 dollars a piece these days.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 11:59am |
in this post i tell how to keep voltage to ignition box to 12 to 16 volts depending on battery used in series
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Dusty MI 
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Posted: 14 Aug 2010 at 9:02am |
Are there any Allis's that have an ignition that starts on 12 volts and runs on 6 volts? If so which model? I'd like to see the wiring diagram for it.
Dusty |
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III |
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DaveKamp
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Quote Reply Posted: 14 Aug 2010 at 5:16pm |
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None that I'm aware of, but a starter solenoid with an IGN terminal, and a ballast-resistor in the coil primary circuit does essentially that. Look at any automotive application of the 50's on, and if you see a ballast resistor in series with the primary circuit, you'll see that there's another wire... when the starter solenoid is energized, there's a bypass wire that feeds full available battery voltage to the coil, and when you release the key, the ballast resistor becomes the running current path. |
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Dusty MI
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Quote Reply Posted: 14 Aug 2010 at 5:51pm |
Thanks Dave that's what I had planned, I think it may need a diode to prevent a back feed.
My ignition switch is getting touchy so I thought that maybe there was a switch that would do the job.
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III |
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Gerald J.
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Quote Reply Posted: 14 Aug 2010 at 6:08pm |
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Standard on new generation JD tractors. 6 volt coil with external resistor for 12 volts. A contact on the starter solenoid supplies 12 volts to the coil while cranking.
You don't need a diode, you need a relay. Something like the $3.95 cube relay sold at most auto stores will do just fine. Wire the coil in parallel with the coil on the starter solenoid (usually one side is grounded and the start switch or button supplies 12 volts). Wire one of the normally open contacts to the battery, and the other to the coil side of the resistor. Or more simply for the contacts, wire them so when energized, the relay shorts out the coil. If wired from the battery to the coil that will let the engine start when the ignition switch has gone bad but it stops as soon as you let off on the start button. My JD 4020 did that while making hay from bad wiring under the dash. I hot wired from the battery to the resistor to keep it running to finish the hay making. Then I removed the &*)(&(*^%$*&^%(*&%^ Scotch tap from the ignition circuit.
Gerald J.
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Jim Guarino,Agri-Ser
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Quote Reply Posted: 15 Aug 2010 at 11:29pm |
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The D17 series IV used a bypass ignition with a 6 volt coil and an ignition resistor. |
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Steve in NJ
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Quote Reply Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 8:45am |
Don't ya just love those Scotch loks? LOL! One of the main reasons why Trailer wiring doesn't work. Gotta' love these Trailer mfrs the way they wire their products. Cheap, cheap, cheap, fast, fast, fast, is the name of the game I guess. Quality gets tossed to the side, and after a year or so its fix, fix, fix...!!
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ernie (ECIN)
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Quote Reply Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 8:50am |
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I have removed everyone of those connectors for my trailer harnesses and soldered the connections, put a shrink tube on them then tape them with the heavy rubber tape and electrical tape to finish it off. My boys hate this, but I don't have any more problems with the traler connections now. |
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mlpankey
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Quote Reply Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 10:23am |
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MY STARTER IS WIRED FOR 28 VOLTS AND MY IGNITION IS ON 16 VOLTS cause the msd box cant handle more than 18 volts . thats a 12 volt battery in series with a 16 volt race battery . The negative on the race battery goes to ground so I can wire the ignition box ground to the negative of the race battery and its positive post and have only 16 volts to the ignition. One set of cells . can do the same with two six volt batterys . positive of one goes to the starter the negative of that battery goes to the positive of battery two .Battery twos negative goes to the tractor frame keep all 6 volt gauges and switches wired to battery two.
Edited by mlpankey - 17 Aug 2010 at 10:31am |
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I like pulling against people who dont pay close attention to the little details ,however more are purchasing engines from builders who do. |
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Ken(MI)
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Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 4:02pm |
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I know from experience with my military truck that pulling voltage from only one of two batteries wired in series will have an adverse effect on at least one, if not both batteries, no matter how little or how much you take off.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 5:00pm |
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If this engine has big cubes and lots of compression, the total running timing (1500 rpm or more) should be around 12 to 15 degrees BTDC, not 25 to 30 degrees like standard engine timing. So, that being said, if the centrifugal advance is working normally/properly (like it should) the timing would be AFTER TDC when cranking....that is if the advance is working like it should. If the timing is ATDC ( while cranking) I can't imagine breaking the starter nose.....unless the racing gas isn't 114 octane????
