210 engine rebuild vid
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=188907
Printed Date: 24 Aug 2025 at 12:02pm
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Topic: 210 engine rebuild vid
Posted By: Ron(AB)
Subject: 210 engine rebuild vid
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 12:19am
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFM0txXtht8" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFM0txXtht8 ------------- 405, 7000, 7050, 8050, 8070, L3, 2300 & 2600 disk |
Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2022 at 6:39pm
| Sleeve Orings installed wrong. Orange Oring goes on the bottom. Sleeve Oring lube that he used I would not ever use. New updated AGCO connecting rod bolts should have been used. Connecting rods should have been turned around with the new slotted rod bearing shells. I doubt that he did that. Harvey engines do not need or use valve guide seals. Camshaft should have been updated to the four inch long grade 8 bolt in the nose to prevent breakage of the camshaft. Front plate gasket appeared to be installed dry, so it will leak someday. New grade 8 hardware with loctite should also have been used. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 5:47am
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We use Murphy's Oil Soap in the tub for liner orings here at the shop and have never had a problem. Exception is the top filler bad on a 3406 CAT liner, that gets engine oil as the oil causes it to swell and seal. I too noticed the front plate going on dry I wondered about it. Looks like a nice machine shop. Wish he was closer. ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 6:15am
| Lots of nice tooling for sure. My issues with his work on that engine is because he isn't that knowledgeable on the A-C 3000 series engine. I'm sure he has a ton of knowledge, but it isn't on Allis as shown by what I consider to be his mistakes on this OH. As far as the Oring lube, I've experienced piston/sleeve seizure from too much of or use of the wrong lube, squeezing the sleeve too tightly. Only on non-piston cooled engines like that one. I know of an old friend from NW Illinois that had a 7030 apart three times for piston/sleeve scoring after OH. |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 7:43am
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Interesting video. Is it normal for the 2nd ring to be broken? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 8:05am
| Yup. They had issues with that years ago. Pretty common, especially when ether was used a lot. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 8:38am
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I do my own overhauls of course, but I would let him do my machine work in a heartbeat. Hindsight is 20/20, but I wish when I a graduated college from NADC, I should have jumped on a plane and took the course at School of Automotive Machine (S.A.M.) in Texas. I wish I had all the knowledge and tooling to do all of my own machine work ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 9:40am
| All my 2nd rings and a few top rings were broken when my 220 got tore down. Fogged pretty good out the breather but sill ran good. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2022 at 10:08am
| It took them a few years, but they finally changed the 2nd ring material to help with that problem. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2023 at 8:06pm
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An older post, but in following up to the original: https://youtu.be/RHDLi9IfgKc" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/RHDLi9IfgKc ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Ron(AB)
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2023 at 8:50pm
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That's too bad! Pull it apart a 2nd time... ------------- 405, 7000, 7050, 8050, 8070, L3, 2300 & 2600 disk |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2023 at 10:05pm
| I have no way to contact them. The problem is somewhat typical with overhaul parts. They had Orings installed incorrectly when they assembled it. They used too much and the wrong kind of Oring lube on the sleeves. Lastly, this engine doesn't have piston cooling and the new overhaul parts need piston cooling because the sleeve/piston running clearance is too tight !! All the sleeves need to be seriously honed to loosen things up .002" or .003" because it may do it again !! By this I mean .002" to .003" removed from the sleeve, so .004" to .006" increase in diameter of the inside of the sleeve. Read my previous posts !! |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2023 at 11:23pm
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Dr below the video is a paragraph and at the end says show more. Click that and it drops down some info. Website an email. That’s kinda interesting.we bought an 8050 that acted weird and would stall. Never really figured out. Found it had cracked block and I bought a whole other engine from salvage. But anyway the cylinders looked like that and was supposed to be a new motor job
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 6:26am
| Thanks, Mike. I sent him an email. Hope he hasn't got it back together yet. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 8:53am
