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tthams 
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 Topic: Allis Chalmers 821 Power fluid
Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 6:58am |
Greetings everyone!
I was hoping to get some advice. I am changing transmission fluid in my 7060 PS as part of the break in process from a transmission overhaul. The guy that overhauled it uses Cenex fluids. The service book on the tractor calls for 821 Power Fluid which a quick search on the Internet simply means universal trans/hydraulic fluid will work. I never want to go through the pain of having a valve in the valve body lock up again, and planning on using Cenex fluids also at $30/gallon.
To my knowledge newer fluids have extra additives and minerals to help the parts last longer. Since this transmission concept in a 7060 has been around for many years prior to these newer fluids coming out, would the newer fluids be overkill and harm the transmission? Universal trans/hydraulic fluid have a general application for many older tractors, and I simply wonder if the extra minerals and additives might cause the hydraulic pump to work harder.
I am not an expert on this in any fashion, I am just wondering what people that have worked on these machines over the years have noticed. Thanks for any input.
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 7:14am |
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Keep in mind, Cenex, FS, etc., contracts out the refining of their lubricants. Of course, so does John Deere, IH, CAT, etc., no equipment manufacturer owns/operates any refinery that I know of. That’s not to say Cenex products are inferior, we used a lot them, motor oil, grease. We always used Hy-Tran as all the tractors were IH.
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Tbone95
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 7:22am |
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The 821 spec is obviously an "aged" spec, written for what was produced back in the day, to be sure an oil used was up to that spec. Treat that spec as being at least there, all the newer specs are above that, and will list 821 as a spec that's met by the new fluids, and then some. You'd probably have a hard time finding something that was "only" up to 821. There's nothing to your "working harder" concerns in my opinion.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 7:28am |
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Began as 821.......became 821 XL.......now is PermaTran.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 8:24am |
Every equip manufacturer has a "SPEC" for the oil needed in their tractors.. Normally they do not "DREAM UP THE SPEC" ...ALLIS called their "SPEC" 821 ... What they did is look at all the oils available and the makeup of each oil. They pick a mixture that is available , then call it ALLIS 821 ....
For this reason, you can go to Shell, Mobil, Cenex, or several others and look up UNIVERSAL TRACTOR FLUID... and you will see something like "REGULAR or STANDARD", then you will see the "PREMIUM" ..... they may be synthetic or dyno oil base.... Look at the back of the oil bucket and you will see that it meet 5-10 different Manufacturer "SPECS" if it is the STANDARD oil... If it is PREMIUM it will meet 20- 30 different Manufacturer specs.... That is not to say that Cenex is exactly the same as Mobil UTF... They are 95% the same and BOTH meet all the SPECS... but its possible that one as an extra addative, or more of an addative than the other..
Here is a list of every manufacture SPEC that Cenex meets, "dyno and symthetic".. If it meets the SPEC, most people buy by PRICE.
Edited by steve(ill) - 14 Dec 2022 at 8:26am
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 8:59am |
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one thing that bothers me about CENEX and a few others is they state "WE RECOMMEND USING OUR OIL IN THESE APPLICATIONS"..... It does NOT say they are APPROVED by the Manufacturer or RECOMMENDED by the manufacture... It may well be a good oil .. but i would prefer to see "APPROVED FOR" instead of "WE" Recommend.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 10:30am |
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This oil thing is a head scratcher for me. Talked to Case IH dealer yesterday about 55 gal drum of Hytran ($1400+) unless you get on their bulk program which requires 100 gallon useage/year but can include all oils. You can get X amount of 15w40and X amount of Hytran so it totals 100 gal. He went on to say they had an "oil meeting" with rep from Shell who makes their oil. That rep stated that their Rotella 15w40 was good for semi trucks but not recommended for field tractors which run under full load at extended hrs. Was not designed for that! Is that so or a rep saying the correct thing for an audience? I just picked up an 8070 PS which I want to change all fluids so was looking for a 55gal drum and have a 8070 PD and a 220 that could stand a change as well. The Traveller brand at Tractor supply is $12 a gallon in 5 gal pails and lists 821 as well as many others on the spec side. Do you pay twice the price for Hytran? Haven't checked AGCO's price.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 4:25pm |
The Traveller brand at Tractor supply is $12 a gallon in 5 gal pails and lists 821 as well as many others on the spec side. Do you pay twice the price for Hytran?
I buy the PREMIUM TRAVELERS that lists 30 different SPECS for many Equipment Manufacturers.... HYTRANS is also listed on the Travelers SPEC... To me, you are paying for the NAME.... If it meets the SPEC, your good to go..
