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Why do some diesels require ether and some dont??

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injpumpEd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote injpumpEd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2023 at 8:10am
Ether in AGCO cans was also a full 80% like the deere stuff, but not as many agco dealers around as there are deere dealers lol! I have a couple of cans 79014649 that works good on the pullers. Anything less than 80% will not be very successful in starting the pullers. 
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigal121892 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2023 at 3:11pm
I try not to use ether if at all possible, but the John Deere brand ether, requires a very quick shot, and that is usually all that is needed to get a cold engine started. Some of that cheap ether, you pour it out of the can into the intake, and it wouldn't do a thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CORLEWFARM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2023 at 5:02pm
I have found that most diesels start better if you crank a few seconds wide open. Set a few seconds and put throttle a little above idle and start better in cold weather.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote captaindana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2023 at 5:37pm
Corlewfarm!!! You are absolutely correct in my humble opinion!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 160 allis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2023 at 6:29pm
We have 3 waldon wheel loaders that have the 4bt Cummins engine in them and have had really good luck out of them starting in the cold weather. No need to shout ether to any of them and they have been started at 0° a few times. They usually crank over about 4 times before they fire up at zero° temps but they do fire and they don't have grid heaters or glow plugs. They all started well cold even with over 30,000 hrs on them and the only issue then was injection pump leaking fluid at throttle shaft. Very good engines in my opinion. Since then we now have coolant heaters on them so we can plug them up when it's cold and we have heat as soon as it starts
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2023 at 7:40pm
Thats because of an advance in the injector pump, Uncl had a 5610 Ford open the throttle , sets the advance- it fires up , then throttle it back !  

Edited by DougG - 20 Jan 2023 at 7:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2023 at 7:46pm
Here's a photo of the two kinds of starting fluid I had on hand.


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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2023 at 10:44pm
So to correct the digression, here's the OP's core question:

" I have a Case forklift with a Cummins 4 cylinder engine that will not start at all unless it gets a shot of ether. It is a strong running engine, but wont start without it. What possible causes could make this machine not start without its shot of ether?"
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2023 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

So to correct the digression, here's the OP's core question:

" I have a Case forklift with a Cummins 4 cylinder engine that will not start at all unless it gets a shot of ether. It is a strong running engine, but wont start without it. What possible causes could make this machine not start without its shot of ether?"


We dont' know WHICH Cummins he's got... I can't give him immediate direction of any CUMMINS design, I can only comment on the basics:

Diesels need to crank at at least some particular speed in order to fire the engine.

If you run large volumes of fuel rack on cranking, you are NOT likely to get an ignition as early BECAUSE the unburned fuel is just absorbing latent heat.  Crank it with the throttle to full slow.  Once it's been constent in cranking, crack open the sum and see if it'll wake up. Wink
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2023 at 5:41am
Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

[QUOTE=DaveKamp]
If you run large volumes of fuel rack on cranking, you are NOT likely to get an ignition as early BECAUSE the unburned fuel is just absorbing latent heat.  Crank it with the throttle to full slow.  Once it's been constent in cranking, crack open the sum and see if it'll wake up. Wink

The owner's manual for my subcompact diesel tractor says to open the throttle to a fast idle position and crank over a couple times, then activate the glow plugs for about 20 seconds, then crank the engine. 

Like everyone else, I didn't read the owner's manual until I had it for a couple years. It starts much better that way than leaving it at idle like I had been. IIRC, the owner's manual for one of my AC diesels had similar instructions.

I urge you to read your manual and follow the instructions for your particular engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2023 at 7:29am
Originally posted by WF owner WF owner wrote:

...read your manual and follow the instructions for your particular engine.


YES YES YES!

And while diesel engines are all the same with respect to 'compression ignition'... they're not all the same with respect to HOW they accomplish it.

There's direct, and indirect injection... there's different concepts in head design, rod length to stroke ratios, and compression ratios... so they all have a little different character.

Starting a cold engine, regardless of WHAT type it is, is really one of the hardest events on an engine.  Oil is cold, oil pressure goes from nonexistent, to insane... the starting unit is under tremendous load to just TURN it, and trying to get it spinning FAST enough to bounce past TDC swiftly... the battery is cold... a little trace of moisture in the connections... cold air coming in...   accomplishing that pressure spike hot enough for compression ignition to occur ENOUGH to kick the flywheel hard enough to clear the next several compression events...  the fuel is cold... injection pump and injectors hate that.

Listen to how an old aircraft V12 or radial starts, and you'll notice that it doesn't all start at once... some cylinders hit, while the others are still missing... eventually they pick up, after they've spun a bit and cleared out whatever was fouling.

