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BuckSkin 
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 Topic: C-Cadet Zero Turn Dies as soon as Park Brake is Re
Posted: 11 May 2024 at 5:07pm |
Okay, I was mowing --- everything working normally --- I stopped to gas up.
I gassed up --- hopped back on and fired it up.
I release the Park Brake and the engine dies --- every time.
I have the switch in my hand and it tests like the electrical diagram says it should --- open circuits close and closed circuits open when the button is pressed.
So far as I can determine, there is nothing wrong with the Park Brake switch.
Like always before, if either "arm" is taken from the Neutral position with the Brake engaged, the engine dies; this part of the equation is still working as it should.
As things are now, I can't move the thing out of it's tracks.
Where do I look now ?
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 11 May 2024 at 5:15pm |
seat switch......?? some are 'smart', both NC and NO circuits AND 'kill contacts' IF the connector is not firmly attached to the seat switch......
these are on 'riders', maybe 'Zero turns' have the same wiring ??
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 11 May 2024 at 5:44pm |
PART 2
Okay --- seat switch is in my hand = a simple two-wire affair.
Button UP - like nobody in the seat = Closed
Press the button the least little bit = Open
Edited by BuckSkin - 11 May 2024 at 8:24pm
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DiyDave
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Posted: 11 May 2024 at 8:30pm |
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PTO switch engaged?
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Codger
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Posted: 11 May 2024 at 8:40pm |
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I've seen several ignition switches go bad suddenly. Engine will start fine but interlock system is not satisfied when the switch is in the "run" position.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 11 May 2024 at 10:01pm |
can you try it without the brake switch ?? ... wires disconnected, or shorted together, which ever it takes..
llike mentioned above.. i would guess it is working with another switch ( pto, seat, cluth, etc)
--------------- Why does my zero turn mower shut off when I release the brake? This problem is normally caused by one of the safety switches. Usually it is the one under the seat or the one on the park brake itself. You can remove the two wires from the seat switch and install a jumper wire to complete the circuit if you would like to test the seat switch.Apr 19, 2022
Edited by steve(ill) - 11 May 2024 at 10:10pm
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 11 May 2024 at 10:15pm |
PART 3
Had the control panel loose and hanging by all the cables to get at this stuff.
To run a few tests without having to put everything back together, I had to get a bit creative.
I have a couple sets of those hand-squeeze spring clamps of various sizes; the ones I have are like my jumper-cables; it takes two hands with the grip of Goliath to squeeze them open.
I put one of the largest size in charge of holding down the "Neutral Switch" button.
I used a medium one plus a 1-1/2 x 3 piece of 1/2-inch plywood to hold down the Park Brake Switch button.
I had the Seat Switch assembled but not mounted; I was holding it in my hand.
No pressure on the Seat button = empty seat
The slightest bit of pressure on the Seat button = somebody in the seat
This thing always has started and ran whether anyone was in the seat or not --- until you either turn On the PTO or release the Park Brake and maybe move a control arm(I can't remember) --- in which case you need weight in the seat to continue.
With the Neutral button held by a clamp and the Park Brake button also held by a clamp and the Seat button in my hand and not pressed, I fired it up.
I carefully replaced my clamp/plywood on the Park Brake Switch with my thumb.
With no pressure on the Seat button, the engine would start to die when the Park Brake button was released.
With the slightest pressure on the Seat button, the engine would continue to run when the Park Brake button was released.
One would assume all is well and the problem was a momentary glitch that has somehow fixed itself.
Edited by BuckSkin - 11 May 2024 at 10:16pm
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 11 May 2024 at 10:33pm |
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dirty contacts INSIDE the seat switch ?? I have tried to shoot contact cleaner into some switches thru the holes on the side, or around the button..
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 11 May 2024 at 10:43pm |
PART 4
So....., I re-installed the Park Brake Switch, a task not for the feeble-hearted.
I re-assembled and bolted everything back together.
I mounted the Seat Switch back in the seat.
Fired it up and checked it out.
To keep the engine running when the Park Brake was released, I had to make a mental note on just exactly where the switch was in relation to the seat cushion and cram my fist down in there as hard as I was able; any less and the engine would die.
Now...., consider that the slightest pressure on that switch when I was hand-holding it was all that was required --- a miniscule amount.
I climbed in the saddle to see if that changed anything = Nope..., release the Brake and engine dies.
