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can a cut-out relay be repaired?

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Dale (Stonelick) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale (Stonelick) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: can a cut-out relay be repaired?
    Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 2:53pm
The picture is from a 1949 Allis B #96201. I assume it's bad because I can only get an ammeter reading by using a jumper around the relay.  The name on the relay is "Echlin".  I could find no name or serial number on the generator.
1951 CA - 1944 C - 1949 B - Kubota M6800
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 3:22pm
Yes it can be repaired, but not for the cost of a new one. That regulator should be available at any Napa store...Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSeries4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 3:27pm
Replace it.  They are cheap.
'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Dale (Stonelick) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale (Stonelick) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 4:08pm
Thanks.  I thought they might be easy to fix after looking at the internals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred in Pa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 5:18pm
That is not a cut out
He who dies with the most toys is,
nonetheless ,still dead.
If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED.
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Dale (Stonelick) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale (Stonelick) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 5:52pm
Fred: Do you know what it could be?  I told Brenda K at SLE that it was a Voltage Regulator, but she said those aren't used on the Allis B.  She was going to check with her shop guys to see what they think.

If it's the wrong part, maybe that is why I'm not getting a ammeter reading through it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dfwallis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 6:06pm
It is a regulator.  Hopefully there's a part number on it somewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 6:09pm
Google shows it as an Echlin 27-31 , 12 volt voltage regulator.


Since all B's were 6 volt.... begs the question... is yours 6 or 12 volt ?
Can you read tag on the generator ??


Edited by jaybmiller - 08 Jul 2024 at 6:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mdm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 6:36pm
Kinda neat they show you how to polarize it. 
Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 6:50pm
a cutout would have TWO TERMINALS and ONE COIL inside...( and be used on a 6 volt systesm) .... a VOLTAGE REGULATOR would have 3 terminals ( or 4) and 2 -3 coils inside..( and would be used on a 12 v system.. but some 6v have regulators).

Edited by steve(ill) - 08 Jul 2024 at 6:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by DiyDave DiyDave wrote:

Yes it can be repaired, but not for the cost of a new one. That regulator should be available at any Napa store...Wink
A NAPA store actually have a tractor part LOLLOLLOL That's the best laugh I've had all day. For anything made before this century even if the snot nose punks even know want you're talking about the best they can do it the old Central Tractor line before they went out of business "We can order it" .  Going to a NAPA store is about as much of a waste of time as expecting to find what you need at a TSC.



Edited by PaulB - 08 Jul 2024 at 7:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 7:34pm
That is a voltage regulator. Look on the bottom of the unit. There's probably a part number stenciled on it. Dave is right. Echlin is part of Napa. Look real close on that Gennie. It may have "12V" stamped on the chassis. (body)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale (Stonelick) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 8:02pm
Some further messy information:

1.could find no part number on regulator.  Jay's eBay picture shows it stamped in blue ink on galvanized base next to BAT terminal.  My base is painted black, with no part number visible.

2. I must have a regulator for a 12 volt system based on (a) Jay's link to the 12 volt eBay part, and (b) mine has 3 terminals and 3 coils inside, which must confirm that it is a 12 volt part as per Steve's info.

3. I believe my Allis B wants to be a 6 volt (a) I replaced the old dead battery with a 6 volt [I assume the old battery was 6 volt - but maybe not] (b) It has a generator, not an alternator, (c) the battery cables are heavier than the CA that Steve B helped me convert to 12 volt, (d) BUT I had to replace the 12 volt solenoid with a 6 volt to get the starter to work, (e) BUT I had to replace the 12 volt coil with a 6 volt to get the spark plugs to fire, (f) BUT the regulator is a 12 volt, (g) maybe the old deceased owner was in process of converting to a 12 volt system?

4. I cannot find a name or serial number on the generator.

5. An interesting find when I wired brushed the 3 terminals to get a better connection.  (a) the now visible FLD terminal was connected to the generator's positive post with 16g wire. (b) the now visible ARM terminal was connected to the generator's negative post wire heavier gauge black wire.  I think the FLD and ARM wires are reversed - can anyone confirm?

6. I think I flashed the FLD terminal several times to the positive BAT, because....  Obviously I believe this was wrong - should flash the ARM terminal to BAT.

At first light tomorrow, I'll try to right some of these wrongs.  Maybe it will help, but maybe not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 8:11pm
you need to figure out what you WANT... THe old 6 volt systems were POSITIVE GROUND.. thats why some of your wires might look BACKWARD.... Most of the NEW 12 v systems a NEGATIVE GROUND..... a BATTERY has a series of 2 volt CELLS.. If you have 3 round CAPS on top, you have 6v battery... If you have 6 round CAPS ( or two long ones over 3 cells each )... then you have a 12V battery.

Better figure out FIRST what you want to do... stick with the OLD 6v or go with the NEW 12 V ...... 12v battery, 12v coil, 12v regulator... all go TOGETHER.... dont mix and match.

It IS POSSIBLE that they guy took a 6v REGULATOR and put on inplace of the OLD CUT OUT......

How does it CRANK and START with the 6v battery ??  If that is acceptable , then maybe you need a 6v REGULATOR...... The OLD LIGHT SWITCH had a resistor on it to act as an "amp output regulator" along with the CUTOUT.... the new  "REGULATOR" would no longer use the light switch resistor...


Edited by steve(ill) - 08 Jul 2024 at 8:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 8:16pm
MOST 6v systems have the POSITIVE side of the battery GROUNDED... YOURS ??



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 8:26pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale (Stonelick) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 11:00pm
Steve:

Yes, mine has a positive ground.  I'm happy with the 6 volt system and it seems to start and run well, after spending some time and money on it.  So I plan to keep it 6 volt.

