I gassed up --- hopped back on and fired it up.

I release the Park Brake and the engine dies --- every time.

I have the switch in my hand and it tests like the electrical diagram says it should --- open circuits close and closed circuits open when the button is pressed.

So far as I can determine, there is nothing wrong with the Park Brake switch.

Like always before, if either "arm" is taken from the Neutral position with the Brake engaged, the engine dies; this part of the equation is still working as it should.

As things are now, I can't move the thing out of it's tracks.

Where do I look now ?

seat switch......??

some are 'smart', both NC and NO circuits AND 'kill contacts' IF the connector is not firmly attached to the seat switch......

these are on 'riders', maybe 'Zero turns' have the same  wiring ??

Button UP - like nobody in the seat = Closed

Press the button the least little bit = Open

llike mentioned above.. i would guess it is working with another switch  ( pto, seat, cluth, etc)

---------------

So....., I re-installed the Park Brake Switch, a task not for the feeble-hearted.

I re-assembled and bolted everything back together.

I mounted the Seat Switch back in the seat.

Fired it up and checked it out.

To keep the engine running when the Park Brake was released, I had to make a mental note on just exactly where the switch was in relation to the seat cushion and cram my fist down in there as hard as I was able; any less and the engine would die.

Now...., consider that the slightest pressure on that switch when I was hand-holding it was all that was required --- a miniscule amount.

I climbed in the saddle to see if that changed anything = Nope..., release the Brake and engine dies.

Now....., this is where it gets beyond any and all understanding.

Like I already stated, this is just a simple 2-wire yes-or-no normally closed push-button switch; there are no secret contacts or BlueTooth or Internet connections, just plain old-timey manual electrics.

I desperately needed the thing at least moved from where it was sitting badly in the way of progress and normal life; plus, after at least fifteen inches of rain and normal common Kentucky humidity slobbering wet enough that rain is totally unnecessary to have a growing season, the grass around here is getting belt-buckle high.

I already had a spade-ended jumper wire made up for just such occasions.

I will just unplug that switch and either leave it unplugged and unmolested or hot-wire it with my jumper wire; one way or the other she should run......right ?

No matter whether jumpered or not, release the Brake and the engine would die.

I investigated the open end of the plug = no different from any one of a million plugs on any given wiring harness; nothing mysterious here.

I resituated my jumper wire several times = still no go.

Just a few minutes ago, with the Seat Switch plugged in, I could cram my fist down in there and make it work; yet, it seems it matters not whether the circuit is made or not; the engine dies either way.

Explain that ...

Desperately needing that thing moved, I plugged the Seat Switch back in and fired it up.

This time, sitting off to one side, I ground that one bony hip deep into the seat cushion, pressing down in there as hard as I could.

It took several relocations and much harder hip pressure; but, I finally found a spot where the engine would remain running.

I didn't move a muscle; not even a twitch.

I managed to mow a large horse lot and drive the thing to a better parking place.

By then, it was pitch dark and I was totally give out from straining to keep my hind-end firmly shoved into that seat.

Keep in mind that when "bench testing" a hard breath was all it took on that switch to keep things going.

Also keep in mind that all was working fine when I ran it up there and shut it down to refuel and then it wouldn't work at all.

And, what about that jumper-wire mystery ? ?Why can't I hot-wire the thing ?

This is enough to make a man go over the hill talking to hisself.

Wife has a smal1 10 HP 30 inch step thru that i took the deck off and she uses as a scooter around the neighborhood.. It had a switch that HAD to be plugged in to work.. Disconnect or bypass and it would not stay running !!  WHY ?? .. Could not figure it out, so i put a small plate over the button and wrapped duct tape around it to hold the switch DOWN all the time... been that way for 3 years.... fugure there must be a resistor or something inside the switch, besides the contacts ??

This thing is scheduled for complete bypass surgery at the soonest possible; it would already have had it if I could find specific instructions.

Studying the Electrical diagram just about makes my head swim and puts me to sleep quicker than Codeine.

