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Can someone date my tractor:

Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=184886
Printed Date: 28 May 2022 at 3:22pm
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Topic: Can someone date my tractor:
Posted By: Codger
Subject: Can someone date my tractor:
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2021 at 9:24pm
I purchased my Fiat-Allis 11B tractor with serial number 25L 1910 8 and would like to know when it was actually manufactured if able. I've been told 1975 but there have been inconsistencies with that serial number as to year of build.

Thanks in advance.



Replies:
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2021 at 4:38am
I'm not that into tractors that I' date it...Wink  But, Norm's book states that the last 11B of 1974 was #18798, so your guess of 1975 is probably right.

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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2021 at 6:00am
Thanks Dave. 1974 was the other year it was assumed to be but by that book you cite, it has to be into the 1975 year if serial numbers are sequential to build.

At the present we are carrying on an estranged relationship, but hope to soon become very close. She is kind of cold and uncompromising, but I like it that way.

Thanks again,


Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2021 at 10:01am
Back in the 80's I was looking at a Fiat Allis track loader with Srl # X4 - Salesman was all positive I should buy it .
 Talked to one of the parts guys - said it was a total nightmare to get parts for as was a prototype experimental machine . Said finding even filters for it required calling main distributor for parts as well as any other parts needed as separate pages in parts book for each X machine .
 Seen the machine again about 2 months later - contractor I bought a HD5B from had bought it . Was setting waiting for some parts from Italy to get it fixed . 

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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2021 at 12:09pm
i have heard they can be tough to get parts for but this one doesn't really need anything at the present. It may not in my tenure as it will only get limited and easy use.



I have access to two parts chassis if needed in the future as they are not going anyplace, but neither is operational. 


Posted By: HD6 Merv
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2021 at 1:25am
18798 was last Allis Chalmers HD11-B made.
But they continued as Fiat Allis 11-B  until 1977.
Highest serial ive seen is 19612


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tits tyres and tracks

they all cost you money


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2021 at 8:09am
I remember well into the 1983 year as drove by the plant twice daily the 11B, 16B, and 21B series as they were all staged in a single area. Larger tractors were in another area and not as easy to see from the perimeter. I also remember the units built for Iran setting off to themselves for years with the embargo going at the time. They became rust buckets over the years as time went on.


Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2021 at 9:03pm
For some reason the serial number record in Swinford's book for 11-B was incomplete.  Seems that Roosa Master pump was fitted at S/n 18799, January 1975.  Mark 2 engine was fitted at 19335, i'm guessing around a year later.  11-B discontinued early 1977, so likely ended around 19600 range.  Highest I've seen here is 19590- last ones had a muffler under the hood.  Fiat take-over was January 1974.  


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2021 at 5:09pm
Got me wondering if the ones I seen were unsold examples or something. I well remember them along with the European designed tractors which were more mainstream these days. They were more of a brownish gray, or orange color than the construction yellow of the older models. Also remember the black lettering and it changing to white although didn't know why till I asked a friends dad that worked there.

I have a lunch date with a couple of friends and families that worked the Springfield, IL plant in the 1970's and 80's and one was there till it closed. He built final drives till the parts ran out and was laid off. The other retired at plant closing. I ran with both party's boys when much younger, and we've kept in touch through the years.  


Posted By: HD6 Merv
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2021 at 6:40pm
Be interesting to know if your friends who worked at the springfield plant had any records of the last 11-B and 16-B crawlers made ?
Cheers Merv


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tits tyres and tracks

they all cost you money


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2021 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by HD6 Merv HD6 Merv wrote:

Be interesting to know if your friends who worked at the springfield plant had any records of the last 11-B and 16-B crawlers made ?
Cheers Merv


I would doubt there would be any records as both were production type employees and not administrative in nature. When we get together I'll ask some questions about the tractors and builds. There may be some information there, and I'll try to find out.

I thought I read someplace online the 11B series was produced up into the early 1980's; but, I've slept since then so forgotten where I read it.




Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2021 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by Lazyts Lazyts wrote:

For some reason the serial number record in Swinford's book for 11-B was incomplete.  Seems that Roosa Master pump was fitted at S/n 18799, January 1975.  Mark 2 engine was fitted at 19335, i'm guessing around a year later.  11-B discontinued early 1977, so likely ended around 19600 range.  Highest I've seen here is 19590- last ones had a muffler under the hood.  Fiat take-over was January 1974.  