My next step in trying to get the generator to charge the battery, is to correct the FLD and ARM wiring on the 12 volt voltage regulator.  So just to clarify since it's a 6 volt positive ground: the ARM terminal should be connected to  the positive post on the generator, and the FLD terminal should be connected to the ground post on the generator. I am not hopeful that this will solve my problem, since it's 12 volt and not a 6 volt regulator.

I'll then see if Brenda Knauss from Sandy Lake Equip can determine what replacement 6 volt Cutout Relay I would need to be compatible with my unknown generator model.

If that fails, I'll take my generator and voltage regulator to a generator repair shop and see if they can sort out what I need to make it work.

I read through the link you sent and noted that OP said he replaced his cutout relay with a voltage regulator, as he understood the regulator replaced the need for a 3 position light switch (1st position is low charge, 2nd position is higher charge, and 3 position is light switch).

Again, thanks to everyone for their help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred in Pa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 6:29am
To save wasting time n money ,take generator to a good electric shop ,and go from there . Don't get all confused to point you make a bigger mess .
He who dies with the most toys is,
nonetheless ,still dead.
If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 8:53am
I read through the link you sent and noted that OP said he replaced his cutout relay with a voltage regulator, as he understood the regulator replaced the need for a 3 position light switch (1st position is low charge, 2nd position is higher charge, and 3 position is light switch).

YEs, that is correct.. A CUTOUT needs the light switch resistor.. A VOLTAGE REGULATOR replaces both of them... I would BET that your present regulator is a 6V type... You need something similar.  A local shop MIGHT be a good idea to ease your mind. They will get you something similar to the picture i posted above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 8:59am
DO NOT BUY THIS.... just showing you such an animal does exist... 6V pos ground.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dfwallis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 10:51am
I bought a 6V regulator from Steiner.  I took it and the gen to a shop and he made sure they both worked properly together.  And he made sure I knew that you DO NOT need the extra .1 ohm resistor that comes with the kit.  The gen/regulator combination supplied the correct voltage and control as-is.  I did rewire the switch such that the first position is lights now.

Edited by dfwallis - 09 Jul 2024 at 10:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale (Stonelick) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 12:28pm
Interesting that the "polarize" instructions are different between the 6 volt and the 12 volt regulators.  For 12 volt you flash the ARM terminal, and for the 6 volt you flash the FLD terminal.

So I have no clue on how to correctly wire a 12 volt regulator, much less a 12 volt regulator on a positive ground with probably a 6 volt generator.  I couldn't find any online Echlin wiring instructions.

Still waiting on Brenda to see if she has any advise.  I'll also try to send message to Steiner tractor.  I'll also search to see if there is a generator repair shop close to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dfwallis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Dale (Stonelick) Dale (Stonelick) wrote:

Interesting that the "polarize" instructions are different between the 6 volt and the 12 volt regulators.  For 12 volt you flash the ARM terminal, and for the 6 volt you flash the FLD terminal.

So I have no clue on how to correctly wire a 12 volt regulator, much less a 12 volt regulator on a positive ground with probably a 6 volt generator.  I couldn't find any online Echlin wiring instructions.

Still waiting on Brenda to see if she has any advise.  I'll also try to send message to Steiner tractor.  I'll also search to see if there is a generator repair shop close to me.

The 6V regulator I bought you flash the ARM terminal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by Dale (Stonelick) Dale (Stonelick) wrote:

...
So I have no clue on how to correctly wire a 12 volt regulator, much less a 12 volt regulator on a positive ground with probably a 6 volt generator.  I couldn't find any online Echlin wiring instructions...


Please, please, DO NOT attempt to use a 12 Volt regulator on a 6 Volt battery! Shocked There is no correct way to wire it.

If you have a 12 Volt battery and a 12 Volt regulator on a 6 Volt generator, the generator will put out 12 volts. For a while. Maybe for a long while. Maybe not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riprock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 1:05pm
The regulator in the ebay picture shows polarizing instructions for a "B" type used by early fords. You removed the field wire and touched it to the bat terminal. Delco used "A" circuit where you use a jumper between arm & Bat terminals to polarize. On a delco if you jumper from fld. terminal to ground the generator should charge wide open, bypassing the regulator. Never touch field to bat on an A circuit.

Edited by Riprock - 09 Jul 2024 at 1:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mdm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 3:52pm
Try to find out what make the generator is and get a 6v voltage regulator to match it. You can then use a regular light switch if you have lights. It will charge better and you can leave it 6v. Just a suggestion.
Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 3:56pm
Terry is right... I was just showing that Echlin DID make a 6v POSITIVE GROUND voltage regulator... YOU DONT WANT THAT SPECIFIC ONE.. but you DO WANT a 6V.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Riprock Riprock wrote:

The regulator in the ebay picture shows polarizing instructions for a "B" type used by early fords. You removed the field wire and touched it to the bat terminal. Delco used "A" circuit where you use a jumper between arm & Bat terminals to polarize. On a delco if you jumper from fld. terminal to ground the generator should charge wide open, bypassing the regulator. Never touch field to bat on an A circuit.

Excellent post.
The original poster showed a photo of an "A" circuit regulator, it is crucial to have the correct type.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 5:38pm
A while back there was a young man posting on here about his WD tractor that had what turned out to be a Ford (?) IIRC, generator scabbed onto it by a previous owner. Never assume!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dfwallis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 5:45pm
Slightly peripherally,  my original switch was completely missing so I bought a rebuilt one from B&B, even though I fully planned to go with a regulator.  I wanted to maximize originality with only a few minor exceptions (regulator and some add-ons).  The switch rebuild was top notch quality I might add.  
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