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210 engine rebuild vid |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21854 |
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New rod bolts-good. Rotating rods because of slotted rod bearings-good. Timing the injection pump correctly to #1 cylinder-really good. Inj pump 20% overfueled only overfuels if the engine was loaded heavier. Shouldn't have normally been an issue EXCEPT if the pump was out of time, which it must have been. Sleeve cavitation erosion won't happen because of looser piston skirt clearance. It happens because of wrong coolant without proper additives. Heavy Duty diesel coolant is the only correct type to use. Advanced pump timing (which we now think it was) would aggravate cavitation erosion, YES. Valve guide seals, I never have and never will use. I don't care what they do. Both intake and exhaust valve guides are pressurized from underneath from turbocharging and don't need those. Piston skirt clearance at .005" is by far better than .004" or .003" or .0025" which are all within specs. D-21 specs of .007" to .009" would make me sleep much better at night. Hope things go well for them this time around and I'm sure it will. Time to get farming !!! Torquing head bolts under the rocker arm shaft isn't a problem when you have the correct special wrench to do it with.
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WF owner ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 5015 |
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I watched this last video. I also saw the one where they rebuilt, installed the engine and ran it some. I disagree that the injection timing was off 180 degrees.
Back in the late 70's or early 80's, when were were pulling, we had some work done on the injection pump. When it came back, I installed it, as I had several times before. I had to use starting fluid to get it started, it belched gray smoke and it would hardly pull itself. Absolutely no power. When I took the pump back to our pump guy, they had mistakenly timed it 180 degrees off. They fixed it, gave me some new banjo washers and I reinstalled the pump and it ran perfect. If they had been that far out of time, I don't think the engine would have run like it did and never would have enough power to work it at all.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21854 |
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The actual injection timing wasn't 180 degrees off. The pumps timing mark was approximately 180 degrees off, and more like 170 or 190 degrees off, putting the actual timing say maybe (a guess) 10 degrees advanced, which would put the spray pattern just up and out of the pistons mexican hat bowl. Being it was 180ish degrees off on the mark, caused them to have to "time" the pump on number 6 cylinder instead of number 1 cylinder. If it would have been EXACTLY 180 degrees off, timing on number 6 would have been fine. Injpumped said there are 24 splines on the governor weight retainer where the "mark" is scribed. 360 degrees divided by 24 splines is 15 pump degrees per spline, which would transfer to 30 crankshaft degrees for one spline off. Doesn't seem possible that it could have been that far off. It should have started terrible at that setting, unless I'm figuring it wrong and it was only 7 1/2 degrees advanced instead of 30 degrees ??
Edited by DrAllis - 12 Mar 2023 at 6:56pm |
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injpumpEd ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 5095 |
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Haven't watched the new vid, but did the shop ever say exactly what they found in the pump?
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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WF owner ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 5015 |
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He said something to the effect that they sent it to a different shop and he was disappointed that they just tore into it, without checking what the previous position was.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21854 |
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The new pump shop claimed the pump was set 20% overfueled. No mention of the governor weight retainer being installed wrong as they weren't paying attention when they disassembled it, so it can't be proven, other than it couldn't be timed on #1 before.
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injpumpEd ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 5095 |
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well, 20% over on a 210 pump is just a little over stock for a 220, which is the same engine. 20% over on roller setting is no surprise, but there was no way of knowing how far down the torque screw was set. But, the more you open up the roller setting on a RM pump, the sooner injection begins, when it is loaded to max pump delivery. Now, watching the vids of it pulling the little chisel, it was in no way working it to even stock full load, would guess it was taking about 100hp to pull it. Either the mark itself was placed in the wrong spot, or the retainer was put on completely wrong, which would be off a long way.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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garden_guy ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Location: Illinois Points: 1150 |
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I don't know anything about these engines but I feel like I've learned quite a lot from those videos and this thread. Looking forward to the next one again.