Now....., this is where it gets beyond any and all understanding.
Like I already stated, this is just a simple 2-wire yes-or-no normally closed push-button switch; there are no secret contacts or BlueTooth or Internet connections, just plain old-timey manual electrics.
I desperately needed the thing at least moved from where it was sitting badly in the way of progress and normal life; plus, after at least fifteen inches of rain and normal common Kentucky humidity slobbering wet enough that rain is totally unnecessary to have a growing season, the grass around here is getting belt-buckle high.
I already had a spade-ended jumper wire made up for just such occasions.
I will just unplug that switch and either leave it unplugged and unmolested or hot-wire it with my jumper wire; one way or the other she should run......right ?
No matter whether jumpered or not, release the Brake and the engine would die.
I investigated the open end of the plug = no different from any one of a million plugs on any given wiring harness; nothing mysterious here.
I resituated my jumper wire several times = still no go.
Just a few minutes ago, with the Seat Switch plugged in, I could cram my fist down in there and make it work; yet, it seems it matters not whether the circuit is made or not; the engine dies either way.
Explain that ...
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 11 May 2024 at 10:57pm |
PART 5
Desperately needing that thing moved, I plugged the Seat Switch back in and fired it up.
This time, sitting off to one side, I ground that one bony hip deep into the seat cushion, pressing down in there as hard as I could.
It took several relocations and much harder hip pressure; but, I finally found a spot where the engine would remain running.
I didn't move a muscle; not even a twitch.
I managed to mow a large horse lot and drive the thing to a better parking place.
By then, it was pitch dark and I was totally give out from straining to keep my hind-end firmly shoved into that seat.
Keep in mind that when "bench testing" a hard breath was all it took on that switch to keep things going.
Also keep in mind that all was working fine when I ran it up there and shut it down to refuel and then it wouldn't work at all.
And, what about that jumper-wire mystery ? ?Why can't I hot-wire the thing ?
This is enough to make a man go over the hill talking to hisself.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 12 May 2024 at 9:30am |
My Husqvarna has had the "BYPASS" for 18 years... I can figure out if I want the engine turned off when i get off the seat.. Dont need THEIR input ....
Wife has a smal1 10 HP 30 inch step thru that i took the deck off and she uses as a scooter around the neighborhood.. It had a switch that HAD to be plugged in to work.. Disconnect or bypass and it would not stay running !! WHY ?? .. Could not figure it out, so i put a small plate over the button and wrapped duct tape around it to hold the switch DOWN all the time... been that way for 3 years.... fugure there must be a resistor or something inside the switch, besides the contacts ??
Edited by steve(ill) - 12 May 2024 at 9:31am
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 12 May 2024 at 10:36am |
 steve(ill) wrote:
My Husqvarna has had the "BYPASS" for 18 years... I can figure out if I want the engine turned off when i get off the seat.. Dont need THEIR input .... |
This thing is scheduled for complete bypass surgery at the soonest possible; it would already have had it if I could find specific instructions.
Studying the Electrical diagram just about makes my head swim and puts me to sleep quicker than Codeine.
I did manage to successfully eliminate those stupid buttons that kill the PTO whenever you back up; now, forward or backwards, the deck stays engaged; and, I am sure the clutch will live a lot longer for it without all that constant start/stop action.
steve(ill) wrote:
Wife has a smal1 10 HP 30 inch step thru |
What on earth is a "step thru" ? I never heard that term in reference to mowers before.
Back when I was a kid, I knew what old women were talking about when they said "step-ins", but that had nothing to do with mowers. (for those not born long enough ago to understand the common language of Kentucky, "Step-ins" were what the modern girl calls "panties" )
steve(ill) wrote:
i put a small plate over the button and wrapped duct tape around it to hold the switch DOWN all the time...
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Thank You - Thank You - and Thank You again --- you may have just saved me from the nut-house and maybe even the insane asylum.
I would eventually have thought of that myself; but, the break-through may have came too late; once you are locked away in one of those places, the chances of ever getting out again are little to none.