Mine has the Roosa-Master "DC" injection pump. I don't really know much about Allis engines and assume it's the Mark 2 series you mention. Originally, and as built did not have a muffler; only a vertical straight pipe for exhaust.

Only thing I really know is it sure starts and runs well.




Posted By: JohnColo
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2021 at 8:42pm
What do you suppose happened to the machines sold to Iran and never shipped?


Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2021 at 8:46pm
Mark 2 engines are labelled 11000MKll on the serial number plate (beside starter on LH side).  The later MK2 and 685 blocks also have a thicker casting behind the oil filters on the RH side, with a plug on the rear for installation of a threaded block heater.  
16B continued to be produced after the 11B was discontinued.  I've heard from two different sources that the last 16Bs were "blown out" with no warranty around 1981-82, when the Springfield plant was closing.


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2021 at 11:10pm
Thanks. Those dates sound about right. The economy was very bad in that time frame and I took a job hauling The State Journal-Register newspapers to local, rural, and surrounding towns for distribution. I did this most of 1981, and a good portion of 1982 traveling on the bordering streets of S. 11th street, Stevenson Drive, and S. Sixth street daily.  It was during this time I passed the plant on the way to, and from work. In the mid 1970's there was equipment all over the plant grounds; by the early 1980's, not so much and old inventory was sitting. That is why I remember these tractors setting idle for so long.

It was still that way at the end of 1984 when I left the area to go into the military. Once I discharged four years later, the plant was gone altogether.

I don't know what happened to the Iranian dozers. The plastic preservative wrap long rotted off of them and they sat exposed for a long time. I do think they were still there when I left the area so the ultimate disposition, I don't know, but maybe I can find out.


Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2021 at 10:08am
That's very interesting- thanks for sharing that story!  I'd never heard about the equipment sitting because of the embargo.  It seems that alot of the Allis equipment in the late '70s was shipped abroad, as Fiat and their subsidiaries seemed to be involved in many major construction projects around the globe.  The youtube video "Fiat Allis al lavoro" shows Fiat Allis equipment building a seaport at Bandar Abbas, Iran- date would be 1976 or 1977 I think.  Clearly shows 21C tractor so must be after 1975 anyway.  I've watched that video many times- really good footage of the Springfield plant, 41Bs and 460C scraper.


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2021 at 3:37pm
I watched that video and can only positively identify the Springfield, IL plant exterior from a very small segment starting at 37 seconds to about 41 seconds into the presentation. Many of the landmarks are present although the segment is far from what it was in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Many of the assembly and machining segments are definitely Springfield but you wouldn't know if not having been there. The video sure was interesting, but jumps around a lot. And yes, F-A was all over the globe in those days as the North American markets were collapsing.

I found some interesting information on the Springfield plant but cannot relocate it. I'll keep looking and post up some links.

Went and visited my 11B this afternoon as the poor girl has been evicted from her indoor storage. She was wrapped in a blue tarp and we had some very strong winds earlier in the week which destroyed that. I did some measuring for a replacement and brought both 4D batteries home to get them on a maintainer so they don't set dormant any longer.


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2021 at 7:20am
I ordered up a couple of much heavier duty plastic tarps yesterday evening and will pick them up today to get the machine recovered. Only the operator station is open to weather right now. The former owner used a 20'X30' tarp and it covered most of the tractor very well so I ordered the same. Also ordered a 25'X40' but won't see it till later. I do have several "corner guards" such as used in semi trailer work to protect from sharp edges. I think the ROPS edges are actually what done the original tarp in. I also have a couple dozen new rubber straps for binding the covering tarp.

I'll have the machine uncovered and will shoot a few photos later in the day. It will once again be kept inside at my shop so don't want to spend a fortune on a temporary covering. I have ordered a couple of steer tires for my semi tractor and I'll bring the dozer home shortly after they are installed.


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2021 at 7:16am
Had lunch with the guys on Saturday. Not really a lot of information available citing aforementioned production employees. However, one buddy formerly assembled components and he tells me very near the end they were robbing parts from unsold, and unfinished tractors to complete the builds of ordered units. The reason being parts supplies were exhausted. There were also instances at the end where incomplete tractors were sent/shipped to purchasers for final, and minor assembly which was assumed to be servicing dealers, or broken into parts supplies?

No word on the Iranian dozers which were mostly "FD series" models. They were still there when the plant closed and all production employees laid off.