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So many wrong answers in the comments on the page! Wow! I'm with Dr on this, but also who did the injection work? Seems sketchy at best if they cannot even put timing mark on correct side! The guy commenting about how 24 seems too high doesn't know his @$$ from a hole in the ground about pumps, deere & ih are timed at end of injection so it can be timed at or near tdc. It is simply where the mark in the pump is placed. The AC pumps are marked for beginning of injection, the pump advance is 6*, so 12 crankshaft degrees. So at higher speeds when at full advance we have the 12 plus 24, for 36* total degrees. Most engines will be timed between 28 and 38*. These pumps can be air timed, which a good rebuilder does to verify it is assembled correctly. Apply air pressure to the #1 outlet, turn pump shaft normal direction (cw from front) and it will "lock up" when it is beginning to inject. At that point the lines should align with each other. I've had the pleasure of fixing other shop's poorly rebuilt pumps that do cause premature failures, due to being marked wrong. Sadly the parts often get blamed. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: BKarpel
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 8:54am
| Do you think it is pump related? I was reading the comments. I have ran 40 degrees with EDs pump. Think he locks the advance. To me it looks like pistons got tight. Wish I could find a $500 210! |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 9:18am
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Brandon, 40* is strictly for a pulling Roosa pump with the timing advance locked out. I'd be happy to find a 1000$ one lmao! I do think it's funny he is taking it back to the shop that did it to begin with, they will surely not "find" anything wrong lol! Coers Olivers had a similar issue with a rebuild. It was pump timing mark issue. It didn't look like that chisel pulled hard enough to overload it. Makes me wonder if the engine didn't need rebuilt to begin with. They had the pump rebuilt, then started using it, and it then ended up with a ton of blowby, kinda like this time. I'd say there's a connection here. I don't remember if it was scored cylinders in the original sleeves. I bet it was! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 10:05am
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I just watched a tiktok video on this tractor yesterday. I certainly hope that this guy gets Dr's advice in time to save another failure. I've watched many tiktoks from these guys (father/son) and they seem to be awesome machinists, but maybe need some allis engine building advice. The dad seems to be an allis guy, and I like to see that. They could probably use some advice from Ed also. Darrel |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 11:37am
| Hopefully they will except the advice. |
Posted By: MikeKroupa
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 12:15pm
| I've always used JD sleeve soap on liner o-rings. Never have had a problem. Back in the day, while in college, seen a NTC 855 Cummins seize up from a rolled liner 0-ring. It's one procedure that has to done correrctly or it will haunt you., Mike |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2023 at 6:02pm
| Done a little research tonite on piston skirt to sleeve clearance and will relay the information. From the D-21 service manual: .0065" to .009" (these are numbers I like) from the 210/220 7030/7080 and 8030/8070 service manuals .0025" to .005" !!! NO WAY !! The 210/220 and 7030 engines have no piston cooling and there is no way that .0025" will ever work (and doesn't work) and even .005" is too tight to suit me. I always like .007" or more on any pulling engine I threw together for trouble free operation. So, I also looked at a 6080 engine and a 7010-7020 engine and even they are at .004" to .007" on a much smaller diameter piston. Makes the D-21 numbers look very correct comparing a 4.25" piston to a 3.875" piston !! 301 puller engines with no coolant around the sleeves we shoot for .015" minimum. |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 12:35am
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The 190/190XT manual, (301) lists the ring gaps Top, 2nd & 3rd at .017 -.032" Oil control rings at .015 - .025" and piston ring to groove clearance at Top compression ring .0050 - .0065" 2nd and 3rd rings .003 - .0055" Oil control ring .001 - .003" Piston sleeve running clearance at bottom of skirt, .0035" to .0065" and states no less than the .0035" to prevent premature failure of piston or liner. Going to the service manual for Model 210 - 220... service manual part no. 9003416 in general specifications, Cylinder ID, 4.2495" - 4.2510" Piston skirt dia. 4.246" - 4.247" clearance of .0035" - .005" according to numbers above. But... book lists .0025" - .0050" in the piston section. On page A-125 PISTONS AND PISTON RINGS Inspection, it says: new cyl. sleeve ID 4.2495" - 4.3510" (0.10 larger id bore than above... misprint, the 4.351" dia. should have been 4.251") New piston skirt dia. 4.242" - 4.243" (Different numbers than above) clearance of .0065" to .009" (different numbers entirely) listed in service section ring end gaps top 3 .013" - .033" oil control end gaps .008" - .028" In spec section pages top compression ring .013" - .028" second & 3rd rings .009" - .024" oil control spec .009" - .024" Seems somebody didn't do their proof readings... So what were the real numbers on new piston skirts? Guess as long as there was .005" -.009" gap between sleeve and piston, things would be fine. ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 6:07am
