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Stock tractor pulling question

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Gary in da UP View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 4:32pm
 I seem to be the only one here that has only pulled stock tractors, and had fun doing it.
 I resisted ( easily ) the idea that  "more power" ,  more rpm,  taller tires (38's ) , and pulling faster class's would be more challenging i.e. "more fun "  Of course , I had to pay more attention to track conditios, tire pressure, drawbar and weight position to win.... but I did win.... sometimes against 30+ tractors in my "slow,  3.5 mph, uncut tire stock appearing engine class".    Never had the head off my WD 45 or my D17, so both of my old pullers were  " right off the hay rake" stock as far as I know.    I always tuned my tractors, so as not to be embarrassed to have it  flub its way down the track, but never used a timing light on either,  I prefer using a vacuum gauge as my tuning tool. Probably shouldn't mention that little secret.    Any way, what do others on here think?   Is it really more fun to spend  multiple thousands to compete against a half dozen or so in a class ? Or is it more fun to  "run what ya brung , hope ya brung enuff" and win  a class with  a couple dozen entries?
  I will admit to building a new tractor... An unstyled WC with Gleaner/ D19 power,, but again the head has not been off... its fresh off the C-2,   but  I am building this for the fun of it....never seen a 6 cylinder in a WC ,and it is to be as much a "touring "  tractor for going on rides, such as the Big Mac ride here in Michigan , As a puller only one club that I know of will allow me to pull this thing when its done.
   I will add that the WD45 ran 14.9 X28's on 12" rims, the D17 ran 16.9X28's ( which are on my WC now) and 18.4 X26 at the end .  How I have  setup my tractors defies what I hear so many say is just plain wrong  if you want to win......
 I reckon  sometimes its better to be lucky ,    than  good, eh?
 
 Is spending more money, going faster ( maybe) equate to more fun in pulling?
  If you reply, give the particulars on rules , speed limits, so we compare apples to apples.
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Larry(OH) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 4:45pm
i used to race Jeeps and had a vac gauge in it to tune the carb with...good little "secret"  Was taught that trick by the guy the always ran just a tick better than me
'40 WC puller,'50 WD puller,'50 M puller '65 770 Ollie

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Larry(OH) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 4:48pm
I have done that also..fun to beat the big $$..my Jeep was like that, bone stock..at first and was protested. After they seen the head bolts heads were all but rusted off, the guy said he screwed up and I got an extra 100 bucks that day of his money.  It is fun just trying to squeek that last tenth of an inch over the next guy
'40 WC puller,'50 WD puller,'50 M puller '65 770 Ollie

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Charlie175 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie175 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 4:54pm
I only pull stock classes, 3 MPH for us. I enjoy it. I like seeing "stock" tractors pull, however you will quickly find the ones that have major guts on the inside.

I'd like to tune my 17 better though.
Charlie

'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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Carl(NWWI) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl(NWWI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 5:28pm
Pull a stock WD-45 at antique pulls, usually does pretty good against 20-30 tractors, brought home a lot of 1st-3rd place trophies. I love pulling, no matter what it is, I usually hit about 20 some pulls a year, sometimes two in one day, pull the WD and WD-45 during the day, then go home, throw all the weights on the 190XT, and pull that the same night. It always fun and relaxing. Also pull another WD-45 with duals, that's always fun too!

Carl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 8:22pm
You've seen what I pull Gary, and even bought one from me, was just as much fun with the old beater as it is with the "might be modified WC".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 9:32pm
I bought a rough old straight 190 back in 1990 , put good Safemark tires on it, 18.4-34,s and went farm pulling, i always read the track good and took that old 190 to 1 st place a bunch of times !!!That was great as most guys were blowin + going, that ole 190 just cruised right thru! ! Farm/ stock pulling is fun as long as the players arent bending rules too much!
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Charlie175 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie175 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 6:59am
This is why I stay out of the big boys classes around here. 

This is a "stock" Ford

[TUBE]http://youtu.be/I1KHk5lHmTs[/TUBE]


Charlie

'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonDittmar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 8:42am

GAry, we finally invested in the speed control for our sled so for the 2013 season we will have a MPH limit, not sure what that is yet......

Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"

1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BennyLumpkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 11:02am
Farm stock around here allows 5k rpm Farmalls lol....it's ridiculous but the old WC is fun
Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
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Gary in da UP View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary in da UP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 11:08am
 Don ,our club years ago was 4 or 4.5.... was lowered to 3.5 because more big tractors were abusing the transfer sled. Your clubs sled is stout, I would like to see 4mph.  BTW , I always thought your second gear rule was fair for all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ACFarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Charlie175 Charlie175 wrote:

This is why I stay out of the big boys classes around here. 