One of the first diesel-starting challenges I had, was the pony-motor 6cyl Cat mentioned above.  I don't know if they're ALL that way, but the one I worked on had a lever that opened up the valves, so that pony motor exhaust was blown through the cylinders to WARM them.  While it was doing that, it was circulating lubricating oil and coolant (both shared with the prime mover) to get both up in temperature for an easier start.  Spinning the engine for all that time seems silly, but in terms of long life and starting assurance, it's the right thing to do- they designed it that way, and that's one of the biggest advantages of a pony-motor start.  Unlike an electric starter, that pony motor could roll the engine over all day if you keep the starting fuel tank full.

On the locomotives I taught on, four 72vdc electric starting motors were wired up in series-parallel switching so that the crank could be rotated slowly to check for a flooded cylinder.  A leaking injector can put enough stray fuel in a combustion chamber to hydraulically prevent a piston from crossing TDC, and if forced, the cosine angle of crank against the rod can easily bend the rod and crank... so they have a programming sequence in the system to turn it slowly with the electric starter through four complete revolutions of the crank, after that, they bring it up to cranking speed, make sure they have oil pressure (it actually uses a booster pump for 20 seconds or so before cranking) then they tell the fuel management system to processed with fueling.  The fuel management system is full authority, and uses peizoelectric sensors on each head to detect when ignition occurs, and it watches each cylinder for misfires.  It brings on fuel to each cylinder individually, and adjusts it to get ignition, because each cylinder is slightly different, both in initial state, and in running character... so it's like having a mechanic assigned to each carbeurator of an individually carbeurated engine.  Once the engine is running, then it goes through a short warming cycle before it will allow running load (basic power generation), followed by a considerable warmup cycle before it will allow the prime moving load... all to make sure that million-dollar engine exceeds a 5 million-mile lifespan.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2023 at 11:14am
Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

Originally posted by WF owner WF owner wrote:

...read your manual and follow the instructions for your particular engine.

...
One of the first diesel-starting challenges I had, was the pony-motor 6cyl Cat mentioned above.  I don't know if they're ALL that way, but the one I worked on had a lever that opened up the valves, so that pony motor exhaust was blown through the cylinders to WARM them.  While it was doing that, it was circulating lubricating oil and coolant (both shared with the prime mover) to get both up in temperature for an easier start.  Spinning the engine for all that time seems silly, but in terms of long life and starting assurance, it's the right thing to do- they designed it that way, and that's one of the biggest advantages of a pony-motor start.  Unlike an electric starter, that pony motor could roll the engine over all day if you keep the starting fuel tank full...


The D2 and D4 Cats with which I am most familiar used identical pony motors; they used the main diesel engine cooling systems but had separate oil sumps.

The pony exhaust was routed through the diesel's intake manifold in an integral casting to provide pre-heating of the intake air.

I never knew anyone willing (besides myself) to actually crank one of those machines long enough to get it started without ether. Most of the machines I was around were old and tired, my Dad's D2 had nearly 10,000 hours on the clock, mostly skidding logs (that's a LOT of logs). He always wanted a D4 and found one cheap nearby that was REALLY tired, it had so much blowby you couldn't check the oil with the engine running (the proper method) because it just blew oil out the dipstick when you pulled it out; yet that old engine fired right up with a snort of ether.

Standard procedure with those pony-start Cats was to start it in the morning and keep it running until you were done for the day.

Every time I hear my Son-in-law's HD5G fire up with that direct electric starter I just smile Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bigcreek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2023 at 12:24pm
DaveKamp I worked for the railroad for 20 years as conductor, engineer (for a very short while) and yardmaster for the longest time. Ive been away for almost 3 years now but can hear right now in my mind a locomotive starting up. First the alarm then the sound of it slowly cranking until finally coming to life. I never knew about what was really going on in the belly of the beast as it is cranking so that was very interesting information you posted. They certainly dont fire right up so the sounds I would hear as it was winding up makes sense. Trains/power would tie down all the time right outside my yardmaster office window whether it was on the mainline or 3 tracks over where we would park power and so Id hear those things starting up all the time. Interesting information.

On a side note the Case forklift I posted about has a Cummins 4-390 engine in it. Now it does have a slight fuel leak at the fuel injection pump which the mechanic took a look at and said he could fix no problem. I also ordered up an owners manual for this machine. So with that said could a leak at the fuel pump have anything to do with the motor not wanting to start as easily?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DanWi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2023 at 12:35pm
Yes, had an N14 in my Freightliner had a loose line and every morning you would have to crank it awhile to start it. Stopped at a mechanic friend and had him look at it and found one line just needed to be snugged up a little. it would lose prime overnight. When you had it running it seemed fine and would start all day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigcreek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2023 at 12:59pm
HHmmm well maybe thats it then! Ill hope! Ya once it is warm it fires right up. Ill keep you guys posted on if there is any change once the leak is fixed.
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