| I'd like .009" better than .005" (on a 426 with no piston cooling) and there is no way .0025" would ever work. I agree, someones calculator had a key there was coffee spilled on making it stick. Kind of the same thing when you look up compression ratio numbers for a 200-7000-7010-7020. Always in the advertising literature it was 16 to 1, when in reality it was 15 to 1. Anyway, what I see, this 220 engine failed from tight piston skirts. They responded to my e-mail and realize the orange O ring was in the top groove, which according to Allis is wrong. Reliance told them to install orange on top and black on the bottom, which is wrong. There will always be those who "have never had any trouble with the o-ring lube they've always used". I'm telling you from experience, too much lube or the wrong lube squeezes those sleeves tightly and can cause exactly what this 220 engine failed from !! You don't have to believe it. Just have it happen ONCE and you'll change your thinking !! There is also the possibility that the aluminum piston material Reliance (or anyone else of today) is using has a slightly different expansion rate than the material A-C used 40+ years ago. Which kind of negates original piston skirt specs, whichever spec numbers are correct. Looser (up to a point) is better. |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 7:26am
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I'm glad that they responded to you Dr, and I hope that they build a very good working relationship with you, and get this rebuild done right. They are very popular on tiktok, and I love seeing positive allis chalmers content on there, because there are so many allis chalmers haters over there; makes me sick to my stomach. Thanks for all of ypur allis chalmers wisdom. Darrel |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 7:36am
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I wonder if the conflicting specs above are one section for new parts, and another section is re-use guidelines? I'm surprised they aren't on this page. This is THE page to be on if you are an AC person! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 7:45am
Just curious What do you recommend for O ring lube, Doc?
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DrAllis wrote:Posted By: jeickman01
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 5:22pm
| Just out of curiousity, does AGCO offer parts/a rebuild kit for this engine? That's what I would be looking for if it were mine. Seems to me that you can discuss proper clearances, correct liner packing positions, and the right liner packing lube all you want but it's all irrelevant unless the aftermarket pistons, liners and packings are exact copies and therefore perform exactly like OEM parts. OEM and aftermarket pistons may have the same clearance when cold but not at operating temperature. What about the change in ring material to prevent the typical second ring breakage? Did the aftermarket pick up on that and change theirs too? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 5:31pm
| I've always used Mazola corn oil on sleeve orings. Wipe a thin film with your finger inside the lower block bore. Lightly brush some on each Oring, again lightly. Too much slobbered on the oring and sleeve area can get you in trouble because the excess oil gets trapped between the Orings and squeezes the sleeves, especially when it gets hot. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 6:10pm
| Thanks Doc! |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 8:15pm
| i have been using the jd deere sleeve soap that bottle lasts forever becuase like the doc says you only need to get it all slick to put them realy comes down to to having good clean counter bores |
Posted By: Carl(NWWI)
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 11:39pm
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I use 3m silicone paste for sleeve orings. Was thought that in tech school and have rebuilt a lot of engines that way with zero issues. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 5:57am
| How many 426 A-C non-piston cooled engines have you done ?? |
Posted By: cdreb
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 2:06pm
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I was still trying to get enough money for an overhaul for this 220 I have. All overhaul kits need to be honed to get enough piston clearance for a non piston cooling engine? I was still trying to get an Clevite kit... ------------- B,C,5020,D17,(2)-190XT's,220,D21,7060, Agco LT70 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 2:23pm
| I would highly suggest you check skirt clearance on the bench and then recheck AFTER the sleeve is installed in the block with Orings. Do one and see what happens. I say you need .007" or more skirt clearance to be safe. Let's see what these guys with the 210 engine failure finally figure out. |
Posted By: orangereborn
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2023 at 12:37pm
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When I started on wet sleeves AC had a paste in a tube...At an AC service school was told to use the little can of plumbers pipe thread paste sealer...Was the same thing...Had the benefit of reseal and corrosion resistance. I think that is why they said it was good for galvanize pipe. "because it had lead in it.."