This is a "stock" Ford

[TUBE]http://youtu.be/I1KHk5lHmTs[/TUBE]


Looks like some of the "Farm Stock" tractors around here...
Making A living everyday farming with and working on Allis Equipment
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie175 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 12:13pm
Some places I go have the 1st gear rule which I like
Charlie

'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrgoodwrench Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 5:25pm
just curious what is considered "stock" where you guys pull
There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kip-Utah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 8:16pm
With one exception all of our pullers are really just well tuned stockers with nothing more exotic than using a CA governor spring on our B and C. The exception is still nothing too wild, just a styled WC with high-crop gears & a WD45 engine turning about 2000 rpm. Even this one has uncut stock size tires on the original 8" wide rims. We run either 3mph or 4.5 mph farm stock. Dad has won lots of hardware with a bone stock 37 WC that even runs a mis-matched set of tires (one 33 degree Firestone & one 45 degree Goodyear). We have blast with our stockers!! Kip
HANSEN'S OLD ORANGE IRON. Showing, Pulling, & Going!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonDittmar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 7:13am
Originally posted by Gary in da UP Gary in da UP wrote:

 Don ,our club years ago was 4 or 4.5.... was lowered to 3.5 because more big tractors were abusing the transfer sled. Your clubs sled is stout, I would like to see 4mph.  BTW , I always thought your second gear rule was fair for all.
I am leaning to 4MPH, with our new last year "FIELD READY Farm Stock class going to 3.5MPH. We meet on JAN5th to discuss all of this, then the paperwork will go out in the mail. We going to see you at some pulls in the 2013 season.
 
The 2nd gear rule was far to a degree, its just some tractors have a faster 2nd gear than others and we had some upset people over the deal. The 2nd gear rule was invented for our old stone boat, and it worked fine for that, but the rule became obsolete when we built the "Stress Test"
Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"

1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 8:19am

Around here most stock classes for the lighter weight tractors like we're talking about here is 4 mph.  We typically have hard clay trackd and short chains.  A good running WD45 can be killed in low gear more times than not.

I've got sharp 38" tires on mine, in low gear it will hit 4 mph and need to be held back a little, but it'll power out probably half the time. Engine isn't anything to special, 11.25 to 1 compression 240 CID with some head, manifold and carb work and a stock cam degreed in differently, Murphys rockers.  No idea if it's got 50 hp or 70.  Probably never go on a dyno to find out either, never had a timeing light but I do have a vac gauge in the intake manifold plugging the hole.
 
It's beat up on much bigger engines, but it's been beat by some pretty stock ones also.  Sometimes a little shorter tire lets them crawl further before killing.  It's alwayse fun to take it and see how it'll do.  A guy can get 2nd in a class of 25 one day, and 4th in a class of 7 another day.
 
I don't like gear rules, but I see the point sometimes, say I have a WC with tall tires and in low gear it'll go pretty fast compared to a D-17 in low gear.  At the end of the day though it's best to have a few drinks and bs with friends.  If the winner buys with the $20 he won, we all still donate to the Lions Club, FFA or whoever at the end of the day.  
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary in da UP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 9:29am
wi50,  I  agree with what your saying, but I have a question for you.   I have always thought that a compression ratio...above 10-1 or so  works against low end lugging power on a good bitin' track right at the end....seems to help douse the fire,  just when you most need it  , where lower pressure seems to lug better?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 9:47am
you're absolutly right Gary.  Good gas and retarded timeing really help it lug.  It also stays up top a little longer with a little higher compression, which depending on can help.  It just gets further down the track before it needs to lug.
 
One thing I take into account is that these tractor engines are CHOKED.  11 to 1 in the Allis is like 9 to 1 in a Chevy.... sort of.
 
There was a fella here that took an old D-17 diesel out of the weeds.  It didn't even have electronics other than a rigged starter soelnoid.  Put some pressed steel wheels and good tires used for duals on one of the working tractors on it and went pullin.  Nothing in it and the sick old diesel wouldn't make 50 hp on the dyno.  He did more winning with that thing as it would never kill and didn't have enough to break the tires loose.
 
I send a lot combinations out, and most of them are in the 10 to 10.5 to 1 compression ratio for people.  Those motors lug well and people don't have to be so fussy about them.  12 to 1 and you really need to pay attention.  I really like shooting for 10.5 to 1 and if they come out a little shy, that's better yet.
 
I'm restoreing an Unstyled WC and building a motor for it right now.  It was either buy an OH kit or make my own.  Useing free, leftover, otherwise junk, and cheap parts. I made a 4.28 bore, 4.85 stroke engine.  It's targeted at 8.5 to 1.  I don't want to have to pay attention to the gas..... or really anything on it.  BB Chevy pistons, a few hours makeing John Deere liners fit the block, offset grinding an otherwise junk crank and a trial set of billet connecting rods getting the tooling and processes figured out. It's more of an overhaul but if it's got a little snap and gets to go play once in a while that'll give the kids something to pull with when they get older. 