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GonzoCSU
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Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 5:29pm |
 DrAllis wrote:
If this engine has big cubes and lots of compression, the total running timing (1500 rpm or more) should be around 12 to 15 degrees BTDC, not 25 to 30 degrees like standard engine timing. So, that being said, if the centrifugal advance is working normally/properly (like it should) the timing would be AFTER TDC when cranking....that is if the advance is working like it should. If the timing is ATDC ( while cranking) I can't imagine breaking the starter nose.....unless the racing gas isn't 114 octane???? |
We are running 110 octane. I am not sure exactly what the timing is set at. If I have time tonight (and find someone to help me pull start it) I will take a look at the timing.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 7:12am |
If you can pull start it . Compression isnt whats keeping the starter from turning. Ours drags both wheels when trying to pull it off . but the 24 volts to the starter cranks her. If your worried about kens adverse suggestion use a solenoid to seperate the batteries . the batteries will only be hooked positive to negative when the solenoid is energized for starting. If you have more than 12.1 compression you need more octane than 110 advertized you will need a minimum 110 mon which will make the advertized octane rating higher than 110. but dont believe me for i only pull stock allis engines. I just add 7 al 2 ignition boxes and 16 volt racing batteries to it for impressive show and to have something to waste money on. intimidation always beats hp not .lol
Edited by mlpankey - 25 Aug 2010 at 7:29am
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TedBuiskerN.IL.
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Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 7:19am |
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You might try a 12 volt diesel starter and run it on 24 volts. I think it will bolt right in.
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Most problems can be solved with the proper application of high explosives.
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mlpankey
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Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 7:31am |
mlpankey wrote:
If you can pull start it . Compression isnt whats keeping the starter from turning. Ours drags both wheels when trying to pull it off . but the 24 volts to the starter cranks her. If your worried about kens adverse suggestion use a solenoid to seperate the batteries . the batteries will only be hooked positive to negative when the solenoid is energized for starting. If you have more than 12.1 compression you need more octane than 110 advertized you will need a minimum 110 mon which will make the advertized octane rating higher than 110. but dont believe me for i only pull stock allis engines. I just add 7 al 2 ignition boxes and 16 volt racing batteries to it for impressive show and to have something to waste money on.Learned last year that msd 6 boxes were only good for compression ratios up to 12.5.1. intimidation always beats hp not .your making more trouble out of starting one than it is . its simple and if you dont believe me you can ask chris carter also. lol |
Edited by mlpankey - 25 Aug 2010 at 7:34am
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 8:17am |
I build some kick-ass starter motors for puller tractors. They're not cheap because they're custom built, but they do the job. No complaints yet. Drop me a line if interested......
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CJohnS MI
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Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 8:35am |
Steve in NJ wrote:
I build some kick-ass starter motors for puller tractors. They're not cheap because they're custom built, but they do the job. No complaints yet. Drop me a line if interested......
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You're not the only one - check out this solution:  Has many features: 1. No pesky "nose" to break off 2. Easy visual inspection - even from the operator's seat 3. Expandable - need more torque - add a bracket & another starter 4. Backup power - battery dies - wind a rope around the pulley & give a yank 5. Non-denominational - can use almost any brand starter - the Ford is just one. In addition, it can be used for: 1. cracking walnuts 2. crimping straw 3. opening the ends of tough potato chip bags 4. zig-zag french fries 5. speed-winding line onto your new open-face deep-water fishing reel
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JPG AUSTRALIA
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Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 8:56am |
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cjohns that is funny,what a set up!
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mlpankey
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Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 9:25am |
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sometimes whats funny is you give a guy the info on coils and a battery configuration that makes a kick ss starter and they dont believe . Maybe he can purchase a john deere G and a belt to hook up belt pulley to belt pulley surely that will produce enough torque to crank it.
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Goose
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Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 9:52am |
What about a compression release mechanism? I know I used to put them in high compression motorcycles with kick start.
They also work well in chainsaws.
Once the engine starts, the release pops off so it has full compression.
Isn't the same prinicipal used for Jake Brakes?
Edited by Goose - 26 Aug 2010 at 9:53am
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Steve M C/IL
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Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 12:59pm |
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Jake brake opens exaust valve at top of compression stroke.Wouldn't help much in this situation.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 1:03pm |
I like Ted's idea for trying a diesel starter. It's got to be stronger built than a gas. Will it fit is the only question.