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Posted By: coggonobrien
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2023 at 3:32pm
| hopefully we get a follow up video this week with mention of the Dr |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2023 at 4:25pm
| For those who haven't worked on a 426, they have 3 Orings, not the typical 2. |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2023 at 7:57am
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This is from the Reliance site tech tips section. https://www.reliancepowerparts.com/catalog/documents/tech-tips/parts-and-service-bulletins/general/REL-1.62-8.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.reliancepowerparts.com/catalog/documents/tech-tips/parts-and-service-bulletins/general/REL-1.62-8.pdf https://www.reliancepowerparts.com/catalog/documents/tech-tips/parts-and-service-bulletins/general/REL-1.62-7.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.reliancepowerparts.com/catalog/documents/tech-tips/parts-and-service-bulletins/general/REL-1.62-7.pdf What severe consequences (bad luck?) to use too much lube. I also wonder if Reliance has taken action about the second ring breaking. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2023 at 8:35am
| I'm sure Reliance is using the updated second piston ring that A-C started using in 1978 or 79. They say "lightly" applied sleeve Oring lube, which is what I have been preaching, LIGHTLY. Because excessive or heavier viscosity lube squeeze the sleeve and/or damages the Orings when assembling. I also contend that if they (and others) are using that .0025" to .005" skirt clearance dimension spec, that is too tight and is absitively too tight for non-piston cooled engines, as the piston swells up more under load and that .0025" clearance goes to ZERO and that's when the crap hits the fan. |
Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2023 at 8:42am
I agree one hundred percent, .0025 is nothing, no reason to be that tight. Will cause undue friction even if it does not seize. ------------- 2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50 |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2023 at 10:17am
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uploads/8665/15140ACD-4C20-41BC-BDA6-381384671C0D.jpeg" rel="nofollow - uploads/8665/15140ACD-4C20-41BC-BDA6-381384671C0D.jpeg .
Do you think something like that happened here
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Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2023 at 10:37am
| I don’t know why the picture didn’t come up. Sorry |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2023 at 12:55pm
| looks like it ate a bunch of dirt. |
Posted By: Peterson
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 1:16pm
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https://youtu.be/ptxyf8xTDX0" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ptxyf8xTDX0 Well they pulled it down and are confident that it was the injection timing. I don't know if they got back to the Dr. Or not with what he said but sounds like they don't want his advice. Going to put it back together tight. ------------- 7095-685I at 255hp, 8070-225HP,8050-210Hp,8030 with 155HP,220 with 670T engine with A-pump, 7580, 185 with 140HP, 2-6080's,6070, S4 D17,wd45,CA,st34 agco, S1 D17 with 3500MK2 |
Posted By: youngorange2000
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 2:39pm
| I would like to know how much experience they have with the non piston cooled 426 or any AC diesel for that matter they said in the video they have 40 years experience and also say in the same video they rarely get to do the full assembly of the engine so can't have it both ways.The wise have spoken from experience it's their choice to heed it or hold their own. But on the bright side there's a 50/50 chance we can get a second why did it fail video for entertainment purposes. But what do I know I'm just a dumb farmer |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 2:40pm
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So the testing of the pump wouldn't really do anything but waste time. The advance on these particular 210/220 AC pumps are nothing more than a start retard. They are at full advance by 1200-1400 rpm. A D21 is non advance pump, timed to 34*, these run at 36* with full advance, so very similar. I still say the shop put the weight carrier on wrong, resulting in the wrong position for the timing mark, not just off 180*, but off by a spline as well. All you had to do is apply air pressure into the #1 outlet, and turn shaft until it stops, look and see where timing mark is. Being too far advanced is why it was spraying over the piston bowl making it burn out around the crown, causing the ring ends to butt up. I actually think the shop that rebuilt this pump wrong in the beginning is actually what ruined the original sleeves and pistons. A DB pump has 2 positions to put the retainer on, thus having 180* off if wrong. These DC pumps have 24 splines, so it has 23 chances to get it wrong. I am not sure how in the heck they would have just happened to get it on 180* off, I still think it was off by a spline in addition to that. This is why we air time them after assembly. This tractor may have not been in too bad a shape before the pump shop effed it all up, and they just left it on is also a huge mistake. Now, I know they don't want to hear our solutions, but I'm putting this on for our own members, and many of you are customers of mine. Not everyone deserves the best lmfao! I'd like to hear who the 2 shops they used are. I am curious if the current pump shop noted where the weight carrier and timing mark actually were. I do agree with him in the fit is probably not the issue, they would all be scored, the one looks perfect.