One of the guys told me either he, or one other gent would have built up the final drives in my tractor. I don't really know if there would be a way to ascertain this kind of depth but it was interesting for sure. Cheap entertainment as they say. Regardless there weren't too many that built finals and in the timeframe my dozer was built, he was in that work center.

On a sad note I also learned one of the boys I ran with passed with cancer a few years back and I had no idea.

All in all a nice time and good to see folks again.


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 8:31am
Fully load tested the group 4D batteries by placing a load onto them till they dropped to 22VDC, (series wired) and then recharged to 1.255 specific gravity, (averaged) between all cells. One battery was manufactured in May, 2017, and the other June, 2021 and the former tests to about 83% capacity of the latter using a 25A load and measuring RC. I am going to place another 25A load upon them again and reapply another equalizing charge to final evaluate the performance. Ultimately, I'll most likely install new batteries when the tractor goes into service and use the existing in another tractor using the same size.

Very high winds of late have once again destroyed my tarping scenario so this time have purchased a polypropylene tarp which is much stronger (and $$$) than the polyethylene types used originally.

It was a genuine SOB tarping the last time in light winds so taking a helper today and going to "hog tie" the tractor good.


Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 11:22am
I have never found a tarp of any type that can stand up to the wind.  Tarps are not impervious to water either.  Eventually water will seep through.  For best results, find a place to park it inside.

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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14 '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '85 6080


Posted By: Eric B
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 1:12pm
My serial# book has your machine as a 1975. They are listed up to 1977 but only with the starting number but not the last.

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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 1:55pm
Thanks guys. I'll attempt to post up a few photos I took about an hour ago:




Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 1:56pm


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 1:57pm


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 1:58pm


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 2:02pm
27F outside and the tractor hasn't been started in about a month. It cranked about 30 seconds and then started firing and about four to five seconds after letting the starter button loose, it was running smoothly on all six cylinders.

Here she is all packaged and awaiting pickup from the postal service, (LOL):




Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 3:24pm
Oh man, me neither on tarps holding up to the wind. This is just a temporary measure as the tractor hasn't seen any outdoor storage in over 20 years I know of. This latest tarp is polypropylene and 11mil thick. From appearance and feel it is very heavy. I ran cardboard edge protectors around the perimeter of the ROPS and several layers Gorilla taped any sharp edges the tarp will bear against. The tarp is bungee strapped to the tracks or underpinnings. Best part is, (and the reason I purchased this one) is Menard's warrants the tarp for five years against tearing. They are quite liberal in their coverage and easy to work with so this should work well until I get the tractor inside my shop building for it's inside storage.

This is the one I used and am initially quite pleased with it:

https://www.menards.com/main/tools/automotive/towing-cargo-management/tarps-accessories/yardworks-reg-xpo-green-industrial-duty-tarp/xpo2030/p-1570516240286.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.menards.com/main/tools/automotive/towing-cargo-management/tarps-accessories/yardworks-reg-xpo-green-industrial-duty-tarp/xpo2030/p-1570516240286.htm


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 7:33pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpFVpy-1c8A" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpFVpy-1c8A


Posted By: HD6 Merv
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 11:06pm
very nice looking and sounding  11-B. Cheers for sharing CodgerClap

-------------
tits tyres and tracks

they all cost you money


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 5:54am
Thanks Merv;

Hope in a couple of weeks just after the new year to bring the tractor home. New business insurance goes into effect then and I'll be able to use my truck and trailer again. Far too expensive to license and insure a semi tractor as an "extra" vehicle and have it set around.

Tony, (former owner) doesn't mind it staying right there as long as needed not being in his way at all. It really was a surprise how easily the engine started, and then smoothed out given the temperature. No blue smoke at all. The first start mentioned in the video lasted only long enough to raise the blade six inches to pull the destroyed tarp out from underneath; so the engine start you see was still cold.

Granddaughter let the cat out of the bag by telling me I'm getting a "GoPro" camera for Christmas so hope to post up some videos from the operator seat sometime.

More later.

Thanks,



Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:21pm
Hog tied "Alli-Kat":




Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:21pm


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:22pm


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:23pm


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:24pm




Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 9:04pm
Looking on ebay tonight I seen this brochure and it clearly shows a tractor which looks just like mine branded Allis-Chalmers. I was thinking the single upper track carrier roller was implemented after the 1974 Fiat-Allis name changeover, but that clearly is not the case with this brochure. I also see on the side the HD 11 Series B script. I very much was under the impression these more "square nosed" crawlers were never available under the Allis-Chalmers branding but this brochure seems to disprove that?