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JC-WI ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: wisconsin Points: 34307 |
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Oh wow... that engine rebuild. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() timing the alternator belts ... 'failures to do this critical step may result in scored pistons and liners, cracked exhaust valves, and most of all, a bruised ego... ' ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
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Mikez ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Jan 2013 Location: Usa Points: 8706 |
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What was that little video supposed to be
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JC-WI ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: wisconsin Points: 34307 |
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Link should work... It's from Jim's Automotive Machine Shop, Inc. About the Allis 210 that he rebuilt the engine once and then took it down to rebuild the second time after discovering problems stemming from injection pump / timing.. and it is just simply a funny vid about timing your alternator... and the hilarious comments below the vid... Like, "Glad you didn’t put them on backwards or it would discharge the battery while running."
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
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exSW ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 21 Jul 2017 Location: Pennsylvania Points: 914 |
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I think I've watched all the vids on this engine. To me the most telling thing was in the post mortem vid showing the injector spray pattern on the #6 piston.
Edited by exSW - 16 Mar 2023 at 12:48pm |
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Learning AC...slowly
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Mikez ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Jan 2013 Location: Usa Points: 8706 |
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Yes sorry I watched them all to. Guess I didn’t pick up that it was suppose to be a comedy. I’d want to make sure it ran before I made fun.
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garden_guy ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Location: Illinois Points: 1150 |
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New video just went up today. I'd say she's running pretty good now! There was a sister video that went up about potential injector pump failure stuff here: |
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AC720Man ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 Oct 2016 Location: Shenandoah, Va Points: 5226 |
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Just watched the last video, the tractor sounds good but I’m also quite disappointed with the high thirty’s oil pressure. I would have expected closer to 50 psi on a full rebuild. Heck, my 4K plus hr XT runs 35- 40 psi at 2k rpm after she is warmed up. Maybe the 426 is totally different than a 301 when it comes to oil psi.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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BrianC ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Location: New York Points: 1619 |
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No more on this thread? This is like when your favorite TV show gets cancelled. The video from the Area Diesel Service guy was fantastic. I watched Jim's videos several times and the Area Diesel Service guy summed it up so well. Looks like about 6 ways to assemble it wrong and get the timing off. Telling was the comment that about 1/2 the pumps they work on have that index tab broken off. Reusing this part could allow the mistake of being off in timing if they mesh the wrong splines. Wonder if that was the case here. So Jim was still left with a knot in his stomach when it was go time with the repaired engine. I would also. How could the owner do a final timing check just before start up? What is this air time test Ed mentioned? What is spill timing, dribble timing? Can they all be done with pump installed (hope so). This engine had timing marks on the pulley. What was the intended purpose for this? I get a knot in my stomach using a hand crank start on an gas engine with magneto. However, I know how to verify the magneto before committing to the crank. There are pressure sensors to activate a timing light, but they don't have good reviews. |
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SteveM C/IL ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8613 |
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Think pump has to be on test stand to air time it. There you have the degree wheel to tell where you are. My 220 had to be air timed after changing shoes for increased fuel delivery. This timing info needs kept safe because you can't use original crank degrees mounting/setting timing.
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injpumpEd ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 5095 |
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Roosa and CAV pumps are air timed on the work bench before putting on the test stand. It verifies the pump has been assembled properly. Nothing really magical about it. CAV technically says to pressurize with fuel, but since Stanadyne says air, we all use air, they invented the design afterall.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Kevin210 ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 08 Oct 2018 Location: Indiana Points: 425 |
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I assume you all have seen the tractor running again,wish him good luck this time.
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KJCHRIS ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 21 Dec 2015 Location: WC Iowa Points: 954 |
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I saw the U tube from the other guy pump shop. I didn't realize there's so many different ways to get a pump timed wrong internally. IT's too bad they didn't get to do the rework on the pump and show us what they found.
Memory not what it was & only been 40 years since I had 1 apart !! |
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AC 200, CAH, AC185D bareback, AC 180D bareback, D17 III, WF. D17 Blackbar grill, NF. D15 SFW. Case 1175 CAH, Bobcat 543B,
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