I wonder what if.....?
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=146248
Printed Date: 29 Sep 2024 at 3:25pm
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Topic: I wonder what if.....?
Posted By: darrel in ND
Subject: I wonder what if.....?
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2018 at 12:53pm
| After reading about 6-71 and 6-110 detroits in allis crawlers in that thread about the HD15, I got to thinking. Very scary, I know. With allis having started to develop the HD 41 crawler about the same time that they parted ways with Detroit, it made putting a Detroit in it "out of the question." But if they could have used Detroit, would have we seen an HD 41 with a 12V92? Or maybe even a 16V110? Would have been something a person would have been able to hear working. I'm not opposed to the cummins that they did use, nor saying that I'd have rather seen em use a 2 stroker, but just wondering how it would have changed things. Darrel |
Replies:
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2018 at 1:12pm
| Well Darrel. I think mismanagement and greed would still have killed AC. Obviously they held no loyalty for AC, only the almighty dollar. It's amazing how much technical know how they had and what all they could build and still sold it all off. And we have no idea, at least I don't, of how much investers lost. By the way, has Agco been sold? Seems like I heard something about it. Oh well. |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2018 at 1:26pm
|
After reading your thoughts I had to check. 110 series was only offered in in line configuration and built until 1965. the v series engines pretty much took over with better power to weight/size ratios ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2018 at 3:01pm
|
Thanks for that info, Cal. I wasn't sure what would have been available for them from Detroit, if that would have been an option. I think anything would have been a better option to start with than the jet engine they chose. Darrel |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2018 at 3:20pm
| Darrel, sorry, I think I went into a snit because I didn't read your question right. But every time the question of what happened to AC comes up it just gets me all het up. I assume and again it's only an assumption there had to be a power struggle within the company and it just got out of hand until someone came along and picked up the pieces. To dang bad. |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2018 at 7:14pm
| No, Leon. I was in no way, shape or form thinking about this having any other outcome with Allis Chalmers survival. Just the story of how the HD 41 evolved is one of my favorite allis chalmers stories. I wish I could find my book that has that story in it. The book is allis chalmers construction and industrial equipment, by Norm Swinford. In that story, it tells how in 1955, Allis set out to build the world's largest crawler tractor. Their first attempt was to put a turbine (jet) engine in a proto type. That was an epic failure, for obvious reasons. Next attempt was two diesel engines in one machine, but that didn't work out either. The final attempt was what went into production, and that was with a V12 cummins putting out 525 HP, in 1969. And even after 14 years in development, it was still almost twice as large as the next closest competitor's machine. Just kind of thinking that initially, having a six to 800 HP engine to drop into the project would probably have knocked off about 10 years of development. Just hypothetically speaking here. Not trying to cause any up-roars. darrel |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 8:12pm
| Darrel the HD41 is my all time favorite dozer. And they could have used two P38's. I don't know about the width but a long time ago there were two engine tug boats used down in the gulf that were the Detroits. Full speed ahead was a racket. Come to think they were probably 110's. Come to think about it further, I think the Cummins were 1710 CI. If they were, man that's big. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 6:24am
| Best I can tell from all the availed data, Allis was stretched too thin in too many high value low repeat consumer industries. Power generation, build a station and it runs for decades before needed revamps, same with the transformers and motors, then the equipment, had too great a lifespan unlike Deere and Case HE in the day that were basically run to destruction and buy new, Cat was altogether too expensive but had the facilities and the finance as they were not into so many other industries. Farming took a hit as did the HE industry in the mid 70's, fuel crisis, power generation decreases in demand of facilities and so on. Major customers dried up, Nukes that used the electric motors as the facility I worked(and had tons of AC machines) were stopped by TMI, coal plants had other issues and just a market dry up drove Allis into the dirt one final time. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 9:49am
|
Remember the full industry suffered during that time - between Carter and the energy fiasco , oil shale , and the downturn of industry because of 20% interest rates . IH sold off their industrial line to Dresser , AC had a joint venture with Fiat and the Korean industry of building equipment was also undercutting much of industrial lines . Then look a few years later with the full Ag as well Construction Mfg. doing a implosion of acquisitions and mergers. Remember GM had bought TEREX and was producing machines also so 2 machines powered by Detroit engines - well 1956 AC bought BUDA to have their own engines and move away from Detroit. Yes the HD41 was a specialized machine made for coal fields as a stripping overburden tractor . So much changed and evolved and still is with the advent of Korea, Japan, Italian , and many sub- companies controlled by major Mfg. farming out parts as well as full machines to foreign places . Seems now the EPA and the Tier 4 engines or later will again change much in the industry - the rolling coal or the black smoke of a diesel under load is a thing of the past now - (well some of us still have old machines and still use them - my 2-71 Detroit still screams when throttle is pulled full on when operating it ) ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: Tad Wicks
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 11:34am
|
The thought of a HD 41 with a TT16V 92 never crossed my mind, but that would have really been something. First the 41 and then the Big Bud 747, it sure would have been impressive. 1000 HP, I think they would had to beef things up a bit but can you imagine a 1472 cu in monster, come to think of it that could have been the HD51 to compete with the D11, as long as we are asking "what if" All in fun Tad |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 12:05pm
That's exactly where I was heading to with this thread, Tad. Wasn't sure what model Detroit engines were being manufactured at the time, but only that AC had parted company with Detroit, so it was all irrelevant. But I was hypothetically speaking, that if a Detroit would have been sitting on the shelf for them to grab, and they would have been able to start the project with, like you say, a TT16V 92, I think that the project would have gotten off to a better start than it did with the turbine engine. Darrel |
Tad Wicks wrote:Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 12:21pm
|
Not certain the two parted company as Detroit would sell to anyone, IHC as a point or Ford in trucks. Biggest downfall was Terex/Euclid was using DD engines, a singular line fed by GM funds, eventually a side department OF GM. https://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/index.php/Euclid_and_Terex_History" rel="nofollow - https://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/index.php/Euclid_and_Terex_History Why feed the competition your engines. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 1:25pm
|
AC problem was not the Cummins engine.......... nothing wrong with a 12V- 1710 motor. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 5:26pm
From what I've read, Allis decided they were done with GM/Detroit due to GM buying Euclid, which was competition. So what you say is partly true; GM would have gladly kept on selling engines to Allis. Allis is the one that broke off the marriage. Darrel |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 5:31pm
Oh, I'm not knocking the Cummins engine at all, or blaming that on any of Allis's problems. I don't know if that model Cummins would have been available to them yet in 1955 when they started the HD41 project. If it would have been, it would certainly be a candidate for my hypothetical "what if" Darrel |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 5:52pm
| That was about the time Allis became interested in Buda was it not? Building a in-house engine as they did for the other tractors may have been just too much. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 6:05pm
|
I think the BUDA popular motor was the 844 inch straight six... That was put into the 21 dozers and a couple bigger wheel loaders, and rear end of double engine scrapers... I don't know what "larger" motor Buda had, but maybe they were more stationary motors and not acceptable for dozers ( 31 - 41 ) ? .............. the BUDA 844 became the 21000 - 25000 Allis Diesels. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 7:49pm
After GM bought Euclid and allis decided to end doing business with them, Allis went looking for an engine company to supply them with engines. They found Buda and bought em. That was 1955. The same time they set out to build the world's largest dozer, and began the project with the turbine engine. Darrel |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 10:44pm
|
IIRC also used in HD 16's |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2018 at 9:35am
|
When you wondering why AC went turbine - REMEMBER - AC went fuel cell on a farm tractor to advance the industry . Some of the last industrial production work I was working on was maintaining equipment to produce titanium fuel cell plates for GM - 270 plates were used in this cell and company was prototyping about 1 complete set of plates per day chemical milling titanium plates with etched channels for the passage of vapors to produce electrical power of approximate 150 HP- GM acquired the rights and design from AC ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2018 at 1:10pm
You can add to that list the 16000 and the 17000 which was a 16000 but with a "small" turbo added. |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2018 at 1:23pm
|
Here's something you guys might be interested in concerning the HD 41 and the engines that were used in it. Around 73/74 an AC designed and built V12 with 800 HP was shipped down to Springfield and we were told it was going into an HD41 for testing and we were also told that the Cummings engines were having piston scoring problems. |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2018 at 2:10pm
That's a cool piece of info. Would like to know where that engine ended up at........probably in the smelter...? Darrel |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2018 at 4:25pm
|
Hasn't that engine been mentioned in previous threads? |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2018 at 5:24pm
Yes. They built just over 50 of them. I was one of the builders of the 1st 12 "production" engines before I got into QC. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2018 at 8:07pm
| As a kid probably late 60's,was at IL state fair.Pretty sure that was when the 41 was "new". Was one at the fairgrounds with a B1 or B10 on the hood. It had two in line 6cyl diesel engines side by side. It was HUGE!!!! |
Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 11:54am
| 460 series C scraper had a big Detroit in it, 12V71 @ 456 hp, right up to mid 70s, not sure when they quit making them, shortly after the Fiat merger I think. |