I did manage to successfully eliminate those stupid buttons that kill the PTO whenever you back up; now, forward or backwards, the deck stays engaged; and, I am sure the clutch will live a lot longer for it without all that constant start/stop action.

Cheaper and 1/3 the size of a golf cart..... Gots a "TOTE" mounted behind the seat now to carry STUFF.

That should fix it

If perchance it does not, then take a very careful look at the wires/terminals going into the button switch. I have had issues with similar areas in the past.

On a BobCat, that switch controls whether you can use the hydraulics or not.

He said his got to where it would be fine one minute and not the next; you could squirm around in the seat and bounce up and down and sooner or later it would give you back control again.

He said a new switch was no better; and, like my situation, there was no way to simply bypass it.

Like me, he said that he could hold the switch in his hand and it would work perfect.

Like steve(ill), he clamped the button down and it now works fine.

to Steve. If you look at the connector on the wiring harness that goes to the seat switch, you'll see what looks like  'piano wire' on the end of the connector. Those are actually SWITCHES  that when you disconnect from the seat GROUND the magneto, stopping the engine. The wiring has No and NC circuits to the seat switch as well as this 'anti-bypass' switch.The NO side prevent PTO running if starting, the NC force you to be in the seat  to start. or maybe the other way around.

On my snowthrow rider, I reassembled the seat switch springs and nuts and plate to always 'look' like I'm on the seat. Even then ,vibration can move the connectors apart  juust enough to cause PITA random weird stuff.....

I love the 'cut-in-reverse-bypss' BS, Hmm, if it's NOT safe to cut in reverse why did 'they' allow the engineers to ADD more stuff to ALLOW you to cut in reverse ?? Idiots ?

I just went through this on my toro Z.  fiddled with the ignition switch, mow it works and new switch is on order. 

First, thanks to steve(ill) who prompted my mind to the right direction of thinking, I came up with a pretty good way to fool my Seat Switch to always think a big-legged old gal was sitting on it.

On my Cub Cadet, the actual Normally-Closed push-button switch is encapsulated within a round plastic "button" housing of about 2-1/2" diameter.

The moving "button" has three tabs that click into three slots.

These slots are about the thickness of two zip-ties wider than the tabs; I used this sloppiness to my advantage.

When I dreamed this up during one of my recent lawn mower nightmares and woke up in a pond of sweat, my original intentions were to drill holes through the plastic for my zip-ties; however, once I got the thing back in my hands, I decided drilling would not be necessary.

I passed a zip-tie through each adjacent pair of slots; three slots; three zip-ties, such that the zip-ties went over the plastic "button".

Snugging the zip-ties squeezed the "button" against the actual switch button and held it firmly down.

Sometime during all this plugging and unplugging of the two-wire connector, the keeper-gizmo that clips over a nubbin and prevents the connection coming apart just broke off - stiff brittle cheap plastic.

With this piece gone, I could better see what I was working with.

I noticed a plastic "ridge" on top and bottom of the actual switch where the two-wire connector plugs in.

I noticed a matching pair of notches on the connector itself; and, I could now see that there was something movable in these notches = something tiny and spring-loaded.

Properly seating the connector pushes against these spring-loaded thingies and is either opening or closing a circuit; probably having the connector unplugged opens the circuit hence is why it ignored my jumper.

So, and I did not test this theory on account of my zip-tie engineering accomplishing my goal, I believe if one is up against this bypassing business again, that two-wire connector is going to have to be clipped off and then things can be done in country boy fashion and be made to work,

You have got to have a good eye and be paying close attention to see these nearly invisible "preventer switches"; I had messed with the thing until I had three nervous breakdowns and a bad spell and never did catch on. 

On my Cub Cadet, the hidden gizmo is within the connector and not in the switch itself.

I almost never did find them, they are that tiny.

One would swear that connector is a plain old connector.

