High Compression Starter help
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Topic: High Compression Starter help
Posted By: GonzoCSU
Subject: High Compression Starter help
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2010 at 11:49pm
| I have been searching the forums and found a lot of good information but not the exact answer I am looking for. My buddy has a WD pulling tractor which runs great and is very competitive but we keep breaking starters. We have 3 starters, 2 are standard WD starters and one is a gear reduction starter. The standard starters will not even turn the engine over a full revolution. We basically just bump the starter and if the engine is in the right position it will fire and start but if the engine backfires the nose cone on the starter gets broken. The gear reduction starter keeps shearing the key on the gear off. We have 2 12 volt batteries wired in parallel so we should have plenty of amps to crank it over. Someone suggested putting a ignition retarder box on for starting but that won't solve the problem of not being able to turn the engine a full revolution. Is there a way to build a stronger starter or a starter off a different tractor that will turn this engine over? Thanks for the help. |
Replies:
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 6:55am
|
wire the batterys in series it will start . dont let the motor roll backwards clutch it before it luggs all the way down. They are some 12 volt 2.4 kw ccw coils for it also . the amps of the batterys in parallel will burn the starter up quicker than the in rush of the 24 volts . once the starter turns it will turn faster at less amps on the 24 than it will dragging on 12 volts and high amps. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 7:07am
| By backfire I assume you mean it's kicking back on the starter? Any old hot rodder with a distributer machine can change things around so your total advance remains the same but the initial will be retarded so it quits kicking back on the starter. Steve NJ comes to mind. You also need to run fuel up to the task of dealing with whatever your compression ratio is. If its just your compression pressure that breaking the starter none of this applies. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 7:12am
|
they will pull better and run better if they have the advance locked out and run total timming for a given rpm. If it has the compression to create starter promblems it shouldnt have enough total timing with the advance locked out to create a starting issue. 400 plus cubes at 15.3 comp ratio no avdance start it fine untill the pull switch burns up. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: GonzoCSU
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 8:38am
| It runs so well I am a little hesitant to start messing with the timing. I have thought about locking out the timing and getting a timing box for it but I am just trying to take it one step at a time and get a starter that will turn the engine over first. If I could get a starter that would crank the engine over I could get the engine cranking then hit the ignition. Any idea where I might be able to find those 12 volt coils? |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 9:19am
|
They are for a 14 mt delco marine starter such as a mercruiser with a 454 bbc . the 2.4 kw is the high torque coils. I still run batteries in series and not in parrallel when using these coils also use a stud terminal and a solenoid from warren wench. ford solenoids dont hold up to the 24 volts. remedy to keep the pull switch from burning up they are 30 dollars a piece these days. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 11:59am
in this post i tell how to keep voltage to ignition box to 12 to 16 volts depending on battery used in series
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Topic: igintion
Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 4:02pm
| I know from experience with my military truck that pulling voltage from only one of two batteries wired in series will have an adverse effect on at least one, if not both batteries, no matter how little or how much you take off. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 5:00pm
| If this engine has big cubes and lots of compression, the total running timing (1500 rpm or more) should be around 12 to 15 degrees BTDC, not 25 to 30 degrees like standard engine timing. So, that being said, if the centrifugal advance is working normally/properly (like it should) the timing would be AFTER TDC when cranking....that is if the advance is working like it should. If the timing is ATDC ( while cranking) I can't imagine breaking the starter nose.....unless the racing gas isn't 114 octane???? |
Posted By: GonzoCSU
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 5:29pm
We are running 110 octane. I am not sure exactly what the timing is set at. If I have time tonight (and find someone to help me pull start it) I will take a look at the timing.
|
DrAllis wrote:Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 7:12am
|
If you can pull start it . Compression isnt whats keeping the starter from turning. Ours drags both wheels when trying to pull it off . but the 24 volts to the starter cranks her. If your worried about kens adverse suggestion use a solenoid to seperate the batteries . the batteries will only be hooked positive to negative when the solenoid is energized for starting. If you have more than 12.1 compression you need more octane than 110 advertized you will need a minimum 110 mon which will make the advertized octane rating higher than 110. but dont believe me for i only pull stock allis engines. I just add 7 al 2 ignition boxes and 16 volt racing batteries to it for impressive show and to have something to waste money on. intimidation always beats hp not .lol ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: TedBuiskerN.IL.
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 7:19am
|
You might try a 12 volt diesel starter and run it on 24 volts. I think it will bolt right in. ------------- Most problems can be solved with the proper application of high explosives. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 7:31am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 8:17am
|
I build some kick-ass starter motors for puller tractors. They're not cheap because they're custom built, but they do the job. No complaints yet. Drop me a line if interested......
mailto:Steve@B&B - Steve@B&B
|
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 8:35am
You're not the only one - check out this solution:  Has many features: 1. No pesky "nose" to break off 2. Easy visual inspection - even from the operator's seat 3. Expandable - need more torque - add a bracket & another starter 4. Backup power - battery dies - wind a rope around the pulley & give a yank 5. Non-denominational - can use almost any brand starter - the Ford is just one. In addition, it can be used for: 1. cracking walnuts 2. crimping straw 3. opening the ends of tough potato chip bags 4. zig-zag french fries 5. speed-winding line onto your new open-face deep-water fishing reel |
Posted By: JPG AUSTRALIA
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 8:56am
| cjohns that is funny,what a set up! |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 9:25am
|
sometimes whats funny is you give a guy the info on coils and a battery configuration that makes a kick ss starter and they dont believe . Maybe he can purchase a john deere G and a belt to hook up belt pulley to belt pulley surely that will produce enough torque to crank it. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Goose
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 9:52am
|
What about a compression release mechanism? I know I used to put them in high compression motorcycles with kick start.
