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Can someone date my tractor:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 5:54am
Thanks Merv;

Hope in a couple of weeks just after the new year to bring the tractor home. New business insurance goes into effect then and I'll be able to use my truck and trailer again. Far too expensive to license and insure a semi tractor as an "extra" vehicle and have it set around.

Tony, (former owner) doesn't mind it staying right there as long as needed not being in his way at all. It really was a surprise how easily the engine started, and then smoothed out given the temperature. No blue smoke at all. The first start mentioned in the video lasted only long enough to raise the blade six inches to pull the destroyed tarp out from underneath; so the engine start you see was still cold.

Granddaughter let the cat out of the bag by telling me I'm getting a "GoPro" camera for Christmas so hope to post up some videos from the operator seat sometime.

More later.

Thanks,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:21pm
Hog tied "Alli-Kat":


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:24pm




Edited by Codger - 19 Dec 2021 at 9:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 9:04pm
Looking on ebay tonight I seen this brochure and it clearly shows a tractor which looks just like mine branded Allis-Chalmers. I was thinking the single upper track carrier roller was implemented after the 1974 Fiat-Allis name changeover, but that clearly is not the case with this brochure. I also see on the side the HD 11 Series B script. I very much was under the impression these more "square nosed" crawlers were never available under the Allis-Chalmers branding but this brochure seems to disprove that?

So, would it be considered "sacrilegious" to alter the appearance of my tractor and rebrand it using the correct font and colors as before the  Allis-Chalmers/Fiat merger? I plan to blast and repaint the tractor regardless. 




Edited by Codger - 03 Jan 2022 at 9:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HD6 Merv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 11:05am
The HD11 Series B came out in 1971 as a 100% AC product.
It only got Fiats name planted on it after the 1974 merger and after s/n 18798; they start at 16000.
The first 11-B definetly had 2 upper rollers but were changed soon after to one, by simply moving the forward roller pedestal back to the rear pedestal bolt holes
If she was mine, it would have AC logos, my 10 cents worth Tongue
tits tyres and tracks

they all cost you money
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 11:24am
Originally posted by HD6 Merv HD6 Merv wrote:

The HD11 Series B came out in 1971 as a 100% AC product.
It only got Fiats name planted on it after the 1974 merger and after s/n 18798; they start at 16000.
The first 11-B definetly had 2 upper rollers but were changed soon after to one, by simply moving the forward roller pedestal back to the rear pedestal bolt holes
If she was mine, it would have AC logos, my 10 cents worth Tongue


Thanks Merv, you and I share the same sentiments. I'm decided to "rebrand" in AC logos but will retain the s/n tag on the bulkhead. Will probably paint over the top of the riveted tag however.

My buddies in Springfield did tell me the tractor is 100% AC engineering, but I didn't think to ask anything about the sheet metal being squared up, or logos.

Thanks kindly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 2:03am
Talked to the young lady whom has done my sign lettering for years and she actually has the correct AC corporate logo in her database in three different sizes. We will scale this to fit and match the font once the tractor is at the shop. She will need to order a cut sheet of the Persian Orange color rather than use an orange color on hand. I don't mind the expense to have it correct.

I should mention I am missing the panel that the operator handle protrudes through for blade operation. Neither parts chassis has the needed panel as the one tractor that has the tilt blade also had a ripper and the whole valve block is gone as is the ripper. The other chassis was an angle blade and it's panel is MIA also. The parts manual shows this panel, but it appears to be only for a straight fore and aft moving operator handle. I don't know if the panel just has an large opening in the center, or is closed with a rubber boot, (nothing like listed) but I can't believe it's just open like that exposing all the linkage from the build. I think I'd be better with a photo of what it actually looks like. Attached is the only photo I have of the operator station and it is very low resolution but you can see the opening this panel would cover:


Found one of the open hole:



From the parts manual. Item #12 which I don't think looks correct:



This seems to be the only access panel missing from the tractor.

The tarp seems to be holding up very well as the tractor is dry under where it is covered. We were lambasted with high winds, rain/sleet, and snow on Saturday, and everything is still intact.

Thanks guys,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve allis dozer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 4:20am
The pic shows part no 11 where the blade control lever is part no 12 is the next panel above the blade lever which you have both 11 and 12 in your photo , there was no rubber boot just the big square opening that you have is correct

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 8:20am
Originally posted by Steve allis dozer Steve allis dozer wrote:

The pic shows part no 11 where the blade control lever is part no 12 is the next panel above the blade lever which you have both 11 and 12 in your photo , there was no rubber boot just the big square opening that you have is correct



Thank you  Steve. I didn't see any mounting holes or threads that were empty at all; and this was confusing. I was thinking the complete top panel differed with my tractor from the book. Panel #11 in the photo appears to be a vertical orientation where panel #12 is where it transitioned to the horizontal plane which I do have in place.

Although it would make no difference I can easily close this hole up with a rubber gearshift selector boot. I'm surprised to learn this would have been proper from the build without some type of enclosure.

Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 12:11pm
I support the thought of going with personal choice of colours. I just wonder as you want original Persian orange as part of your decals as the Persian orange was over and done before the '70's. Most decals in the 70's seemed to be black and white, at least on all the AC equipment I have owned made in the 70's. The AC industrial logo had a yellow 'C' although I have seen the odd machine with the AC logo using an orange 'C' using the newer orange agricultural colour, perhaps if the machine had been repainted. Only the old AC logo, on the tilted square, used the Persian orange. Again, I emphasize you should go with personal preferences not what other people say. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 3:24pm
Thanks Eric, really appreciate you speaking up as it's got me to thinking. I haul things for a former Allis-Chalmers dealer whom started in 1949 and are still around through the various changes over the years. I asked them and now realize there are two shades of orange AC used over the years. One is "corporate" orange, the other "Persian", orange. Myself never really being up close and personal with AC equipment did not realize this and thought there was only the "Persian" orange color. However, looking in the upstairs storeroom, it is plain to see there were two different shades used.

This is an NOS part of some kind from the 1970's and the box hasn't seen sunlight in over 40 years:



This is a model tractor from the 1980's which is new and is in the same dark storeroom:


This is a brand new owner's manual:


The place is loaded with things like this the collectors would like to have but nothing is for sale.

It's easy to see the difference in the colors on the boxes especially with that tractor which is not faded. Looking online I see where the AC logo I'm chasing is marketed in both aforementioned colors and I'll probably go with the brighter of the two which is the Persian orange. This just because it will stand out better on the side of the tractor. On another note I called one of my friends in Springfield, IL and he tells me he actually has one of the logos that would have been installed onto the tractor and I'm welcome to borrow it for reproduction if needed. I understand he would have been one installing these at one time. Doesn't remember if he has the Allis-Chalmers script or not, but going to look. It would be so much easier and no guesswork if originals can be rounded up to work with.

Here is a snip from the above posted brochure and to my eye, it looks to be the "corporate" orange color for the "C" of the logo? Do you see it that way also?


It is this logo I'm interested in emulating.

I see a lot of folks with restored antique Allis-Chalmers equipment, but it's all agriculture related. Having this tractor I may start delving into these construction type shows also.

Thanks for the assist as it helps get the motivation going.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 10:45am
Stopped by buddies place on my way to Decatur and physically looked at the decal. It is "corporate orange" in the "C" of the logo so that is what I'll go with. 

Thanks for the help. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 10:53am
There are three different "orange" paints. The original was Persian Orange #1 from the 1930's up until late 1960 or early 1961. Then in 61 it became Persian Orange #2 with cream/off white wheels and grille screens on the farm equipment side of thing. Finally, in late 1977 the orange was change again to "Corporate" orange and the wheels became a whiter shade of white.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 11:18am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

There are three different "orange" paints. The original was Persian Orange #1 from the 1930's up until late 1960 or early 1961. Then in 61 it became Persian Orange #2 with cream/off white wheels and grille screens on the farm equipment side of thing. Finally, in late 1977 the orange was change again to "Corporate" orange and the wheels became a whiter shade of white.

Thanks kindly. I'm learning for sure. When I was a kid and traveling between St. Louis, Mo, and Springfield, Il I well remember both orange and yellow tractors on the plant grounds. Far too young then and not really from a farming background, never took interest. Never realized there were two orange colors till attempting to replicate this logo. 

Most of the family farm equipment I was around was either J.I. Case, Oliver, or Minneapolis-Moline with John Deere having a very limited presence. The balers were either AC, Oliver, or Heston from memory.  Me, being more of a 'repairer" type individual was always on call for fixing something broken during use, not actually using the equipment. Back in those days farmers of the area worked together instead of being "all inclusive". I mean one neighbor had a picker, or combine, and another had plows and harvest equipment and they "shared" the expense of farming around. Of course all had tractors as never enough of those to around. 

I deliver a lot of new Simplicity lawn equipment and it's color is still "Persian" orange. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 2:10pm
is a 10000 series engine intake manifold a direct replacement for an 11000 engine?

Thanks,

Let me update this a bit with reasoning:

The intake on my 11000 does not have the wording "Allis-Chalmers" cast into it. It is smooth and clean. I know where there is an older manifold that does have the name and I'll swap them if possible. I don't know if the air entrance from the air cleaner, or turbocharger is the same between the two. The older manifold is from a blown 10000 engine originally in an HD-11 series tractor. I don't want to ship the manifold here to ship it back if it doesn't fit my application.

I could decal, or stencil the letters, but would rather have the raised cast letters so it looks correct. May be important to me only but we're not going to change that.

Thanks,




Edited by Codger - 06 Jan 2022 at 10:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 7:32am
Decals and materials are ordered from the sign lady. No problem sourcing the "corporate" orange color.

We were sorting through a manual of corporate logos and everything I need was there meaning the AC logo, and all fonts for lettering in the proper ratio and proportion. Even the HD-11 Series B font was there. Replication won't be so difficult after all.

Besides the tag on the bulkhead of the operators compartment, is the serial number of the tractor stamped, or affixed elsewhere? I was able to secure an NOS serial number tag with the silkscreened Allis-Chalmers logo. This to replace the current Fiat-Allis tag. I don't mind restamping the serial number onto the new tag(s).

I talked with the gent whom has the parts chassis. It appears the one chassis that was a p/s type and had the ripper on the back was virtually a duplicate of mine as built with exception of the angle blade and frame. The ripper was added later and when the engine let go the tractor was used as a donor. The engine remains, but also being Fiat-Allis, it doesn't have the intake manifold I'm wanting. The undercarriage is well worn on this tractor but still has many good parts.

So far being unable to locate the proper manifold, I may go with a temporary decal of some sort, but the hunt is on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HD6 Merv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 12:10pm
serial number is stamped on upper RHS of rear case  and also just around the corner vertically on  right side of rear case.  Powershift starts with 25L.
Should match the tag on the firewall.
tits tyres and tracks

they all cost you money
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 1:45pm
Thanks again Merv. I actually have a few of the aluminum tags to stamp but I'll have to look to ascertain if one will work for the vertical stamping. I don't want to unwrap the tractor in the weather we are having as no help available. Nobody but me will care regardless. 

I've got everything coming together nicely. When the weather breaks there is a young lad I have do pressure washing on my wash pad and he does a quite thorough job. After getting the tractor up on cribbing, easily removable panels will come off, the machine washed removing any dirt and grease, masked, grit blasted to bare steel followed by an acid etch/wash and finish painting. While this may sound like a lot, it's what we did routinely before I closed the shop. 

While my scenarios may sound extreme, there is a motivation there to be revealed at a later date. 

Thanks kindly,


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lazyts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 2:22pm
The very last 11000 Mk2 Engines used in the 11-B also had the Allis Chalmers lettering on the intake manifold.  These had a bracket cast at the front for the water and fuel filters, and another at the back to mount the under hood muffler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2022 at 9:47pm
That 10000 series engine manifold is incorrect for my application. One of my uncles ran over to the shop where this part is and the placement of the air inlet is more to the rear than mine which is seemingly centered. The hunt continues.

I've never seen any AC dozer of this vintage with a muffler contained under the hood myself. If I have, certainly have never paid any mind.

I talked to the gent who has that brochure I grabbed the picture of earlier today. I'm going to acquire it just to have more than anything. I did a "zoom" of the overhead view in this brochure and it's clear to see that "open hole" exposing the blade operation linkages is normal as earlier relayed. The panels shown in the parts manual are actually behind the control rod and cover the valve block(s) and are clear to be seen. The way it was shown in the diagrams left it unclear to me. Though blurry, all can be seen here with circular identifier "18" partially obscuring the opening:


Running by tomorrow to grab an armrest from the operator compartment, and starting batteries from the tractor to ensure they are "topped up" for later in the week hopefully. I'm wanting to get a material sample from the upholstery for duplication so going to start that process this next week. Granddaughter is getting anxious to work with the seating for me. I think you guys will like her work. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2022 at 12:47am
I seen this video on youtube and it's an old HD-11 with a non turbocharged engine. At 1:52 into the video is a nice clear shot of the engine and it looks as if the air intake port is centered on this manifold to me? Maybe the one I'd mentioned earlier wasn't from an original HD-11 tractor?





Edited by Codger - 10 Jan 2022 at 6:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2022 at 3:30pm
I have located a manifold on a 1972 build HD-11 series B running, and operating tractor. Going to cost me $150.00 and my manifold to cover labor to swap them, but the cost has value to me.