The little ridges of plastic on the switch mate with the tiny notches on the connector and press those tiny spring-loaded mechanisms to make a connection within the end of the connector; pull loose the connector and thus the engagement of the little ridges into the little notches and the tiny springs push the tiny switch contacts to an Open position.

I must not have the right ones; neither of my Cub Cadet diagrams show or make mention of them; not the owner's nor the shop manuals.

OK, what model is it  ? I've got 100-130 CC manuals here on this PC....

...remember CC is made by MTD

easy to answer  if I saw the wiring......

which on newer units is a nightmare !  but you have to think about the combinations

of seat switch, parking brake switch , PTO switch , neutral switch.

IF they used a 'computer '( $1) ALL the wiring would be simplified BUT they'd have to make a 'robust' computer instead of using cheap switches and relays.

steve(ill) wrote: yes...i would STILL like to know how a switch with 2 WIRES does 3 different functions.. SOME seat switches have 4 wires, but THIS ONE has 2 !!

Ditto

The seat switch will be in series and or parallel with other switches or relay contacts.

Again, a wiring diagram will show what's happening, a 'ladder' diagram even easier to see.

In my microcomputer projects I use a lot of on-open-off switches to get THREE unique 'conditions', and my remote energy systems use a 3 level communications bus that has baffled every hacker for 35 years.

To really blow your mind, coin tosses are NOT just heads or tails.

I have worked with relay logic, ladder logic, and digital (computer) logic; I need a proper schematic to trace it out though because every designer has a different way of thinking.

Frequently, the safety circuits have 'fixed' elements (like the park brake switch, switches on the hand control levers, a switch contact through the PTO switch... and then they have a 'dynamic' element... the seat switch.

What does Dave mean by "Dynamic"???

Well, when you're sitting on the seat, bouncing across the yard, you're not actually holding that switch down ALWAYS...  The switch is BoUnCinG!!!

So what the engineer typically does, is use the seat switch signal to control a relay that has a TIME DELAY function in it... so that, as long as the seat switch is closed for MOST of the time, the time-delay relay will maintain a closed contact (like the 'fixed' elements).

It is a 'de-bouncing' circuit.  When those TD relays fail, they either DON'T work, or they DON'T time very well... they become intermittant... goofy... etc.  Usually they're in a little 'black box' module, and the module controls a common automotive plug-in relay.

When the module goes bad, this kind of thing starts to happen.

But just to make it clear-  ANY of the 'fixed' switch elements can cause erratic operation.... they're a 'safety loop', that when any of the 'safety conditions' are broken, it cuts the ignition.  The fact that your brake is the OBSERVABLE 'cause' of the shutdown, simply means that all conditions are (by wiring) considered safe UNTIL you release the brake.  On MY ZTR, if ANY of the hand controls are in the operating sector WHILE the brakes are applied, it kills the ignition.  If I take weight off the seat with the operating handles in a DRIVE position AND brakes are released, after 3 seconds, the system will kill ignition.

The mower I am/was working on is 2006-model Z Force 50 with 2-cylinder Kohler

After I zip-tied the Seat Switch into thinking a very heavy woman was always sitting in the seat, my problem was solved.

I honestly do not believe a brand-shiny-new Seat Switch assembly would have changed my situation at all; everything is there and everything looks good as new; and, everything works wonderfully when bench-testing.

 

I have accessed every hidden wire and switch on this machine and have not found a single relay; just a bunch of Normally Open and Normally Closed push-button switches; most of them having several "poles" , turning one thing ON when another is turned OFF.

In my quest for ideas and answers, I watched a You-Tube video where this guy flies in on a mower and completely cuts away every wire on it; when he got done, he had a wheel-barrow full of wires.

He then re-wired the machine minus all the "safety" junk and didn't use but maybe three wires.

After watching his video, it was tempting for me to do likewise.

We were chopping silage on ground where angels fear to tread when the truck I was driving slid sideways away from the chopper and off over a steep hill and almost into an old abandoned rock quarry full of water.

To the rescue came Massey-Ferguson 2016 Tractor of the Year; big huge 4x4 cab tractor and brand-new.