So, would it be considered "sacrilegious" to alter the appearance of my tractor and rebrand it using the correct font and colors as before the  Allis-Chalmers/Fiat merger? I plan to blast and repaint the tractor regardless. 




Posted By: HD6 Merv
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 11:05am
The HD11 Series B came out in 1971 as a 100% AC product.
It only got Fiats name planted on it after the 1974 merger and after s/n 18798; they start at 16000.
The first 11-B definetly had 2 upper rollers but were changed soon after to one, by simply moving the forward roller pedestal back to the rear pedestal bolt holes
If she was mine, it would have AC logos, my 10 cents worth Tongue


-------------
tits tyres and tracks

they all cost you money


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 11:24am
Originally posted by HD6 Merv HD6 Merv wrote:

The HD11 Series B came out in 1971 as a 100% AC product.
It only got Fiats name planted on it after the 1974 merger and after s/n 18798; they start at 16000.
The first 11-B definetly had 2 upper rollers but were changed soon after to one, by simply moving the forward roller pedestal back to the rear pedestal bolt holes
If she was mine, it would have AC logos, my 10 cents worth Tongue


Thanks Merv, you and I share the same sentiments. I'm decided to "rebrand" in AC logos but will retain the s/n tag on the bulkhead. Will probably paint over the top of the riveted tag however.

My buddies in Springfield did tell me the tractor is 100% AC engineering, but I didn't think to ask anything about the sheet metal being squared up, or logos.

Thanks kindly


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 2:03am
Talked to the young lady whom has done my sign lettering for years and she actually has the correct AC corporate logo in her database in three different sizes. We will scale this to fit and match the font once the tractor is at the shop. She will need to order a cut sheet of the Persian Orange color rather than use an orange color on hand. I don't mind the expense to have it correct.

I should mention I am missing the panel that the operator handle protrudes through for blade operation. Neither parts chassis has the needed panel as the one tractor that has the tilt blade also had a ripper and the whole valve block is gone as is the ripper. The other chassis was an angle blade and it's panel is MIA also. The parts manual shows this panel, but it appears to be only for a straight fore and aft moving operator handle. I don't know if the panel just has an large opening in the center, or is closed with a rubber boot, (nothing like listed) but I can't believe it's just open like that exposing all the linkage from the build. I think I'd be better with a photo of what it actually looks like. Attached is the only photo I have of the operator station and it is very low resolution but you can see the opening this panel would cover:


Found one of the open hole:



From the parts manual. Item #12 which I don't think looks correct:



This seems to be the only access panel missing from the tractor.

The tarp seems to be holding up very well as the tractor is dry under where it is covered. We were lambasted with high winds, rain/sleet, and snow on Saturday, and everything is still intact.

Thanks guys,


Posted By: Steve allis dozer
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 4:20am
The pic shows part no 11 where the blade control lever is part no 12 is the next panel above the blade lever which you have both 11 and 12 in your photo , there was no rubber boot just the big square opening that you have is correct



Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 8:20am
Originally posted by Steve allis dozer Steve allis dozer wrote:

The pic shows part no 11 where the blade control lever is part no 12 is the next panel above the blade lever which you have both 11 and 12 in your photo , there was no rubber boot just the big square opening that you have is correct



Thank you  Steve. I didn't see any mounting holes or threads that were empty at all; and this was confusing. I was thinking the complete top panel differed with my tractor from the book. Panel #11 in the photo appears to be a vertical orientation where panel #12 is where it transitioned to the horizontal plane which I do have in place.

Although it would make no difference I can easily close this hole up with a rubber gearshift selector boot. I'm surprised to learn this would have been proper from the build without some type of enclosure.

Thanks again.


Posted By: Eric B
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 12:11pm
I support the thought of going with personal choice of colours. I just wonder as you want original Persian orange as part of your decals as the Persian orange was over and done before the '70's. Most decals in the 70's seemed to be black and white, at least on all the AC equipment I have owned made in the 70's. The AC industrial logo had a yellow 'C' although I have seen the odd machine with the AC logo using an orange 'C' using the newer orange agricultural colour, perhaps if the machine had been repainted. Only the old AC logo, on the tilted square, used the Persian orange. Again, I emphasize you should go with personal preferences not what other people say. 

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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 3:24pm
Thanks Eric, really appreciate you speaking up as it's got me to thinking. I haul things for a former Allis-Chalmers dealer whom started in 1949 and are still around through the various changes over the years. I asked them and now realize there are two shades of orange AC used over the years. One is "corporate" orange, the other "Persian", orange. Myself never really being up close and personal with AC equipment did not realize this and thought there was only the "Persian" orange color. However, looking in the upstairs storeroom, it is plain to see there were two different shades used.

This is an NOS part of some kind from the 1970's and the box hasn't seen sunlight in over 40 years:



This is a model tractor from the 1980's which is new and is in the same dark storeroom:


This is a brand new owner's manual:


The place is loaded with things like this the collectors would like to have but nothing is for sale.

It's easy to see the difference in the colors on the boxes especially with that tractor which is not faded. Looking online I see where the AC logo I'm chasing is marketed in both aforementioned colors and I'll probably go with the brighter of the two which is the Persian orange. This just because it will stand out better on the side of the tractor. On another note I called one of my friends in Springfield, IL and he tells me he actually has one of the logos that would have been installed onto the tractor and I'm welcome to borrow it for reproduction if needed. I understand he would have been one installing these at one time. Doesn't remember if he has the Allis-Chalmers script or not, but going to look. It would be so much easier and no guesswork if originals can be rounded up to work with.

Here is a snip from the above posted brochure and to my eye, it looks to be the "corporate" orange color for the "C" of the logo? Do you see it that way also?


It is this logo I'm interested in emulating.

I see a lot of folks with restored antique Allis-Chalmers equipment, but it's all agriculture related. Having this tractor I may start delving into these construction type shows also.

Thanks for the assist as it helps get the motivation going.


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 10:45am
Stopped by buddies place on my way to Decatur and physically looked at the decal. It is "corporate orange" in the "C" of the logo so that is what I'll go with. 

Thanks for the help. 


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 10:53am
There are three different "orange" paints. The original was Persian Orange #1 from the 1930's up until late 1960 or early 1961. Then in 61 it became Persian Orange #2 with cream/off white wheels and grille screens on the farm equipment side of thing. Finally, in late 1977 the orange was change again to "Corporate" orange and the wheels became a whiter shade of white.


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 11:18am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

There are three different "orange" paints. The original was Persian Orange #1 from the 1930's up until late 1960 or early 1961. Then in 61 it became Persian Orange #2 with cream/off white wheels and grille screens on the farm equipment side of thing. Finally, in late 1977 the orange was change again to "Corporate" orange and the wheels became a whiter shade of white.

Thanks kindly. I'm learning for sure. When I was a kid and traveling between St. Louis, Mo, and Springfield, Il I well remember both orange and yellow tractors on the plant grounds. Far too young then and not really from a farming background, never took interest. Never realized there were two orange colors till attempting to replicate this logo. 

Most of the family farm equipment I was around was either J.I. Case, Oliver, or Minneapolis-Moline with John Deere having a very limited presence. The balers were either AC, Oliver, or Heston from memory.  Me, being more of a 'repairer" type individual was always on call for fixing something broken during use, not actually using the equipment. Back in those days farmers of the area worked together instead of being "all inclusive". I mean one neighbor had a picker, or combine, and another had plows and harvest equipment and they "shared" the expense of farming around. Of course all had tractors as never enough of those to around. 

I deliver a lot of new Simplicity lawn equipment and it's color is still "Persian" orange. 


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 2:10pm
is a 10000 series engine intake manifold a direct replacement for an 11000 engine?

Thanks,

Let me update this a bit with reasoning:

The intake on my 11000 does not have the wording "Allis-Chalmers" cast into it. It is smooth and clean. I know where there is an older manifold that does have the name and I'll swap them if possible. I don't know if the air entrance from the air cleaner, or turbocharger is the same between the two. The older manifold is from a blown 10000 engine originally in an HD-11 series tractor. I don't want to ship the manifold here to ship it back if it doesn't fit my application.

I could decal, or stencil the letters, but would rather have the raised cast letters so it looks correct. May be important to me only but we're not going to change that.

Thanks,




Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 7:32am
Decals and materials are ordered from the sign lady. No problem sourcing the "corporate" orange color.