If I ever saw on the news where some poor old quiet farm boy went in on Lawn Mower headquarters with an AK-47 and several 30-round clips, I would definitely understand why and could sympathize with him.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 12 May 2024 at 1:11pm |
Wife has trouble with knees and walking long distance.. I got her this little 30 inch step thru mower with a 10 HP Chink motor.. Leave it in 6th gear and Forward... Choke is on the throttle.... Push in clutch, crank, starts up and ready to go.. Never change gears, never backup .......... Kids call it "Grandmas 4 wheeler". Had to bypass 3-4 different switches to get it to run.
Cheaper and 1/3 the size of a golf cart..... Gots a "TOTE" mounted behind the seat now to carry STUFF.
Edited by steve(ill) - 12 May 2024 at 1:19pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Codger
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Posted: 12 May 2024 at 1:14pm |
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That button to back the machine and keep the deck engaged is about the only one I'll bypass on a riding tractor. I repair several mowers a week this time of year and the past three weeks have been busy. I usually get into the deep seated problems only as almost always electrical so reading an electrical print is second nature once the analogy of the manufacturer is figured out. This keeps the regular mechanic from getting bogged down and customer mowers flowing endlessly through the shop with routine maintenance.
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Codger
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Posted: 12 May 2024 at 1:16pm |
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I have one of those "step through" mower bodies from the mid 1970's we use on a yard cart for sticks and such. 8hp B&S I rebuilt back in the early 1980's and the deck went to pot from rust. Runs and operates well but hasn't mowed grass in almost 40 years.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 12 May 2024 at 9:32pm |
BuckSkin wrote:
...
steve(ill) wrote:
i put a small plate over the button and wrapped duct tape around it to hold the switch DOWN all the time...
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Thank You - Thank You - and Thank You again --- you may have just saved me from the nut-house and maybe even the insane asylum... |
That should fix it  If perchance it does not, then take a very careful look at the wires/terminals going into the button switch. I have had issues with similar areas in the past.
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 12 May 2024 at 10:14pm |
Was telling my cousin about my Seat Switch conundrum and he said he had just went through the same thing with the Seat Switch on his BobCat Loader.
On a BobCat, that switch controls whether you can use the hydraulics or not.
He said his got to where it would be fine one minute and not the next; you could squirm around in the seat and bounce up and down and sooner or later it would give you back control again.
He said a new switch was no better; and, like my situation, there was no way to simply bypass it.
Like me, he said that he could hold the switch in his hand and it would work perfect.
Like steve(ill), he clamped the button down and it now works fine.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 13 May 2024 at 6:07am |
to Steve. If you look at the connector on the wiring harness that goes to the seat switch, you'll see what looks like 'piano wire' on the end of the connector. Those are actually SWITCHES that when you disconnect from the seat GROUND the magneto, stopping the engine. The wiring has No and NC circuits to the seat switch as well as this 'anti-bypass' switch.The NO side prevent PTO running if starting, the NC force you to be in the seat to start. or maybe the other way around.
On my snowthrow rider, I reassembled the seat switch springs and nuts and plate to always 'look' like I'm on the seat. Even then ,vibration can move the connectors apart juust enough to cause PITA random weird stuff.....
I love the 'cut-in-reverse-bypss' BS, Hmm, if it's NOT safe to cut in reverse why did 'they' allow the engineers to ADD more stuff to ALLOW you to cut in reverse ?? Idiots ?
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Dave H
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Posted: 13 May 2024 at 9:25am |
Codger wrote:
I've seen several ignition switches go bad suddenly. Engine will start fine but interlock system is not satisfied when the switch is in the "run" position.
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I just went through this on my toro Z. fiddled with the ignition switch, mow it works and new switch is on order.  |
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 14 May 2024 at 12:23am |
Okay...., I may have solved the mystery of why I could not simply jumper-wire the Seat Switch connector.
First, thanks to steve(ill) who prompted my mind to the right direction of thinking, I came up with a pretty good way to fool my Seat Switch to always think a big-legged old gal was sitting on it.
On my Cub Cadet, the actual Normally-Closed push-button switch is encapsulated within a round plastic "button" housing of about 2-1/2" diameter.
The moving "button" has three tabs that click into three slots.
These slots are about the thickness of two zip-ties wider than the tabs; I used this sloppiness to my advantage.
When I dreamed this up during one of my recent lawn mower nightmares and woke up in a pond of sweat, my original intentions were to drill holes through the plastic for my zip-ties; however, once I got the thing back in my hands, I decided drilling would not be necessary.