They also work well in chainsaws.
Once the engine starts, the release pops off so it has full compression.
Isn't the same prinicipal used for Jake Brakes?
|
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 12:59pm
| Jake brake opens exaust valve at top of compression stroke.Wouldn't help much in this situation. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 1:03pm
|
I like Ted's idea for trying a diesel starter. It's got to be stronger built than a gas. Will it fit is the only question.
I have no doubts that Mitch's modifications work well. I would think a diesel starter has a stronger nose cone. Ever tried one Mitch? ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 1:10pm
|
no they are too expensive to modify . Gonzo csu said in his first post he had one and was having trouble with it. The only time I have broken nose cones is from one of two things. 1 leaving starter in bell housing when removing or installing engine. 2 . letting it kick back or roll backwards when lugged . I would love for someone to send me a starter that a single 12 volt 800 cca battery would crank my tractor over . If it would .I would pay them but most want paid immediately wither it works or not . I should say that I have been talking to a custom starter manufacturer who can make a high torque starter just need alot of others with deep pockets to be interested to get them interested. So I have been doing what I mentioned above and it works . To say it works well is a matter of opnion . Seams when I get one trouble free I go and increase the compression ratio along with the cubic inches which puts me back to working on ways to make a oem starter work . So far I have been able to. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 1:26pm
 ...as specified - 2 JDs on one belt. |
Posted By: GonzoCSU
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 10:44pm
I never said I didn't believe you. I have a couple starters lying around but I can't seem to find the 14MT coils. I took the gear reduction starter to a local machine shop to have a second keyway cut into the gear and shaft but they said the gear is hardened so they can't cut a keyway in it. We are looking into have a new gear made. We have a starter timing box coming so that should help once we find a starter that will turn the engine over. In case you are wondering here is a pic.
 |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 6:55am
|
Again hook the two batterys in series and the starters you have laying around will start it . no need for a timing retard box . how many cubic inches is it . Carb looks small in picture. 400 cubic inches 85 percent v/e @ 1.5 hg requires a cfm of 206 @2100 rpm to adequately fill the cylinders and updrafts where sized at 5 hg instead 1.5 . ebay complete 14 mt ccw starter 129.00 ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: kendak
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 9:17pm
|
sounds like your buddy doesn't know his own tractor...what is his C.R. & cyl. pressure ?...I pulled a 45 with 13.5 to 1 cr. & 325psi. cyl. pressure for 3yrs. & started it with stock starter & a wally world 750cca. battery.....if it kicks back it's got waaay to much timing in it...ran mine at about 8 degrees BTDC & then got smart & ran it up to 12 BTDC & got 5 hooks in before it cracked all pistons....pull the timing out of it & you'll be able to start & will lug better at the end of the track....take care |
Posted By: NNYACAL
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 9:18pm
|
Haven't heard anyone here mention that Delco offers a bearing kit that goes between the end of the armature windings and the starter bendix drive. This allows for the fields to be set closer to produce more torque without dragging Also keeps armature shaft from flexing and cracking nose cone. ------------- G,IB,B,C,CA,RC,WC,WF,WD,WD45,D14,D17SERIES 1,2,4 |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 1:18pm
|
well? did you get it started over the weekend? ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: BCPuller
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 3:44pm
| What are you using the tank on front for? |
Posted By: cbt1124
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 12:39am
| Before you go through all the trouble of finding another "Beefed-up" starter for your tractor, why don't you pull all the plug wires off and try to crank the engine over with no spark. This will show you whether your problem is too much compression or ignition load.I believe you will find out that your problem is with advanced timing. Just my 2 cents!!! Please give it a try and let us know... |
Posted By: cbt1124
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 12:47am
Jake brakes work just the opposite of what you are saying. Jake brakes actually only open the exhaust valves 1/2 of their normal stroke when the engine is in deceleration mode, the moment you touch the throttle or the clutch the Jake brake is deactivated |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 8:24am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: GonzoCSU
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 7:15pm
|
I have been out of town for the last 2 weeks. I am finally back so here is an update on what is going on. I took the 12 volt custom built gear reduction starter to a local machine shop and they cut a new keyway in the shaft and machined a key to fit. I installed it on the tractor and with the ignition off the starter cranked the engine over VERY slow. I got the engine spinning the flipped on the ignition and bang, she kicked back and the starter would just free wheel. I pulled the starter back off and the gear inside the gear reduction was broke in half. Pulls are pretty much done around my area now and fall field work is starting so I am putting this project on hold until the snow flies. I did do some checking and I was wrong the ignition is locked out. So I think the thing I need to do now is get a starter box to retard the timing and I am going to call a custom starter shop in Minnesota to see if they can find a new gear for the reduction starter.
|
Posted By: cbt1124
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2010 at 2:04pm
| Just as I thought, it was and is an advanced timing issue. I think a starter box that does retard the timing will do the trick. Good luck and please keep us posted on the outcome of you dilemias with this fine looking tractor. |
Posted By: kendak
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2010 at 6:46pm
| you keep running it with the timing that high & you WILL be putting pistons in it ...do you want me to send you some pic. of some distroyed by detanation ?...BTDT... |
Posted By: GonzoCSU
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2010 at 9:45pm
With the timing how high? I never said what it is timed at.
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2010 at 6:52am
|
Come to chatsworth ga friday night or saturdy either one . bring the compression gauge you use on yours and i will show you how i start mine with a higher comp. reading guaranteed. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |