I wonder what if.....?

After reading about 6-71 and 6-110 detroits in allis crawlers in that thread about the HD15, I got to thinking. Very scary, I know. With allis having started to develop the HD 41 crawler about the same time that they parted ways with Detroit, it made putting a Detroit in it "out of the question." But if they could have used Detroit, would have we seen an HD 41 with a 12V92? Or maybe even a 16V110? Would have been something a person would have been able to hear working. I'm not opposed to the cummins that they did use, nor saying that I'd have rather seen em use a 2 stroker, but just wondering how it would have changed things. Darrel

After reading your thoughts I had to check.  110 series was only offered in in line configuration and built until 1965.  the v series engines pretty much took over with better power to weight/size ratios

Darrel, sorry, I think I went into a snit because I didn't read your question right. But every time the question of what happened to AC comes up it just gets me all het up. I assume and again it's only an assumption there had to be a power struggle within the company and it just got out of hand until someone came along and picked up the pieces. To dang bad.

Darrel the HD41 is my all time favorite dozer. And they could have used two P38's. I don't know about the width but a long time ago there were two engine tug boats used down in the gulf that were the Detroits. Full speed ahead was a racket. Come to think they were probably 110's. Come to think about it further, I think the Cummins were 1710 CI. If they were, man that's big. 

Remember the full industry suffered during that time - between Carter and the energy fiasco , oil shale , and the downturn of industry because of 20% interest rates . 
 IH sold off their industrial line to Dresser , AC had a joint venture with Fiat and the Korean industry of building equipment was also undercutting much of industrial lines . 
 Then look a few years later with the full Ag as well Construction Mfg. doing a implosion of acquisitions and mergers. 
 Remember GM had bought TEREX and was producing machines also so 2 machines powered by Detroit engines - well 1956 AC bought BUDA to have their own engines and move away from Detroit. 
 Yes the HD41 was a specialized machine made for coal fields as a stripping overburden tractor . 
 So much changed and evolved and still is with the advent of Korea, Japan, Italian , and many sub- companies controlled by major Mfg. farming out parts as well as full machines to foreign places . 
 Seems now the EPA and the Tier 4 engines or later will again change much in the industry - the rolling coal or the black smoke of a diesel under load is a thing of the past now - (well some of us still have old machines and still use them - my 2-71 Detroit still screams when throttle is pulled full on when operating it )  

Tad Wicks wrote: The thought of a HD 41 with a TT16V 92 never crossed my mind, but that would have really been something. First the 41 and then the Big Bud 747, it sure would have been impressive. 1000 HP, I think they would had to beef things up a bit but can you imagine a 1472 cu in monster, come to think of it that could have been the HD51 to compete with the D11, as long as we are asking "what if"  All in fun Tad

That's exactly where I was heading to with this thread, Tad. Wasn't sure what model Detroit engines were being manufactured at the time, but only that AC had parted company with Detroit, so it was all irrelevant. But I was hypothetically speaking, that if a Detroit would have been sitting on the shelf for them to grab, and they would have been able to start the project with, like you say, a TT16V 92, I think that the project would have gotten off to a better start than it did with the turbine engine. Darrel

AC problem was not the Cummins engine.......... nothing wrong with a 12V- 1710 motor.

steve(ill) wrote: AC problem was not the Cummins engine.......... nothing wrong with a 12V- 1710 motor.

Oh, I'm not knocking the Cummins engine at all, or blaming that on any of Allis's problems. I don't know if that model Cummins would have been available to them yet in 1955 when they started the HD41 project. If it would have been, it would certainly be a candidate for my hypothetical "what if" Darrel

I think the BUDA popular motor was the 844 inch straight six... That was put into the 21 dozers and a couple bigger wheel loaders, and rear end of double engine scrapers... I don't know what "larger" motor Buda had, but maybe they were more stationary motors and not acceptable for dozers ( 31 - 41 ) ? ..............  the BUDA 844 became the 21000 - 25000 Allis Diesels.

IIRC also used in HD 16's

steve(ill) wrote: I think the BUDA popular motor was the 844 inch straight six... That was put into the 21 dozers and a couple bigger wheel loaders, and rear end of double engine scrapers... I don't know what "larger" motor Buda had, but maybe they were more stationary motors and not acceptable for dozers ( 31 - 41 ) ? ..............  the BUDA 844 became the 21000 - 25000 Allis Diesels.

You can add to that list the 16000 and the 17000 which was a 16000 but with a "small" turbo added.

ACjack wrote:     Here's something you guys might be interested in concerning the HD 41 and the engines that were used in it.    Around 73/74 an AC designed and built V12 with 800 HP was shipped down to Springfield and we were told it was going into an HD41 for testing and we were also told that the Cummings engines were having piston scoring problems.

That's a cool piece of info. Would like to know where that engine ended up at........probably in the smelter...? Darrel

Ian Beale wrote: Hasn't that engine been mentioned in previous threads?

   Yes. They built just over 50 of them. I was one of the builders of the 1st 12 "production" engines before I got into QC.

460 series C scraper had a big Detroit in it, 12V71 @ 456 hp, right up to mid 70s, not sure when they quit making them, shortly after the Fiat merger I think.