We were sorting through a manual of corporate logos and everything I need was there meaning the AC logo, and all fonts for lettering in the proper ratio and proportion. Even the HD-11 Series B font was there. Replication won't be so difficult after all.

Besides the tag on the bulkhead of the operators compartment, is the serial number of the tractor stamped, or affixed elsewhere? I was able to secure an NOS serial number tag with the silkscreened Allis-Chalmers logo. This to replace the current Fiat-Allis tag. I don't mind restamping the serial number onto the new tag(s).

I talked with the gent whom has the parts chassis. It appears the one chassis that was a p/s type and had the ripper on the back was virtually a duplicate of mine as built with exception of the angle blade and frame. The ripper was added later and when the engine let go the tractor was used as a donor. The engine remains, but also being Fiat-Allis, it doesn't have the intake manifold I'm wanting. The undercarriage is well worn on this tractor but still has many good parts.

So far being unable to locate the proper manifold, I may go with a temporary decal of some sort, but the hunt is on.


Posted By: HD6 Merv
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 12:10pm
serial number is stamped on upper RHS of rear case  and also just around the corner vertically on  right side of rear case.  Powershift starts with 25L.
Should match the tag on the firewall.


-------------
tits tyres and tracks

they all cost you money


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 1:45pm
Thanks again Merv. I actually have a few of the aluminum tags to stamp but I'll have to look to ascertain if one will work for the vertical stamping. I don't want to unwrap the tractor in the weather we are having as no help available. Nobody but me will care regardless. 

I've got everything coming together nicely. When the weather breaks there is a young lad I have do pressure washing on my wash pad and he does a quite thorough job. After getting the tractor up on cribbing, easily removable panels will come off, the machine washed removing any dirt and grease, masked, grit blasted to bare steel followed by an acid etch/wash and finish painting. While this may sound like a lot, it's what we did routinely before I closed the shop. 

While my scenarios may sound extreme, there is a motivation there to be revealed at a later date. 

Thanks kindly,




Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 2:22pm
The very last 11000 Mk2 Engines used in the 11-B also had the Allis Chalmers lettering on the intake manifold.  These had a bracket cast at the front for the water and fuel filters, and another at the back to mount the under hood muffler.


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2022 at 9:47pm
That 10000 series engine manifold is incorrect for my application. One of my uncles ran over to the shop where this part is and the placement of the air inlet is more to the rear than mine which is seemingly centered. The hunt continues.

I've never seen any AC dozer of this vintage with a muffler contained under the hood myself. If I have, certainly have never paid any mind.

I talked to the gent who has that brochure I grabbed the picture of earlier today. I'm going to acquire it just to have more than anything. I did a "zoom" of the overhead view in this brochure and it's clear to see that "open hole" exposing the blade operation linkages is normal as earlier relayed. The panels shown in the parts manual are actually behind the control rod and cover the valve block(s) and are clear to be seen. The way it was shown in the diagrams left it unclear to me. Though blurry, all can be seen here with circular identifier "18" partially obscuring the opening:


Running by tomorrow to grab an armrest from the operator compartment, and starting batteries from the tractor to ensure they are "topped up" for later in the week hopefully. I'm wanting to get a material sample from the upholstery for duplication so going to start that process this next week. Granddaughter is getting anxious to work with the seating for me. I think you guys will like her work. 




Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2022 at 12:47am
I seen this video on youtube and it's an old HD-11 with a non turbocharged engine. At 1:52 into the video is a nice clear shot of the engine and it looks as if the air intake port is centered on this manifold to me? Maybe the one I'd mentioned earlier wasn't from an original HD-11 tractor?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeS_ah4WXKQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeS_ah4WXKQ




Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2022 at 3:30pm
I have located a manifold on a 1972 build HD-11 series B running, and operating tractor. Going to cost me $150.00 and my manifold to cover labor to swap them, but the cost has value to me.

It's coming together nicely. 


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2022 at 6:46am
Scanning through the parts manual to ascertain what will be needed to swap intake manifolds and I see this later edition manifold w/cast bosses of which has been referenced in the past:


Low and behold, the underhood muffler too:


I've located a couple of dealers with most any soft parts I'd need for the engine but nothing near me. I'm finding much is discontinued in the aftermarket but I'm real accustomed to that with my old Mack trucks, Continental, and Hercules Engines also.

Lined up another job for this tractor on Friday rebuilding a retaining wall that is collapsing, or pushing out. From the explanation it doesn't appear the wall had adequate drainage and was not braced appropriately from the backside prior to backfilling.