The guy driving the tractor was no novice.

Once we were all chained up and he started pulling me away from the quarries edge, that big tractor decided to shut down and die and here we went again; truck and tractor both sliding sideways over the hill.

After a bit, he managed to satisfy all the safety requirements and get the tractor started and running again and got us both back on firmer footing.

When he clumb down out of the Tractor of the Year, his only comment was "these modern safety features are gonna get some of us killed"

Help me out Jay on the coin toss....

uploads/351/Z-Force_50_2005-20061.pdf" rel="nofollow - uploads/351/Z-Force_50_2005-20061.pdf

OK, took me 75 seconds to find to find the wiring....

..maybe someone can convert to an 'image' to repost it ?

Jay

OK, had to kill time while coffee was being made......

oopsy... upper right switch is the 'neutral switch'.....

my cut and paste was a tad shaky ( only 1st cup of joe.....)

jay

Thanks for posting the diagram; that appears to be the exact same one I have been looking at.

Ever since I started studying that diagram, I have been puzzled about those two Grounds at extreme right of the picture.

From the actual PTO Clutch, at bottom right, the Green wire is an unbroken path to Engine Ground.

Then, at just above right-center, is a black dot which I take to be a splice/junction, with another wire going through the Kohler Engine Plug to Ground again ----- why both ?

Also, looking at the engine plug, on the engine side is two connected wires, "Afterfire Sol." and "Charging"; they become a Red wire that takes an unbroken path to the "L" terminal of the Key Switch; does this "L" get connected to "B" when the Key is On/Run ?

I am assuming that Red wire is the "Alternator/Charging wire, right ?

Reason I ask about the connecting of the "L" and "B" is that another Red wire junctions with the main Red wire and is 12-volt power to the PTO-Clutch through the PTO Switch, where it splits into the two Blue wires that pass through the Reverse cut-out switches on their way to being power to the clutch itself.

By the way, the best thing I have done to this mower is disabling those Reverse Cutout Switches so that I can now mow when backing up; it makes all the difference in the world in tall/tough grass and whether it gets cut or not.

and I can see no hint nor evidence of the two tiny "secret" switches hidden within the mower side of the Seat Switch plug/connector.

Things are working for me now and I have more pressing matters to attend to; however, if I have to dive into this again, or I get so curious about it that I can't stand it, I intend to cut that plug out of the circuit and thoroughly bench test it to determine just what and when those two tiny switches are doing.

I am convinced that, if that plug were a normal two-wire plug, then it would not/could not ignore any and all attempts at jumper-wiring it.

I bet the "Real" reason for those two secret switches is to force sales of un-needed Seat Switches; people scratch their heads and puzzle while the grass gets taller and the rain keeps coming and they give up and order a new Seat Switch that does nothing to fix their problem but they keep it anyway.

That is known as "The Brother-in-law Effect"; the guy that designed it has a brother-in-law who sells the little switches

BuckSkin wrote: ...does this "L" get connected to "B" when the Key is On/Run ?

Probably.

A proper schematic will show the internal contacts of the ignition switch; it would also actually label the switch so that we would not need to guess. This is really just a wiring diagram rather than a schematic.

BuckSkin wrote: I am assuming that Red wire is the "Alternator/Charging wire, right ?

Again, probably. I am assuming so as well.

BuckSkin wrote: Reason I ask about the connecting of the "L" and "B" is that another Red wire junctions with the main Red wire and is 12-volt power to the PTO-Clutch through the PTO Switch, where it splits into the two Blue wires that pass through the Reverse cut-out switches on their way to being power to the clutch itself.

Yup, that looks pretty straightforward to me too; the 'ignition' switch needs to be able to disconnect the "L" and "B" terminals so as to not discharge the battery when the engine isn't running but needs to connect them to start the engine and charge the battery.

Since it has a magneto ignition, the 'Ignition' switch doesn't need to supply power to a coil. Most of the circuitry is dedicated to killing the magneto. It is interesting that it shows two Neutral switches, are there really two of them?