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 4:28pm |
My personal opinion is your Case Rep is full of CHIT... X 2
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 4:42pm |
AS i mentioned in one of the previous posts, may of the "after market" Universal Tractor Fluids list 30 specs on the back of the bucket... Many of them say "RECOMMENDED FOR xxx" ....They do not say "MEETS OR EXCEES MANUFACTURERS SPEC".... so it is the OIL COMPANIES opinion that they oil is "as good as xx" ........ When you buy HYTRANS, you are getting that guarantee.. ( i think).
This is from the CASTROL Page on Universal Tractor Fluid --- again, i might just be "words"... i have no way of knowing.
Edited by steve(ill) - 14 Dec 2022 at 4:48pm
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 4:52pm |
And this is the CENEX site.. Does NOT say "MEETS".... says "we recommend"..
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tthams
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 5:22pm |
Wow, this is why I love this site. I always learn from the best. Thanks so much for sharing your experiences everyone. My local AGCO was recommending Cenex, and they only sold it by the 2.5 gallon jugs at $60 a jug. I will be shopping around after all the comments.
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Bruce(IA)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 5:42pm |
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Go down to FSC. Get the green stuff. We have been using it for years. That’s what Robinson uses
I think Dean Hennigsen is the new salesman
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plummerscarin
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 5:47pm |
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Does CENEX still offer a guarantee on repairs when using theirs?
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jeickman01
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 7:09pm |
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I was a parts and service rep for a major manufacturer at one time and then worked for dealers until retirement. If it were my tractor I'd stick with the latest version of 821. I, of course, can't speak for all manufacturers but I know that the one I worked for pushed the oil suppliers for powertrain/hydraulic oil formulations to address specific problems it had such as wet brake chatter. Engine oil which was thrown into this conversation is an entirely different issue in my mind because diesel engine oil requirements probably don't differ from one manufacturer to another except possibly what is driven by the Feds for on highway designs before it is required off road. I can't dispute someone's success with having used some off brand oil for years or with that brand stating that it meets certain manufacturer's specs. I do remember having been told during a tour in a Shell blending facility that off brand blenders don't take precautions for cost reasons of purging lines when switching between types of oil. But then maybe he was full of Chit.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 7:24pm |
Troy.. i have nothing against CENEX UTF... It "SEEMS" to meet all the specs according to THEIR opinions.. Probably no different than Travelers, or the Green stuff they sell at the Farm Store..... My problem is that i would say it is NOT worth $30. a gallon... you can get the "OTHER" top quality, Premium oils for $50-60. a 5 gal jug..
Remember, 90% of these guys are NOT making the oil.... If it does NOT say Shell or MOBIL on it, then it is made by Warren or a couple other smaller suppliers who make it for everyone.
----------------- WARREN OIL COMPANY, LLC holds the distinction of having the largest number of American Petroleum Institute engine oil licenses and certifications. Warren manufactures and packages lubricants under several proprietary registered trademarks; e.g., Warren, Lubriguard, Autoguard, Itasca, Coastal, LubriGold and Saxon.
Edited by steve(ill) - 14 Dec 2022 at 7:36pm
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 8:34pm |
I was thinking Traveler is a Warren product.
Steve...maybe they were referring to plain 15w40 dino not the full synthetic? Could still be BS.
Edited by SteveM C/IL - 14 Dec 2022 at 8:37pm
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Tbone95
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Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 7:41am |
I guess if all you own is Allis, all you ever use is your own implements, never borrow or rent anything, flush everything out and put in the "latest" 821, then OK. We run a couple different colors of tractors. Have had hydraulic cylinders in use for over 50 years, have borrowed some of a friend's equipment, borrowed his tractor, rent an applicator from time to time. So, what? Should I change all my fluids afterwards? Including any cylinder that might have been hooked up in the meantime?
Our nearby New Holland dealer is also a Kubota dealer. We went to buy some universal oil one time. They said, you want New Holland or Kubota oil? I dunno, what do I want? (and yeah, obviously neither of them is making oil). Well, the Kubota is way cheaper and the same stuff, and we have it in 55 gal drums even cheaper! Bingo. . . So, I've also bought Traveler stuff, 5 gal buckets when I out of the barrel and not nearby the NH dealer. Dad offered, do I want him to get another 55 gal of the Kubota? Might as well, . . .turned out the Travelers in 5 gal was way cheaper than the Kubota in 55 gal now. WAY cheaper. So unless I see a sale on something, I buy the travelers. (and try to fix leaks, cuz holy crap it's all expensive!)