I passed a zip-tie through each adjacent pair of slots; three slots; three zip-ties, such that the zip-ties went over the plastic "button".
Snugging the zip-ties squeezed the "button" against the actual switch button and held it firmly down.
Sometime during all this plugging and unplugging of the two-wire connector, the keeper-gizmo that clips over a nubbin and prevents the connection coming apart just broke off - stiff brittle cheap plastic.
With this piece gone, I could better see what I was working with.
I noticed a plastic "ridge" on top and bottom of the actual switch where the two-wire connector plugs in.
I noticed a matching pair of notches on the connector itself; and, I could now see that there was something movable in these notches = something tiny and spring-loaded.
Properly seating the connector pushes against these spring-loaded thingies and is either opening or closing a circuit; probably having the connector unplugged opens the circuit hence is why it ignored my jumper.
So, and I did not test this theory on account of my zip-tie engineering accomplishing my goal, I believe if one is up against this bypassing business again, that two-wire connector is going to have to be clipped off and then things can be done in country boy fashion and be made to work,
You have got to have a good eye and be paying close attention to see these nearly invisible "preventer switches"; I had messed with the thing until I had three nervous breakdowns and a bad spell and never did catch on.
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ac fleet
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Posted: 14 May 2024 at 11:11am |
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got a z-force 48 here and they are a POS!! Poorly made, everything complicated on them and all stupid stuff. Got mine now with key start -- motor on, --- blade switch on and mow! Have NO idea what all that other crap was hooked to and dont care.-- anyway it gone now and life is good! lol!
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 May 2024 at 12:58pm |
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BuckSkin.. i htink your on to something with the "switch"... Jay also alluded to "something else" as part of the switch.... Im still STUCK with the two wires into it... Seems like they are CLOSED or OPEN.. I dont see a third option , even with a "hiden gizmo" on the switch ??
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 14 May 2024 at 1:25pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
BuckSkin.. i htink your on to something with the "switch"... Jay also alluded to "something else" as part of the switch.... Im still STUCK with the two wires into it... Seems like they are CLOSED or OPEN.. I dont see a third option , even with a "hiden gizmo" on the switch ?? |
On my Cub Cadet, the hidden gizmo is within the connector and not in the switch itself.
I almost never did find them, they are that tiny.
One would swear that connector is a plain old connector.
The little ridges of plastic on the switch mate with the tiny notches on the connector and press those tiny spring-loaded mechanisms to make a connection within the end of the connector; pull loose the connector and thus the engagement of the little ridges into the little notches and the tiny springs push the tiny switch contacts to an Open position.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 14 May 2024 at 1:43pm |
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If you have the correct wiring diagram , it will show the 'hidden' switch contacts that are inside the connector.
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 14 May 2024 at 6:31pm |
jaybmiller wrote:
If you have the correct wiring diagram , it will show the 'hidden' switch contacts that are inside the connector.
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I must not have the right ones; neither of my Cub Cadet diagrams show or make mention of them; not the owner's nor the shop manuals.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 14 May 2024 at 6:34pm |
OK, what model is it ? I've got 100-130 CC manuals here on this PC.... ...remember CC is made by MTD
Edited by jaybmiller - 14 May 2024 at 6:35pm
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 May 2024 at 8:10pm |
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yes...i would STILL like to know how a switch with 2 WIRES does 3 different functions.. SOME seat switches have 4 wires, but THIS ONE has 2 !!
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 14 May 2024 at 8:47pm |
easy to answer if I saw the wiring...... which on newer units is a nightmare ! but you have to think about the combinations of seat switch, parking brake switch , PTO switch , neutral switch. IF they used a 'computer '( $1) ALL the wiring would be simplified BUT they'd have to make a 'robust' computer instead of using cheap switches and relays.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 15 May 2024 at 12:15pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
yes...i would STILL like to know how a switch with 2 WIRES does 3 different functions.. SOME seat switches have 4 wires, but THIS ONE has 2 !! |
Ditto
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 15 May 2024 at 12:35pm |
but you have to think about the combinationsof seat switch, parking brake switch , PTO switch , neutral switch.
YEP... you can THINK about other switches and COMBOS all you want.. But if a switch has only 2 WIRES.... what can you get but ON or OFF.??... unless there is an internal RESISTOR that gives a different signal than the "jumper wire" would.
Edited by steve(ill) - 15 May 2024 at 12:36pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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