 

Kohler is clever, the 'charging' module is tied to the 'afterfire solenoid' ON the engine. If you spun the engine,say with recoil starter', engine runs without need of a battery. You need to understand that if a manufacturer can make a 'generic' device (engine in this case )it can be easily used in several devices NOT specific to just one mower seriers of one brand.

As for the grounds, often it's how the wiring harness is made and installed.

Yes, RED, is the alternator/rectifier/regulator output. it goes to 'L' and powers everything. When key is on, it's also on 'B',goes through 20A fuse to recharge the battery. You can pull the 20A fuse and the unit will still run.

Internal connections of the ignition switch are usually shown in a chart and while most Indak switches look the same, Internally they can be quite different so you MUST eplace with one specific to your machine.

The seat switch is just 2 wire, simple SPST switch, NO 'magic' that I can see.

Yes; two Neutral Switches, one each side where the "arms" rest when not in action.

On this machine, if either arm is not against it's Neutral Switch, in the "at rest" position, it will not start; but then, once started, they can be anywhere and it will run; however, once it is running and the Park Brake is engaged, if you move either arm from it's at rest position, against the Neutral Switch, the engine will die; you must first dis-engage the Park Brake and then move the arms.

I guess that is to keep you from running around with the brake engaged.

It looks to me like it would be less wear and tear on the engine and starter/flywheel if, instead of any wrong move killing the engine, a cattle prod were incorporated within the seat and the operator get a bit of wake-me-up juice whenever a wrong maneuver were attempted; the lesson would be long remembered and the operator would be sure to follow proper procedure in the future. 

That would make a good video...

so cut the resistor out and report back what happens.

An 'empirical' test !

I had to compress the switch and clamp it closed to get our small tractor to work.. Could no "bypass" the switch .. ?????? 

the post BELOW is from page 1 of this discussion several months ago-- about the SWITCH.

It's not actually the 'switch' , it's the connector on the wiring harness that's 'special'.

it's designed so if you do remove the seat switch, mag  gets grounded.

the 'trick' is to cut off the special connector.....

I need to look into that SOMEDAY... just too many other projects right now.. and it works with the Switch  clamped CLOSED.

Gateman wrote: It is true because it’s working on my mower right now lol. That’s why I posted it.

If it is, there's either one of three explanations:

1) the diagram Jay found, is not for Buck's mower...

or

2) your mower isn't the same as Buck's mower

or

3) there is something significantly more wrong with your mower, than Buck's.

Based on the diagram, all Buck would need to do to overcome this problem, would be to disconnect the magneto ground wire, at which time, NO safety functions would kill the engine.

Based on the diagram, the switch contacts will short magneto to ground when

A) the seat is unoccupied anytime the park brake is not set OR the PTO is engaged OR either of the hydrostat control levers are NOT in the PARK position.

B) anytime the seat IS occupied, BUT levers are taken out of the PARK position WHILE the brake is set

C) Anytime the brake is set WHILE either or both of the levers are NOT in the park position.

And finally, the PTO is interlocked through BOTH levers' reverse position switches.  It's an AND circuit... For steering, EITHER lever can be in a reverse position by itself, but if BOTH are drawn into reverse, the PTO will be disengaged.

Safety circuits on everything, especially riding mowers, are NOT feeding microprocessor circuits, they're discrete loops of mechanical contacts.  This is simple safety unreliant upon processors, code, and sensitive circuitry.  On systems that have safety circuitry, you will find 'fail safe' design (meaning, a multi-point failure mode cannot occur in such a way as to leave a machine in an unsafe state), and IF there's any sort of processor inclusion, it has supervisory function (for diagnostic purposes, it can tell you what switch is bad), and in some cases, a microprocessor controller will have a relay output whose contacts are in series with the safety loop, so that it can also become a device able to command a safety shutdown... but if the diagram Jay posted is correct, there is nothing in this system that does that.