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Jim.ME
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Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 7:47am |
 steve(ill) wrote:
one thing that bothers me about CENEX and a few others is they state "WE RECOMMEND USING OUR OIL IN THESE APPLICATIONS"..... It does NOT say they are APPROVED by the Manufacturer or RECOMMENDED by the manufacture... It may well be a good oil .. but i would prefer to see "APPROVED FOR" instead of "WE" Recommend. |
Semantics in play. It is very doubtful you will find any manufacturer (that markets their own line of oils/fluids) actually approving an aftermarket product for use in place of their OEM fluid. For those aftermarket products claiming they are approved or recommended for use by a manufacturer, the aftermarket supplier is likely basing that claim on their product meeting a manufacturer's minimum spec, not that the equipment manufacturer has actually approved their product. Basically, implied approval. In some manner the aftermarket product stating, "WE RECOMMEND USING OUR OIL IN THESE APPLICATIONS", and listing specs it meets is more truthful than claiming the product is approved for use.
Here is John Deere's statement regarding other fluids from their Hy Gard page. "John Deere does not monitor competitive or "will fit" oils. While claiming to meet John Deere requirements, it is possible that the competitive or "will Fit" oils do not meet even the minimum performance requirements for John Deere Machines, which could result in premature failures. Note: An industry classification for hydraulic/transmission
oil does not exist. Each manufacturer establishes a minimum requirement that
oils should meet for use in their equipment." I expect if you research this, you will find the same type of disclaimer from all manufacturers including AGCO. I would be interested in seeing a listing directly from AGCO, and other equipment manufacturers showing the aftermarket oils/fluids they have approved for use in place of their OEM products.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 8:25am |
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Jim... i tend to agree with you, but i can not prove it.. If they SAY it is RECOMMENDED for the various Equip, i take their word for it, and buy that... Especailly if you can get a 5 gallon bucket for $60. compared to $30. a GALLON .... and as you said, JD and CASE are NOT making their "special" oil..
Edited by steve(ill) - 15 Dec 2022 at 8:26am
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Clay
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Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 1:22pm |
The additives make the most difference between brands. The producers of oils blend specific additives to oil blends to meet the specifications of various brands.
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Northern Hoser
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Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 1:38pm |
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Given there are many choices of "compatible" 821 fluids out there maybe it's easier to come up with what not to use.
Has anyone had a bad experience using off brand universal fluids in a PS transmission? Should it be synthetic or conventional?
I've gotta change mine soon, looking at Klondike brand here in Canada.
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DougG
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Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 7:05pm |
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In my opinion - Travelers from TSC is junk , way to thin when hot - my 6060 sure didnt like it
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 7:25pm |
Travelers Premium UTF is a 10 w 30 oil.... so should have a viscosity of a 30wt when hot...That is normal for the "newer" oils, and thicker than the old 20wt spec...
Dont know what happened to your Doug.... but it should be OK. The multi viscosity gives it a range of below zero and up to 350- 400 degree range on the top end... That rates up there with the best of them.
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randy
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Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 8:13pm |
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OK I got to ask, whats the Green Stuff?
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CA WD WD45 D17 D17 Diesel 7060 8050 8070
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SLee(IA)
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Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 8:24pm |
Thought I would add my 2 cents. I have been using Cenex oil, grease and fuel for over 40 years. I have always believed using high quality oils and fuel is the most economical way to keep equipment running problem free. I use Qwiklift HTB (their "universal hydraulic oil") and filled my bulk tank in July for $17.66 per gallon. Their diesel engine oil is Superlube TMS 15-40 and my cost was $18.38 per gallon. I copied and pasted the following from the fact sheet on their website.
"Energy
Petroleum, refining and pipelines
• Owns refineries at Laurel, Montana, and
McPherson, Kansas, with a combined
175,000-barrels-per-day processing capacity.
• Accesses crude oil for our refineries and move
product to the marketplace through more than
2,000 miles of pipeline.
• Provides a dependable supply through
400 million gallons of storage at CHS refineries
and 23 CHS-owned product terminals."
They do have a warranty program on new equipment using their oil. I did sign up for it on two tractors I bought new but of course, I had no claims. Steve
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 9:24pm |
DougG wrote:
In my opinion - Travelers from TSC is junk , way to thin when hot - my 6060 sure didnt like it |
Please explain how you determined it too thin when hot and what it did to you 6080
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Bruce(IA)
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Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 11:51am |
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Cenex HTB is green colored
That makes it easy to tell if it’s motor oil or hydraulic oil when it leaks
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DougG
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Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 3:20pm |
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Was loading manure with it, had just changed the hyd system and put this Travlers in ; after about an hour the hydraulics got slower , pump started to get real hot ; finally quit , changed the oil back to Pure-Flo 334 and seemed to work better , this was about 8 years ago
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Pat the Plumber CIL
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Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 9:30pm |
Seen this stuff at local Farm and Home store today . 49.99 for 5 gallons. The "modern" stuff that is for tractors manufactured after 1989 is 39.99 for 5 gallons 
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You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails
1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.
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