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 10:01pm
Arrived in the mail today. Really nice brochure without any dealership markings:





I think I now have enough information to work with as the brochure has great detail.


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2022 at 9:19am
Looking over the brochure, looking through the manuals, looking over this and that, along with good conversation, I've received a call from a guy who used to run my dozer for the original owner and happens to remember it quite "fondly" I'll say. He worked for the original purchaser and was for the most part the sole operator of this machine during it's tenure through trade in at the local Caterpillar dealer.

I'm told it was the last Allis unit in inventory and to the best of his knowledge in 1995 the tractor had just over 4500 hours on the meter and the u/c just about worn through after a P&B turn. The engine had never broken down that he remembered and really the only mechanical problems experienced were a radiator from the fan blade carrier bearings failing and taking the core out, and an alternator went bad. A new radiator complete was installed rather than a recore, along with a new reversible cooling fan, along with the original alternator rebuilt by a favored local rebuilder. The "Huber" fan currently mounted matches the parts manual and I assume is a dealer supplied part. The turbocharger was rebuilt also as a suspect part which turned out to be a missed air filter at a service interval. We both got a laugh out of that one.

I'm told this tractor was kept far in excess of normal usage interval because he "liked it" and not being troublesome, was obliged. This I find as very good news. when I asked about it's duties he stated it was mostly on the road construction side so the dozer did a lot of scraper pushing and cleanup which are long and straight jobs without a lot backing up. This would seem to equate to why the undercarriage would go so long, and everything remain so tight on the machine. Also some of the "ribbing" to the moldboard.

I explained my desire to rebrand back to Allis-Chalmers to which he was pleased. This tractor was a replacement for a prior AC HD-11 and was purchased as one of the last "true" AC tractors they'd be able to get with Fiat now in the mix. They knew the 11B was a rebadged HD-11 Series B but he did not like the cab so purchased without. The tractor was found to be getting difficult to source parts for, (undercarriage) and at the end of 1995, it was traded in on a new Caterpillar D5 who installed new chains complete, sprocket segments, a couple of rollers, (don't know which) and front idler bearings. The original selling dealer purchased the tractor back with this work sublet to the Caterpillar dealer. It was then sold to the gent I purchased it from. The undercarriage has a little under 1600 hours on it with his tenure and I estimate with my track gauge for the purpose about 85% remaining on most parts. Grouser bars are at about 75% service remaining which is probably a testament to being used on dirt mostly. Given the tractor was probably left on jobsites, (I didn't think to ask) is probably reason it has the "vandal" protection package installed with all the padlocks.

All that being said, I have ran across something maybe you can help with. In one of the manuals I noticed this logo on the front of a tractor:

You can clearly see "Series B" under the AC corporate logo:


In this photo of which I am emulating with my rebrand, there is no such additional script:



Yet when I look on the face of the brochure the above image was plagiarized from, some tractors show this additional script, some do not:


I'm certainly no purest and has been suggested I'll go my own way, but asking what do you guys think? Wink










Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 6:17am
In the early morning hours and being bored, I scan through my books and I'm not seeing any magnets, or magnetic drain plugs listed in the power shift transmission part section. I do see magnetic drain plugs in the finals compartments, and the main case, but again nothing in the transmission; not even the drain plug.

Is there nothing in there to catch burnishings and the filters relied upon solely for this purpose? I've been into a lot of transmissions and drive axles over the years and have never not seen magnets placed someplace near the wear parts.  


Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2022 at 5:46pm
A lot of the old timers have a lot of faith in magnets, but in modern machines, they aren't gonna do a whole lot.  Sure they may catch the off tooth chip, but then you still have a gear with a damaged tooth...  Most they do is to let you know, if you find something stuck to them.  I still put an rare earth magnet on filters, you can sometimes see where it was attached, on the inside of the filter skin, if you cut open the filter with a can opener...Wink

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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2022 at 7:18am
I agree but a magnet will always catch some burnishings from gear pattern wear throughout the life of the machine. Maybe the drain plug is magnetic in this transmission but doesn't state that in the manual, nor are magnets mentioned anyplace. There is a screen just in front of the suction tube and all this will be checked once the tractor is serviced, along with a plethora of filters to replace. The finals and main case clearly reference magnetic plugs, so find it odd this transmission does not.


Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2022 at 6:21pm
Somewhere in its long life, someone could have swapped them...Wink

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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 8:55am
Had some high winds come through recently and two of my new, and high quality, (you know the type) Dehli, India produced rubber bungee straps broke securing my tarp scenario on the 11B. Nothing a couple of feet of nylon rope didn't take care of however. Still clean and dry in the operator's compartment.

Taking the freshly topped batteries back over and planning to end the hybernation cycle this next week bringing the tractor back to the shop to make ready for work. I've submitted resignation to my implement dealer hauling job as need something more rewarding/challenging to do in retirement.

I'm looking for a starter RGN lowboy trailer under about $15K if anyone knows anything available. Trailer will be dedicated to this dozer and doesn't matter if mechanical, or hydraulic neck. Also wouldn't rule out a folder and also doesn't matter if mechanical, or power fold as I have the large winch needed.




Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2022 at 7:41am
Ran by with the fresh batteries yesterday afternoon dropping them by the side of the tractor. Not going to manhandle those behemoths by myself as Tony wasn't around to help. I did however climb up onto a track, opened the battery compartment and flipped on the master disconnect. I then pushed the starter button and those spare shop batteries currently installed are not flat at all. That 11000 engine rolls around fast but the tractor is still tarped so didn't fire it off. 

Got a small hole worn through the tarp where a muffler support bracket was rubbing when the rubber bungees starting breaking allowing the tarp to make contact. Not a worry and I'll cement a patch over this compromise once the tractor is opened up again.

Didn't untarp but did replaced the broken bungees with new. Unfortunately they too are from the same batch as the prior so a short lived repair I'm certain. Supposed to start raining again this afternoon so didn't open her up, but sure am getting anxious. Later in the week possibly. 


Posted By: Eric B
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2022 at 12:34pm
I can very well relate to your story. It seems like weather, wind, tarps and bungees are playing a game with us to see who is going to win LOL. When we think we have the upper hand it seems like 'they' are going for the next 'chess move'.
Soon you'll be having fun with your machine and these winter thoughts will be long gone :)


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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2022 at 5:31pm
I'm far beyond tired of winter for some reason this year. Anxious to get the tractor home for some maintenance and upkeep on top of have already sold my services for a couple of jobs. I've cut my pricing as these are friends and they are going to let me "play" on their properties while actually doing real work. One needs a berm cut down to allow a lakeside view  from his back door. It is current encumbered by about 60' depth of treelines  running about 500' which have grown up in the berm from when it was formed 26 years ago. The house wasn't built or decided upon then, but is now.  Another job is to cut in a road and  level a building lot from former strip mine property. This was "spoils" so will need some conditioning by topsoil blending but the homesite is now selected to work up to.

That tarp in my opinion was worth the extra money it cost. It has held up much better than the best polyethylene tarps out there. I will purchase a small one to use for patching and a flexible contact cement for permanent repairs when needed.     


Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2022 at 8:38am
If you ever run out of "work" for that dozer, I have a 40 acre overgrown pasture next to me. The owner lets me hunt it, but wants access paths cut all around it for a small tractor(mine for mowing) and a 4 wheeler . Wink
 Last fall I got a guy with an excavator in to clean up a half acre of the old barn yard. Now I need to do some root raking and leveling so he can seed it down for a view from his camper site.


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http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2022 at 9:14am
I will get in touch later in the spring as I want to do these local jobs first to both gain experience, and kinda learn the ropes of operation. I'm not, nor ever have been an operator and going to teach myself.

I've found a couple of designs for a root rake to build, but I want to have the tractor at my shop when laying it out for fitment. Hope to have that done sometime in the near future.   


Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2022 at 9:51pm
Ran over this afternoon to install the batteries. Tarp still looks nice after setting all winter:

Installed the two batteries shown on the ground next to the push beams by myself while standing on the track and under the tarp. A real bitch too. A bit snug, dry, and cozy inside despite the wind and rain we've had of late:



Engine cranks strong but I'm not going to start it while tarped, obviously.

The weather for the next few days is supposed to shape up a bit so may get back over to make a couple of quick repairs and squirt some grease into joints with my new Milwaukee M18 grease gun purchased for this tractor. Also have an Alemite two speed manual grease gun to permanently affix to the chassis someplace with it's mount. I need to figure out where I'll mount my track spade, (shovel) for cleaning mud out of the undercarriage also. 



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