------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 4:11pm
| First off, it is very unfortunate that they have had a such a catastrophic failure in such a short time of operation on new parts. Like so often on this website, all the information isn't readily given, so coming up with an accurate cause or solution is more difficult. I would have assumed the injection pump was timed properly to the #1 cylinder. Their methodology was correct...align the crank pulley to 24 degrees BTDC and the mark inside the pump should line up. They even made sure the crank pulley was indexed reasonably correct and it indeed was. But it was never mentioned that they HAD to time it on #6 instead of #1. Like Ed just said, I don't think it could have actually been "timed" correctly because of the way the governor weight retainer is splined/attached to the pumps rotor. It isn't just #1 or #6. It can fit differently than that, so 24 degrees BTDC may have actually been 32 degrees BTDC. I could see in this last video the injector spray pattern much better than the previous video, and yet while it wasn't over the top of the bowl, it wasn't down in the bowl 100% either. I agree with them 100%, this was not a cooling system issue. Those engines don't "air lock" if you take your time filling the radiator, and I'm always cognizant of how many gallons I have poured into an empty cooling system. There is a proper cooling system capacity for every machine. The piston skirt clearance was checked on a good sleeve and piston and found to be within the .0025" and .005" range, which is within specs. I've found that within the range given, the nominal figure is usually near the center of the specs, which it was. This I can assure you: when that sleeve is installed in the block with the Orings, it certainly won't be any looser on skirt clearance. I was very surprised to recently find that according to my official A-C service manuals that a D-21 engines skirt clearance was .0065" to .009", while the 210/220 engines (and newer) are listed to be .0025" to .005". How could this possibly be ?? The engines are identical in almost every way. Could there be a mistake in information transferred from the printing of one manual to a newer manual ?? I don't have any service bulletins from that mid 1960's to early 70's time frame to know if there was a legitimate tightening of these numbers or not, I was still in high school !! This I know from all my years of working on these engines, non piston cooled 426 engines are more prone to skirt scoring than any of the piston cooled engines. And why wouldn't they be ?? If the pistons aren't bathed with oil from underneath to help keep them cool, they swell up more under 100% full load and the hotter the day, the cooling system runs warmer than on a Fall day, which can contribute to even hotter pistons, making the skirt clearances even tighter !! I'm just saying looser is better on these older engines because of what I have seen over the years. We even had a 7030 one day on the dyno (an engine with 4 or 5,000 hrs on it) under full load lock up and stall from a scored piston !! So it does happen and makes you want to puke when it does !! So, ever since that incident and other stories I have heard from fellow dealers, .007" minimum skirt clearance has been my preferred spec to never have an issue, just like the D-21 engine. There were two types of piston cooling on these 426 engines. The early design was a small hole drilled in the upper main bearing saddle that was aimed at the underside of the piston just missing the connecting rods piston pin end. The second design was when they went to a 3-ring piston with the larger piston pin and pumped the oil thru a rifile drilled connecting rod to the pin bushing and then the cooling nozzle on top of the rod. Either way, piston temps were reduced by being constantly cooled with engine oil. I'm sure they'll get it back together and with things being timed correctly, it will be fine. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 4:22pm
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I hope they change those old style rod bolts, especially after having severe stress put on them trying to pull the scored piston down. Should use the ARP bolts from AGCO anyway. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 4:25pm
| They've been made aware of that and the turning around the conn rods with slotted rod bearings. |
Posted By: jeickman01
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 5:05pm
| So if the timing was 180 off and too advanced by a spline wouldn't this affect all of the cylinders? Was the scoring due to heat (piston and/or ring expansion) or fuel washing down the cylinder walls as the piston was coming to TDC before combustion. If it was the latter, I wonder if they had fuel in the crankcase? I'm retired now but in all my years of being around this stuff I have never learned as much as I have from this thread. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 5:12pm