It's coming together nicely. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 6:46am
Scanning through the parts manual to ascertain what will be needed to swap intake manifolds and I see this later edition manifold w/cast bosses of which has been referenced in the past:


Low and behold, the underhood muffler too:


I've located a couple of dealers with most any soft parts I'd need for the engine but nothing near me. I'm finding much is discontinued in the aftermarket but I'm real accustomed to that with my old Mack trucks, Continental, and Hercules Engines also.

Lined up another job for this tractor on Friday rebuilding a retaining wall that is collapsing, or pushing out. From the explanation it doesn't appear the wall had adequate drainage and was not braced appropriately from the backside prior to backfilling.


Edited by Codger - 16 Jan 2022 at 6:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 10:01pm
Arrived in the mail today. Really nice brochure without any dealership markings:





I think I now have enough information to work with as the brochure has great detail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2022 at 9:19am
Looking over the brochure, looking through the manuals, looking over this and that, along with good conversation, I've received a call from a guy who used to run my dozer for the original owner and happens to remember it quite "fondly" I'll say. He worked for the original purchaser and was for the most part the sole operator of this machine during it's tenure through trade in at the local Caterpillar dealer.

I'm told it was the last Allis unit in inventory and to the best of his knowledge in 1995 the tractor had just over 4500 hours on the meter and the u/c just about worn through after a P&B turn. The engine had never broken down that he remembered and really the only mechanical problems experienced were a radiator from the fan blade carrier bearings failing and taking the core out, and an alternator went bad. A new radiator complete was installed rather than a recore, along with a new reversible cooling fan, along with the original alternator rebuilt by a favored local rebuilder. The "Huber" fan currently mounted matches the parts manual and I assume is a dealer supplied part. The turbocharger was rebuilt also as a suspect part which turned out to be a missed air filter at a service interval. We both got a laugh out of that one.

I'm told this tractor was kept far in excess of normal usage interval because he "liked it" and not being troublesome, was obliged. This I find as very good news. when I asked about it's duties he stated it was mostly on the road construction side so the dozer did a lot of scraper pushing and cleanup which are long and straight jobs without a lot backing up. This would seem to equate to why the undercarriage would go so long, and everything remain so tight on the machine. Also some of the "ribbing" to the moldboard.

I explained my desire to rebrand back to Allis-Chalmers to which he was pleased. This tractor was a replacement for a prior AC HD-11 and was purchased as one of the last "true" AC tractors they'd be able to get with Fiat now in the mix. They knew the 11B was a rebadged HD-11 Series B but he did not like the cab so purchased without. The tractor was found to be getting difficult to source parts for, (undercarriage) and at the end of 1995, it was traded in on a new Caterpillar D5 who installed new chains complete, sprocket segments, a couple of rollers, (don't know which) and front idler bearings. The original selling dealer purchased the tractor back with this work sublet to the Caterpillar dealer. It was then sold to the gent I purchased it from. The undercarriage has a little under 1600 hours on it with his tenure and I estimate with my track gauge for the purpose about 85% remaining on most parts. Grouser bars are at about 75% service remaining which is probably a testament to being used on dirt mostly. Given the tractor was probably left on jobsites, (I didn't think to ask) is probably reason it has the "vandal" protection package installed with all the padlocks.

All that being said, I have ran across something maybe you can help with. In one of the manuals I noticed this logo on the front of a tractor:

You can clearly see "Series B" under the AC corporate logo:


In this photo of which I am emulating with my rebrand, there is no such additional script:



Yet when I look on the face of the brochure the above image was plagiarized from, some tractors show this additional script, some do not:


I'm certainly no purest and has been suggested I'll go my own way, but asking what do you guys think? Wink








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 6:17am
In the early morning hours and being bored, I scan through my books and I'm not seeing any magnets, or magnetic drain plugs listed in the power shift transmission part section. I do see magnetic drain plugs in the finals compartments, and the main case, but again nothing in the transmission; not even the drain plug.

Is there nothing in there to catch burnishings and the filters relied upon solely for this purpose? I've been into a lot of transmissions and drive axles over the years and have never not seen magnets placed someplace near the wear parts.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 5:46pm
A lot of the old timers have a lot of faith in magnets, but in modern machines, they aren't gonna do a whole lot.  Sure they may catch the off tooth chip, but then you still have a gear with a damaged tooth...  Most they do is to let you know, if you find something stuck to them.  I still put an rare earth magnet on filters, you can sometimes see where it was attached, on the inside of the filter skin, if you cut open the filter with a can opener...Wink
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