I have no doubts that Mitch's modifications work well. I would think a diesel starter has a stronger nose cone. Ever tried one Mitch?
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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mlpankey
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Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 1:10pm |
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no they are too expensive to modify . Gonzo csu said in his first post he had one and was having trouble with it. The only time I have broken nose cones is from one of two things. 1 leaving starter in bell housing when removing or installing engine. 2 . letting it kick back or roll backwards when lugged . I would love for someone to send me a starter that a single 12 volt 800 cca battery would crank my tractor over . If it would .I would pay them but most want paid immediately wither it works or not . I should say that I have been talking to a custom starter manufacturer who can make a high torque starter just need alot of others with deep pockets to be interested to get them interested. So I have been doing what I mentioned above and it works . To say it works well is a matter of opnion . Seams when I get one trouble free I go and increase the compression ratio along with the cubic inches which puts me back to working on ways to make a oem starter work . So far I have been able to.
Edited by mlpankey - 26 Aug 2010 at 1:22pm
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CJohnS MI
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Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 1:26pm |
mlpankey wrote:
sometimes whats funny is you give a guy the info on coils and a battery configuration that makes a kick ss starter and they dont believe . Maybe he can purchase a john deere G and a belt to hook up belt pulley to belt pulley surely that will produce enough torque to crank it. |
 ...as specified - 2 JDs on one belt.
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GonzoCSU
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Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 10:44pm |
mlpankey wrote:
sometimes whats funny is you give a guy the info on coils and a battery configuration that makes a kick ss starter and they dont believe . |
I never said I didn't believe you. I have a couple starters lying around but I can't seem to find the 14MT coils.
I took the gear reduction starter to a local machine shop to have a second keyway cut into the gear and shaft but they said the gear is hardened so they can't cut a keyway in it. We are looking into have a new gear made.
We have a starter timing box coming so that should help once we find a starter that will turn the engine over. In case you are wondering here is a pic. 
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mlpankey
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Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 6:55am |
Again hook the two batterys in series and the starters you have laying around will start it . no need for a timing retard box . how many cubic inches is it . Carb looks small in picture. 400 cubic inches 85 percent v/e @ 1.5 hg requires a cfm of 206 @2100 rpm to adequately fill the cylinders and updrafts where sized at 5 hg instead 1.5 . ebay complete 14 mt ccw starter 129.00
Edited by mlpankey - 27 Aug 2010 at 7:15am
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kendak
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Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 9:17pm |
sounds like your buddy doesn't know his own tractor...what is his C.R. & cyl. pressure ?...I pulled a 45 with 13.5 to 1 cr. & 325psi. cyl. pressure for 3yrs. & started it with stock starter & a wally world 750cca. battery.....if it kicks back it's got waaay to much timing in it...ran mine at about 8 degrees BTDC & then got smart & ran it up to 12 BTDC & got 5 hooks in before it cracked all pistons....pull the timing out of it & you'll be able to start & will lug better at the end of the track....take care
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NNYACAL
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Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 9:18pm |
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Haven't heard anyone here mention that Delco offers a bearing kit that goes between the end of the armature windings and the starter bendix drive. This allows for the fields to be set closer to produce more torque without dragging Also keeps armature shaft from flexing and cracking nose cone.
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G,IB,B,C,CA,RC,WC,WF,WD,WD45,D14,D17SERIES 1,2,4
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mlpankey
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Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 1:18pm |
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well? did you get it started over the weekend?
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BCPuller
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Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 3:44pm |
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What are you using the tank on front for?
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cbt1124
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Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 12:39am |
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Before you go through all the trouble of finding another "Beefed-up" starter for your tractor, why don't you pull all the plug wires off and try to crank the engine over with no spark. This will show you whether your problem is too much compression or ignition load.I believe you will find out that your problem is with advanced timing. Just my 2 cents!!! Please give it a try and let us know...
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cbt1124
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Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 12:47am |
Steve M C/IL wrote:
Jake brake opens exaust valve at top of compression stroke.Wouldn't help much in this situation. |
Jake brakes work just the opposite of what you are saying. Jake brakes actually only open the exhaust valves 1/2 of their normal stroke when the engine is in deceleration mode, the moment you touch the throttle or the clutch the Jake brake is deactivated
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