| The pump timing itself wasn't 180 off. The actual pump timing must have been 10 degrees advanced and that is just a guess, but it was advanced, not retarded. The timing mark inside the pump was 180 off, or not really but it was 170 or 190 degrees off. Like Ed said, the splines on the timing mark part aren't exactly 180 off. So, anyway, they timed it on cylinder number 6, which if it was exactly 180 off, would have been fine. If it was a pump off of a 180 thru 200 tractor, it is exactly 180 degrees different because the timing mark inside the pump only assemble two ways...correct or 180 off. The D21/210/220 can assemble 23 different ways, I think. Anyway it is splined so many choices. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 5:46pm
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24 ways, 1 right, 23 wrong chances lol! I feel they were right on the edge of too far advanced, which is why they felt it was "close" because it seemed to run pretty good. The holes in the nozzles can vary ever so slightly, and 2 inches away it can "lift" the spray pattern on the one hole, seems that is the area they like to start burning on pullers too, left front corner. Sometimes the installer just sets them in, and puts the bolts in and torques them. I always set them in, put bolts in just ran down, then turn the injector body clockwise to take up the "slop" in the bolt holes, then tighten them down. These little variations could lead to one cylinder being different than another by a small margin. Also the Roosa pump being of the variable beginning of injection variety, the cylinder to cylinder "start of injection" could vary a small amount, and being on the very edge already, puts it over the edge. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2023 at 8:34pm
| So, we don't actually know how the wrong timing mark positioning in the injection pump was discovered, do we ?? Did Jim's notice with the injection pumps marks aligned in the window it didn't have the rotor discharge hole showing at the #1 port ?? or did the whole injection system get completely installed and then the engine wouldn't start ?? At some point Jim's had to figure out the pumps lines were approx 180 degrees off. Maybe they made a phone call to their pump rebuilder and were told " well, just time it on #6 and it will be fine" ?? which of course would have been OK (on a DB pump) or maybe not OK (on a DC pump) ?? which if that was the case, that would have been poor advice to Jim's. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 7:16am
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One of the earlier videos he talked about having the pump supposedly put together wrong. Now, he may have had the shaft in the wrong place, but since that's how it was, pump shop corrected the issue, and now is not correct for out of position shaft and gear? Who knows. It was pretty obvious though I thought. I'm sure he will be sure it was someone else who messed up lol! If it was my customer, I would have instructed him on correcting the issue if there was one. You cannot time a Roosa correctly with a timing light either, unless you can check it at full load on a dyno. I remember him mentioning wanting to use a light to check timing. They do work great on an inline pump though. It's the way a Roosa or CAV varies the fuel, the beginning of injection changes with load, this is completely separate from the timing advance mechanisms. Most are speed advance, some have no advance (early 190, D21), some have load sensing advance (IH 282 in 560/656) Some use a speed advance with a light load advance on top of that, (7080/7580/N6) ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 8:04am
| Diesel timing lights just verify the advance is working. I trust them for nothing else. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 10:28am
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Im sure they are out there, but I have never seen an engine time off of #6, or #4 or whatever, always #1. That said, if I sent a pump out to be rebuilt and at came back to set timing at #6 (theoretically possible on some pumps) and all of the service data for the engine was written to set at #1, that pump would have gone right back to the rebuilder to be assembled correctly. ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 10:46am
Used one in college. Never had to use one since LOL ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: garden_guy
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 11:25am
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Interesting discussion in this thread. Very interested to see what they have found out in their next video update. This thread makes me glad I never had to look at anything newer than a WD-45 engine or mess with an injection pump. Not to drag back up the o-rings but unfortunately they come in so many "colors" now it's hard to tell what one is by its colorant. Did the original manuals say what material and durometer they were, or just how to use the color to fit them up where they go?