The problem that plagues Buck's machine, is most likely a wire, connector, or contact that has either failed to an open state, or failed to a shorted state, as there's no other componentry available to fail.

just found this on SEARCH.... Might be that when you pull the plug off the switch, THE PLUG shorts out the wires.... If you install a jumper you still short out the wire... POSSIBLY there is no way to get an OPEN CIRCUIT except to CUT THE WIRE ??... apparently the switch is NORMALLY CLOSED and when you set on the seat the switch OPENS... but if you unplug it, the PLUG CLOSES..

DaveKamp wrote: ... but if the diagram Jay posted is correct, there is nothing in this system that does that...

I studied this schematic back when it was first posted and came to the same conclusion

As I said before- this is a relay logic circuit.  If you added a resistor, it wasn't the resistor that had any effect, it cannot.  Resistors are not 'magic bullets'. 

So I second Steve and Jay - I would bet that you disconnected the switch right AT the switch, leaving the connector intact.

Steve's blue note above is correct-  on MANY safety switches on these machines, the manufacturer added a shorting leaf to the harness side of the connector that, IF the switch is removed (which would result in an open circuit, thus defeated switch), there's a 'safety leaf' that shorts the wires, causing it to then always kill.  This is to prevent widespread disconnection of the seat safety switch, as that was found to be extremely common when the inclusion of these devices (and the result of their malfunction) appeared in the mid '80s.  It was, in effect, a safety-within-a-safety, which in theory, made sense, but in practice, made matters worse.

This all started, by the way, as a result of the Consumer Product Safety Act of 1972, and rather than doing it through government, they contracted a non-government organization called "Consumer Union" (now a magazine called Consumer Reports) to write it all into rules and regulation.

This was authoritized through 15 USC 2051, and as a result of 15 US Code 2068, grants regulatory authority (by virtue of the Consumer Product Safety Commission) to a private publications magazine.

More references:

US Code Title 16 Chapter II Subchapter B part

US Code 16 CFR 1205

ANSI B71-1-1972

2051 Congressional Findings (determining that the public can't think for themselves)

2052 Definitions

2056 Consumer Product Safety Standards (para (c) is where some dirt is hidden...)

2058 Procedure for consumer product safety code (writing rules)

2063 Certification and Labeling

2063 Prohibited acts (offering it for sale without meeting standards, and enforcement of recalls

2068 Authority (placing it in the control of an NGO)

The truth is in the logic of the wiring diagram.  The insanity, is the path by which it came to us.

gee Dave, one day your head will explode from all the neat info you know.

That will be a very sorry day !!!

My thought is the 'legs' of the 10K open up the 2 switches that short mag to ground.

Could use 100K, 1M, 4K7....toothpicks in connector ..same effect

My favorite, Jay, is the tooth of a plastic fork!  Jamb it in, break it off, and it's good!  ;-)

The seat on my Bob-Cat 60 was suffering the nasty weathered cracked-up vinyl syndrome... y'know, the type that if the missus sits on it, the sharp curled up edges bite into her legs, and the foam (although in the sun) has plenty of moisture in it and soaks her behind.

Well... I solved that.  I made a new seat frame consisting of right and left side rails, and made up a really strong canvas hammock that stretched between the rails on the bottom, and another between rails of the top.  No foam, just flex and stretch... when it rains, the canvas gets wet, but I waxed it lightly, so most beads up and runs off, and what DOES soak in, dries out immediately.

sure... NOW you suggest  a plastic fork NOW that they've been BANNED in Canada,eh !!!

The wooden wonders come wrapped in plastic though........

Sigh, the seat reminds me of the ones in the old twin Beech on floats ,dbl sigh, that was 1/2 century ago.....

DaveKamp wrote: ...the manufacturer added a shorting leaf to the harness side of the connector that, IF the switch is removed (which would result in an open circuit, thus defeated switch), there's a 'safety leaf' that shorts the wires, causing it to then always kill...

This makes sense.

Of course, they neglected to include this in the schematic