Edited by wi50 - 20 Dec 2012 at 9:55am
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary in da UP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 10:49am
I know exactly what you mean by choked..... I have seen the results of new to the sport , or  well intentioned , but mis-informed pullers fitting larger carbs, for more power ! , need more power! , only to find that their engine gets lazier due to slower induction velocity.
  Thats why for the small fish in a small pond pulling I do, I think its hard to beat the way  "Mother Allis "  engineered them. 
 Case in point , a few years ago I restored a "57 Chevy , engine was junk...old truck block with two different heads etc.  So I installed a turn-key  ZZ4 crate engine. Came with a 750 Holley, owner thought it ran stong, until I borrowed a 650 Holley and put that on.... It was amazing how that engine woke up.  Probably would suffer  above 5500 or so  but for the street it was sweet.
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I have done rather well with my D19 and I know that it is just stock.   Pulling in the 7500 to 8500 paced classes, most of them non turbo.  I'm sure there are some tractors in there that are "souped" up a bit, but I am running stock. I did put dished rims on the back with 18.4 x 38's on the back as that's as big as we are allowed to run and I found a D19 narrow front for it and have a set of six bolt 15" rims/tires on it.   And weight brackets to add weight to get up to 8500.  I have been pulling in 1st high and most of the time, I lose enough juice at the end, that I go down to 1st low and finish.   Out of six times pulling last year, I think I placed 2nd once and 3rd twice.   Not bad for the first year and I'm still shaking out bugs.   This winter the head is getting pulled off as it needs a good valve job and valve guides.   I will also tear into the transmission and go over some things and make sure it is all up to snuf.   I guess I could cheat like the rest but I am more then happy with it's performance just the way it is. 


Edited by ChuckLuedtkeSEWI - 20 Dec 2012 at 12:43pm
1955 WD45 diesel 203322 was my dad's tractor, 1966 D15 23530, 1961 HD3 Crawler 1918, 1966 D17 IV 83495, 1937 WC 41255, 1962 D19 6221
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 3:09pm
2 engines with bore and stroke is equal the one with the highest compression ratio will have more torque.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary in da UP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 4:49pm
 I know its wishfull thinking , but I was hoping not to hear from the peanut gallery.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrgoodwrench Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 9:32pm
i think he's got the math right on this one...but higher comp. brings more hassels with it after a point and too much lug with high comp can detonate and go bad in a hurry
There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlpankey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2012 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Mrgoodwrench Mrgoodwrench wrote:

i think he's got the math right on this one...but higher comp. brings more hassels with it after a point and too much lug with high comp can detonate and go bad in a hurry
Its why I run methanol theres a remedy to every problem

Edited by mlpankey - 21 Dec 2012 at 9:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC200Puller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2012 at 6:07pm
I just can't believe that as smart as the peanut man is that he is screwing around with a little gas engine and we haven't been watching him on the television running with the NTPA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carl(NWWI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2012 at 10:27pm
I hear ya Dave. Seems like such a pro, but nothing to show.

Pank, this says stock tractor pulling question. You have no reason to be taking over this thread either. Leave to us who actually pull and pull with stock tractors.

Thanks Much.
Carl

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrgoodwrench Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2012 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

Originally posted by Mrgoodwrench Mrgoodwrench wrote:

i think he's got the math right on this one...but higher comp. brings more hassels with it after a point and too much lug with high comp can detonate and go bad in a hurry
Its why I run methanol theres a remedy to every problem
  
as i'm still planning my puller i've been reading the rules from many pulling clubs and have seen none that allow methanol in a "stock" type class...most won't even let water meth in hot farm diesels
There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wi50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2012 at 6:16am
Come on guys, think just a little. When you're 90 to 100 feet BACK from the leaders does anyone care what you do?

In my past experiences people care about the winners, some help the loosers when the loosers deserve help. When they don't though they get laughed at and take up lie telling on the "net.

This keyboard commando clown isn't worth any one of our time anymore. He's skipped from one lie to another. The peanut gallery is reguarded as the back seats or people who's opinions are insignificant........

Back on topic (and a little story telling) though I must be the worst driver ever trying to go 4 mph and pay attention to tires, brakes, letting off to maintain traction etc. I drive an NTPA alcohol light super stock tractor and it's easier than trying to figure out a "stock" tractor. Put all the weight you can on the front and set the drawbar to where you hope to be able to controll it for that track. Set the seat so I can stiff leg the clutch, hold the brakes for all they are worth. Push the go stick ahead and she'll go when ready. 2 seconds in the tires hook, the front lifts and then hopefully sit back and enjoy the ride. Tap brakes verry early for slight steering corrections, to late and you go all over the place.

Edited by wi50 - 22 Dec 2012 at 6:24am
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary in da UP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2012 at 10:21am
Originally posted by mlpankey mlpankey wrote:

Originally posted by Mrgoodwrench Mrgoodwrench wrote:

i think he's got the math right on this one...but higher comp. brings more hassels with it after a point and too much lug with high comp can detonate and go bad in a hurry
Its why I run methanol theres a remedy to every problem
 
 Is your problem solver really methanol?   Or are you running a  meth lab in the back room? and again , simply confused the two? They are not interchangable you know....
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