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Posted By: ryan(IN)
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 11:32am
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Yes the service manual said the orange oring was a silicone type and the black were buna n I believe. ------------- ryan 1984 8070 FWA,1979 7060,1975 7040,1971 190,1960 D-17D,1957 D-14, 196? D-19G, 1975 5040,1971? 160,1994 R62 |
Posted By: Peterson
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2023 at 12:05pm
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https://youtu.be/xathUEC0Mss" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/xathUEC0Mss ------------- 7095-685I at 255hp, 8070-225HP,8050-210Hp,8030 with 155HP,220 with 670T engine with A-pump, 7580, 185 with 140HP, 2-6080's,6070, S4 D17,wd45,CA,st34 agco, S1 D17 with 3500MK2 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2023 at 1:18pm
| New rod bolts-good. Rotating rods because of slotted rod bearings-good. Timing the injection pump correctly to #1 cylinder-really good. Inj pump 20% overfueled only overfuels if the engine was loaded heavier. Shouldn't have normally been an issue EXCEPT if the pump was out of time, which it must have been. Sleeve cavitation erosion won't happen because of looser piston skirt clearance. It happens because of wrong coolant without proper additives. Heavy Duty diesel coolant is the only correct type to use. Advanced pump timing (which we now think it was) would aggravate cavitation erosion, YES. Valve guide seals, I never have and never will use. I don't care what they do. Both intake and exhaust valve guides are pressurized from underneath from turbocharging and don't need those. Piston skirt clearance at .005" is by far better than .004" or .003" or .0025" which are all within specs. D-21 specs of .007" to .009" would make me sleep much better at night. Hope things go well for them this time around and I'm sure it will. Time to get farming !!! Torquing head bolts under the rocker arm shaft isn't a problem when you have the correct special wrench to do it with. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2023 at 4:31pm
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I watched this last video. I also saw the one where they rebuilt, installed the engine and ran it some. I disagree that the injection timing was off 180 degrees. Back in the late 70's or early 80's, when were were pulling, we had some work done on the injection pump. When it came back, I installed it, as I had several times before. I had to use starting fluid to get it started, it belched gray smoke and it would hardly pull itself. Absolutely no power. When I took the pump back to our pump guy, they had mistakenly timed it 180 degrees off. They fixed it, gave me some new banjo washers and I reinstalled the pump and it ran perfect. If they had been that far out of time, I don't think the engine would have run like it did and never would have enough power to work it at all.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2023 at 6:44pm
| The actual injection timing wasn't 180 degrees off. The pumps timing mark was approximately 180 degrees off, and more like 170 or 190 degrees off, putting the actual timing say maybe (a guess) 10 degrees advanced, which would put the spray pattern just up and out of the pistons mexican hat bowl. Being it was 180ish degrees off on the mark, caused them to have to "time" the pump on number 6 cylinder instead of number 1 cylinder. If it would have been EXACTLY 180 degrees off, timing on number 6 would have been fine. Injpumped said there are 24 splines on the governor weight retainer where the "mark" is scribed. 360 degrees divided by 24 splines is 15 pump degrees per spline, which would transfer to 30 crankshaft degrees for one spline off. Doesn't seem possible that it could have been that far off. It should have started terrible at that setting, unless I'm figuring it wrong and it was only 7 1/2 degrees advanced instead of 30 degrees ?? |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 7:15am
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Haven't watched the new vid, but did the shop ever say exactly what they found in the pump? ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 7:22am
| He said something to the effect that they sent it to a different shop and he was disappointed that they just tore into it, without checking what the previous position was. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 7:37am
| The new pump shop claimed the pump was set 20% overfueled. No mention of the governor weight retainer being installed wrong as they weren't paying attention when they disassembled it, so it can't be proven, other than it couldn't be timed on #1 before. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 8:12am
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well, 20% over on a 210 pump is just a little over stock for a 220, which is the same engine. 20% over on roller setting is no surprise, but there was no way of knowing how far down the torque screw was set. But, the more you open up the roller setting on a RM pump, the sooner injection begins, when it is loaded to max pump delivery. Now, watching the vids of it pulling the little chisel, it was in no way working it to even stock full load, would guess it was taking about 100hp to pull it. Either the mark itself was placed in the wrong spot, or the retainer was put on completely wrong, which would be off a long way. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: garden_guy
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 12:56pm
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I don't know anything about these engines but I feel like I've learned quite a lot from those videos and this thread. Looking forward to the next one again. |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2023 at 9:30pm
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Oh wow... that engine rebuild.   http://youtu.be/UQbEus5dKuc" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/UQbEus5dKuc timing the alternator belts ... 'failures to do this critical step may result in scored pistons and liners, cracked exhaust valves, and most of all, a bruised ego... ' ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2023 at 10:36pm
| What was that little video supposed to be |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 1:11am
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Link should work... It's from https://www.youtube.com/@JAMSIONLINE" rel="nofollow - Jim's Automotive Machine Shop, Inc. About the Allis 210 that he rebuilt the engine once and then took it down to rebuild the second time after discovering problems stemming from injection pump / timing.. and it is just simply a funny vid about timing your alternator... and the hilarious comments below the vid... Like, "Glad you didn’t put them on backwards or it would discharge the battery while running." ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 12:47pm
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I think I've watched all the vids on this engine. To me the most telling thing was in the post mortem vid showing the injector spray pattern on the #6 piston.
------------- Learning AC...slowly |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 4:00pm
| Yes sorry I watched them all to. Guess I didn’t pick up that it was suppose to be a comedy. I’d want to make sure it ran before I made fun. |
Posted By: garden_guy
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2023 at 9:09pm
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New video just went up today. I'd say she's running pretty good now! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj-B4JFSqmI" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj-B4JFSqmI There was a sister video that went up about potential injector pump failure stuff here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o81RCxEfIEg" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o81RCxEfIEg
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Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2023 at 9:45pm
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Just watched the last video, the tractor sounds good but I’m also quite disappointed with the high thirty’s oil pressure. I would have expected closer to 50 psi on a full rebuild. Heck, my 4K plus hr XT runs 35- 40 psi at 2k rpm after she is warmed up. Maybe the 426 is totally different than a 301 when it comes to oil psi. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2023 at 11:03am
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No more on this thread? This is like when your favorite TV show gets cancelled. The video from the Area Diesel Service guy was fantastic. I watched Jim's videos several times and the Area Diesel Service guy summed it up so well. Looks like about 6 ways to assemble it wrong and get the timing off. Telling was the comment that about 1/2 the pumps they work on have that index tab broken off. Reusing this part could allow the mistake of being off in timing if they mesh the wrong splines. Wonder if that was the case here. So Jim was still left with a knot in his stomach when it was go time with the repaired engine. I would also. How could the owner do a final timing check just before start up? What is this air time test Ed mentioned? What is spill timing, dribble timing? Can they all be done with pump installed (hope so). This engine had timing marks on the pulley. What was the intended purpose for this? I get a knot in my stomach using a hand crank start on an gas engine with magneto. However, I know how to verify the magneto before committing to the crank. There are pressure sensors to activate a timing light, but they don't have good reviews. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2023 at 2:36pm
| Think pump has to be on test stand to air time it. There you have the degree wheel to tell where you are. My 220 had to be air timed after changing shoes for increased fuel delivery. This timing info needs kept safe because you can't use original crank degrees mounting/setting timing. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2023 at 4:08pm
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Roosa and CAV pumps are air timed on the work bench before putting on the test stand. It verifies the pump has been assembled properly. Nothing really magical about it. CAV technically says to pressurize with fuel, but since Stanadyne says air, we all use air, they invented the design afterall. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Kevin210
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2023 at 8:30pm
| I assume you all have seen the tractor running again,wish him good luck this time. |
Posted By: KJCHRIS
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2023 at 10:01pm
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I saw the U tube from the other guy pump shop. I didn't realize there's so many different ways to get a pump timed wrong internally. IT's too bad they didn't get to do the rework on the pump and show us what they found. Memory not what it was & only been 40 years since I had 1 apart !! ------------- AC 200, CAH, AC185D bareback, AC 180D bareback, D17 III, WF. D17 Blackbar grill, NF. D15 SFW. Case 1175 CAH, Bobcat 543B, |